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Hakim0777
aka RACKBONE!!!




Registered: 08/25/06
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Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way?
#14035765 - 02/27/11 12:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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And why exactly its such a fucking problem apparently?
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777] 1
#14035874 - 02/27/11 01:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hakim0777 said: And why exactly its such a fucking problem apparently?
Socialism: Spending a few months in Canada.
Communism: Going to the Department of Motor Vehicles for the rest of your life.
Capitalism: Spending what free time you have hollering about socialism.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777]
#14035943 - 02/27/11 01:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hakim0777 said: And why exactly its such a fucking problem apparently?
I'll answer the second question. Because it degrades the incentive to work. You're welcome.
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Hakim0777
aka RACKBONE!!!




Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,071
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036011 - 02/27/11 01:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Hakim0777 said: And why exactly its such a fucking problem apparently?
I'll answer the second question. Because it degrades the incentive to work. You're welcome.
is that biased?
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Chespirito
Stranger



Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,259
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777] 2
#14036035 - 02/27/11 01:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Huh? Your question 'why it's a fucking problem' is biased...
Anyways, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
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Hakim0777
aka RACKBONE!!!




Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,071
Loc: PNW
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Chespirito]
#14036053 - 02/27/11 01:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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im not asking why its a problem because I believe in it. Im just asking why its a problem.
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repteur
Stranger

Registered: 01/21/10
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777]
#14036062 - 02/27/11 01:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Socialism is nothing more then the Goverment helping out the less fortunate in there country. Its only a problem because the wealthy consider it to be a drain on them financially.
Edited by repteur (02/27/11 01:40 PM)
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Chespirito
Stranger



Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,259
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777] 1
#14036083 - 02/27/11 01:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hakim0777 said: im not asking why its a problem because I believe in it. Im just asking why its a problem.
Similarly, I'm only asking why Mexicans are a problem, how exactly is that biased?
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036093 - 02/27/11 01:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Hakim0777 said: And why exactly its such a fucking problem apparently?
I'll answer the second question. Because it degrades the incentive to work. You're welcome.
So does taking shrooms.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14036150 - 02/27/11 01:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Hakim0777 said: And why exactly its such a fucking problem apparently?
I'll answer the second question. Because it degrades the incentive to work. You're welcome.
So does taking shrooms.
I've never found that to be the case. The again, I never took them all day every day. But getting a check whether you actually work or not is an all day every day thing.
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Hakim0777
aka RACKBONE!!!




Registered: 08/25/06
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036194 - 02/27/11 02:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Hakim0777 said: And why exactly its such a fucking problem apparently?
I'll answer the second question. Because it degrades the incentive to work. You're welcome.
So does taking shrooms.
I've never found that to be the case. The again, I never took them all day every day. But getting a check whether you actually work or not is an all day every day thing.
yea but they totally make you gay.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777]
#14036201 - 02/27/11 02:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hakim0777 said:
yea but they totally make you gay.
Hell yeah, they do. Last time I took 'em, I woke up in a bathroom stall with Larry Craig.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777]
#14036223 - 02/27/11 02:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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What about those of us who were gay before the shrooms?
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Hakim0777
aka RACKBONE!!!




Registered: 08/25/06
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036234 - 02/27/11 02:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
phoxyilluminata said: What about those of us who were gay before the shrooms?
rock on.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777]
#14036252 - 02/27/11 02:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036286 - 02/27/11 02:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
phoxyilluminata said: What about those of us who were gay before the shrooms?
You make Baby Jesus cry, and he's going to punish you for it.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14036308 - 02/27/11 02:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said: What about those of us who were gay before the shrooms?
You make Baby Jesus cry, and he's going to punish you for it.
I dun wanna make baby jebsus cry.
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Friskies

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 44
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036318 - 02/27/11 02:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Toooooo late Phoxy.
-------------------- Stoner extraordinaire
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Friskies]
#14036343 - 02/27/11 02:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Eh, fuck the little twatgoblin then. Imma go find some more girls to have sexy time with, and email him the videos.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036348 - 02/27/11 02:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Also, socialism is bad because them fellers in the Tea Party keep sayin; it is, and they's smarter 'un me.
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TGRR
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036360 - 02/27/11 02:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
phoxyilluminata said: Also, socialism is bad because them fellers in the Tea Party keep sayin; it is, and they's smarter 'un me.
They're all "self-employed", too. Each and every one of them runs his/her own business. Fact.
How they manage to do that and post/protest every day of the week is beyond me, however.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14036378 - 02/27/11 02:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said: Also, socialism is bad because them fellers in the Tea Party keep sayin; it is, and they's smarter 'un me.
They're all "self-employed", too. Each and every one of them runs his/her own business. Fact.
How they manage to do that and post/protest every day of the week is beyond me, however.
It's because they are so fucking amazing that they can do all that in just 24 hours. Truly, a testament to their wisdom and skill. America DESERVES to have these people running the show.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036391 - 02/27/11 02:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
phoxyilluminata said: Also, socialism is bad because them fellers in the Tea Party keep sayin; it is, and they's smarter 'un me.
QFT.
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Friskies

