|
Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 57
Last seen: 13 years, 19 days
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14053798 - 03/02/11 10:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I think nuking an entire country would cause more people to turn to terrorist organisations, not less.
Maybe that's just me.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: Ygor]
#14053870 - 03/02/11 10:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
It is just you. Weakness, not strength, encourages attacks.
--------------------
|
Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 57
Last seen: 13 years, 19 days
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14053877 - 03/02/11 10:47 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Really? You don't think public opinion would turn against the US if it nuked a country and killed a few million innocents?
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: Ygor]
#14053975 - 03/02/11 11:05 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
How is that forcing?
--------------------
|
Subetai
Nigerian Prince


Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 14
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14054085 - 03/02/11 11:27 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Once again a failure to follow a point. What is the objective? To prevent any more 9/11 nurseries from operating under state protection. We could certainly achieve that by making Afghanistan glow for a thousand years. We choose not to.
Yes, I'm sure nuking an entire country of 20 million people, many of whom had fought against the "government" of the time, and who have a widespread diaspora over western Europe and America, would have stopped terrorism. Yup. Definitely. Because terrorism isn't at all a constant tactical method used throughout history, and so nukes would obviously work, much as if you used nuclear warfare to prevent nations from supporting the use of ambush tactics.
The other amusing thing about such a bone-headed proposition is that it was Pakistan who was the biggest state sponsor of terrorism in the region. The ISI and military backed the Taliban, who backed Al-Qaeda, who helped to train the Kashmiri and Uzbek and Chechen militants. And Pakistan risked nuclear war with India over its sponsorship of terrorism in 2002. It wasn't the possibility of nuclear war which forced them to back down, either.
Quote:
See cold war. Also look up deterrent in the dictionary.
Oh, so those nuclear weapons are deterring violence against American troops in insurgencies in the Middle East, are they? Wow, that must be why Afghanistan and Iraq capitulated immediately, then became freedom-loving liberal democracies.
Do try and keep up with the context of the disccusion instead of dishonestly expanding the scope of the conversation in an attempt to score cheap points, there's a good fellow.
-------------------- "Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand." -- Mark Twain
|
Subetai
Nigerian Prince


Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 14
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14054094 - 03/02/11 11:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: It is just you. Weakness, not strength, encourages attacks.
Absolutely. This is why terrorists, who are frequently small bands of badly armed and poorly trained individuals, frequently target the most powerful nation in the history of the world. Because weakness invites attacks, and the USA is clearly weak.
Or something.
-------------------- "Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand." -- Mark Twain
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: Subetai]
#14054116 - 03/02/11 11:33 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
You really cannot understand what the word "force" means, can you
Nuclear weapons act as a deterrent when your enemy believes you will use them. Overwhelming superiority acts as a deterrent when your enemy believes you will use. The enemy oft times engineers its attacks just up to the point where it thinks you will stop refraining. The ugly fact you guys cannot grasp is we are not forced into any restraint. We choose it. For assorted reasons. But we most certainly are not forced.
--------------------
|
Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 57
Last seen: 13 years, 19 days
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14054230 - 03/02/11 11:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think anyone is arguing that the US is forced into not using nukes.
I'm saying that using nukes would cause more people to become sympathetic to terrorist organisations. Simple cause and effect.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: Ygor]
#14054365 - 03/02/11 12:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Or maybe they'll get mad at the assholes who provoked it
--------------------
|
Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 57
Last seen: 13 years, 19 days
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14054394 - 03/02/11 12:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I doubt it. The reaction to the US's perceived transgressions so far has been to radicalise more Muslims.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
|
Net
Official Mr Shoebat Lackey



Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 32
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14054594 - 03/02/11 01:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: You really cannot understand what the word "force" means, can you
Nuclear weapons act as a deterrent when your enemy believes you will use them. Overwhelming superiority acts as a deterrent when your enemy believes you will use. The enemy oft times engineers its attacks just up to the point where it thinks you will stop refraining. The ugly fact you guys cannot grasp is we are not forced into any restraint. We choose it. For assorted reasons. But we most certainly are not forced.
How about you specifically define your criteria for "forced"?
-------------------- “In all institutions from which the cold wind of open criticism is excluded, an innocent corruption begins to grow like a mushroom - for example, in senates and learned societies” —Friedrich Nietzsche
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: Ygor]
#14054662 - 03/02/11 01:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Ygor said: I doubt it. The reaction to the US's perceived transgressions so far has been to radicalise more Muslims.
This is the typical rejoinder of two groups 1. Muslims 2. Surrender monkeys. Transgressions? You want to talk transgressions?
--------------------
|
Canis latrans
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: Subetai]
#14054711 - 03/02/11 01:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Subetai said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Canis latrans said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Their weapons were muskets and swords. Welcome to the 21st century
This is also the same century in which one of the most technologically advanced militaries in the world is forced to bribe locals and pay off warlords to just be allowed to drive along roads we are helping build without being blown up too much.
We aren't forced to do that at all. We could turn the whole fucking country into glass in a few hours. We choose not to.
And why is that, do you think? Could it be because that using nuclear weapons would not actually help achieve any of the objectives in those countries where the USA is fighting local or Islamist insurgencies? Or does the USA not choose to use them because of some antiquated adherence to the Marquess of Queensbury rules?
And what use are weapons which don't actually help you achieve your goals, again?
I think our good chap Zappa is missing the point.
Say we were to glass the entire nation. Which one are we referring to? Iraq? We have mostly pulled out of there, I know this because my unit was one of the ones responsible for the coordination and transportation of the property that was being pulled out. It would at this time serve little purpose for us to nuke them into a radioactive window. Afghanistan on the other hand is an utter mess, between the corrupt government, warlords, who may or may not be Al Qaeda, and actual insurgent forces. It is also a highly mountainous nation. Do we have enough nuclear ordinance to glass the entire country? And even if we were to nuke them as much as we can, do you think the neighboring nations would appreciate the fallout? Or that in doing so we would have reduced if not removed the export of heroin and the possible export of rare earth metals? Never mind the massive public and international outcry against this. Say we did just nuke the crap out 'Stan, we are now short a crap ton of nuclear weapons, there goes our nuclear deterrent. A nuclear deterrent is only good against other nations with ICBM and nuclear capability. It is not good against terrorist organizations whom would use are unjustified murder of innocent Muslims as well as the destruction of their lands to swell their ranks.
So explain to me again how our nuclear deterrent is supposed to be helping us. And then explain to me how we aren't forced to pay bribes to private security firms that run by warlords and/or terrorists. And while you are at, please explain to me how exactly we are fighting the terrorists when most of the time the guys planting the IEDs in 'Stan are the guys living in the villages we drive by that do so not for political or ideological reasons but because they were coerced, paid or someone in the US Military accidentally hurt/maimed/killed his family or destroyed property of his.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: Canis latrans]
#14054820 - 03/02/11 01:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not missing anything. We aren't forced to do anything. Should we choose we can impose our will to great effect. Nothing physical prevents it. Mauritania cannot turn Tunisia into glass. We can. We can turn anyplace into glass. We can turn the whole fucking planet into glass.
Three nations, at least, can make that claim.
The greatest deterrent, and granted that without the ability there is none, is will.
--------------------
|
Net
Official Mr Shoebat Lackey



Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 32
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: Net]
#14054851 - 03/02/11 02:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Net said: How about you specifically define your criteria for "forced"?
-------------------- “In all institutions from which the cold wind of open criticism is excluded, an innocent corruption begins to grow like a mushroom - for example, in senates and learned societies” —Friedrich Nietzsche
|
Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 57
Last seen: 13 years, 19 days
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14055001 - 03/02/11 02:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Ygor said: I doubt it. The reaction to the US's perceived transgressions so far has been to radicalise more Muslims.
This is the typical rejoinder of two groups 1. Muslims 2. Surrender monkeys. Transgressions? You want to talk transgressions?
Perceived transgressions. Do try and keep up.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
|
Canis latrans
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14055542 - 03/02/11 04:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I'm not missing anything. We aren't forced to do anything. Should we choose we can impose our will to great effect. Nothing physical prevents it. Mauritania cannot turn Tunisia into glass. We can. We can turn anyplace into glass. We can turn the whole fucking planet into glass.
Three nations, at least, can make that claim.
The greatest deterrent, and granted that without the ability there is none, is will.
So we, the US, have enough ordinance at our disposal to turn the entire planet to glass without any outside assistance? And although still less ridiculous, do we have enough ordinance to turn all of Libya into glass? I would like to debate these points with you, but it seems as though you are in your own little dream land brought about too many psychotropic chemicals, and therefore are pulling things from your behind.
|
TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14055678 - 03/02/11 04:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: That has nothing to do with your stupid assertion that the strongest military in the history of the Earth is forced to bribe people. It isn't.
Sure as fuck is. We're doing it right now, have been for years.
And America isn't the strongest military. It's just the most expensive.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
|
TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14055685 - 03/02/11 04:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Ygor said: I doubt it. The reaction to the US's perceived transgressions so far has been to radicalise more Muslims.
This is the typical rejoinder of two groups 1. Muslims 2. Surrender monkeys. Transgressions? You want to talk transgressions?
And THIS ^ is the standard response of the empty-headed Rush Limbaugh fan.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
|
Trufflicious
Truffle Hunter


Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 60
Loc: Central California
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
|
Re: Iranian Overthrow of Governmen - Imminence or Transience? [Re: TGRR]
#14055830 - 03/02/11 05:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The amount of transgression perpetrated by the west far exceeds anything any terrorist organization or country may have done... You can't nuke anywhere, at all.
PHYSICALLY I can come to your house and shit on your doorstep, but then I would be in a little trouble wouldn't I? PHYSICALLY we can drop our arsenal of nuclear weapons a country, but I don't think you really understand the fallout. I also don't think there would be any point in time where that would ever be considered a realistic option.
There really is no sense in arguing with you, because you are the same person who looks at wikileaks helicopter vidoes and says "Shouldn'ta brought your kids to a battlezone".
On the point of Iran, I can only hope that they are able to get back on track after 58 years, though, it's definitely far off. I am encouraged that there is still support in the streets for Mousavi, but it is still not enough.
-------------------- “He is like a man using a candle to look for the sun”
|
|