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 44
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036427 - 02/27/11 02:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said: Also, socialism is bad because them fellers in the Tea Party keep sayin; it is, and they's smarter 'un me.
QFT
-------------------- Stoner extraordinaire
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036449 - 02/27/11 02:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said: Also, socialism is bad because them fellers in the Tea Party keep sayin; it is, and they's smarter 'un me.
QFT.
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Friskies

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 44
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036457 - 02/27/11 02:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said: Also, socialism is bad because them fellers in the Tea Party keep sayin; it is, and they's smarter 'un me.
QFT.

Yup. That was my initial reaction as well.
-------------------- Stoner extraordinaire
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Friskies]
#14036493 - 02/27/11 03:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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A problem with socialism is that too much power is centralized and eventually corrupt people get in power and often lead socialism into fascism.
The problem is all about central planning.
The argument is that the government can never be as efficient at allocating resources and ideas than a free market system can.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036500 - 02/27/11 03:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here is a famous thang about socialism;
Road to serfdom in 5 minutes -Based on book by F.A. Hayek
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TGRR
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036672 - 02/27/11 03:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: A problem with socialism is that too much power is centralized and eventually corrupt people get in power and often lead socialism into fascism.
Completely unlike capitalism, of course.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14036794 - 02/27/11 04:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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The idea is that in free market capitalism, monopolies are impossible because someone will always be able to do it a bit cheaper or better and there will always be competition and checks. Like if people don't like that you are a monopoly, they can spend their money to find a way to do it better.
Socialism forces taxpayers to pay for anything the government says with a gun. When the government goes bad, the economy gets all unnaturally fixed and fails, socialism fails and the tax payers suffer under some fascist government.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036824 - 02/27/11 04:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: The idea is that in free market capitalism, monopolies are impossible because someone will always be able to do it a bit cheaper or better and there will always be competition and checks. Like if people don't like that you are a monopoly, they can spend their money to find a way to do it better.
Socialism forces taxpayers to pay for anything the government says with a gun. When the government goes bad, the economy gets all unnaturally fixed and fails, socialism fails and the tax payers suffer under some fascist government.
A simple no will suffice here. No.
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Chespirito
Stranger



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata] 1
#14036850 - 02/27/11 04:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think you want The Pub
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036876 - 02/27/11 04:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: The idea is that in free market capitalism, monopolies are impossible because someone will always be able to do it a bit cheaper or better and there will always be competition and checks.
Until one company gets big enough to buy the government.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Shins
Fun guy



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036887 - 02/27/11 04:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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The biggest problem with socialism i think is that it centralizes too much power and resources and distributes it in a way that is inferior to the way taxpayers would do it themselves.
Big government just isn't nearly as efficient at allocating resources and fulfilling needs as a free market is.
It gets bad when big government gets too much power and completely takes over with force.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14036899 - 02/27/11 04:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
Shins said: The idea is that in free market capitalism, monopolies are impossible because someone will always be able to do it a bit cheaper or better and there will always be competition and checks.
Until one company gets big enough to buy the government.
but one company shouldn't get to become that big unless all of the people vote for them with their money.
Otherwise one company wouldn't be able to do it.
When the government forces you with a gun to pay taxes so that one company CAN become big enough to buy the government and vice versa, it's socialism, and that's the problem.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036920 - 02/27/11 04:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: The biggest problem with socialism i think is that it centralizes too much power and resources and distributes it in a way that is inferior to the way taxpayers would do it themselves.
Big government just isn't nearly as efficient at allocating resources and fulfilling needs as a free market is.
It gets bad when big government gets too much power and completely takes over with force.
You have some sort of evidence for this?
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036924 - 02/27/11 04:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
but one company shouldn't get to become that big unless all of the people vote for them with their money.
Otherwise one company wouldn't be able to do it.
Microsoft, Exxon, Halliburton, and MacDonald Douglas come to mind.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036928 - 02/27/11 04:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:
Shins said: The biggest problem with socialism i think is that it centralizes too much power and resources and distributes it in a way that is inferior to the way taxpayers would do it themselves.
Big government just isn't nearly as efficient at allocating resources and fulfilling needs as a free market is.
It gets bad when big government gets too much power and completely takes over with force.
You have some sort of evidence for this?
It had better be good, seeing as how it flies in the face of, you know, what actually happens.
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sonavapreacha
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036930 - 02/27/11 04:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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So I suppose a doctor who spends 8-12 years of schooling doesn't deserve the pursuit of a wage seeming suitable to the work he put into getting his MD? I just think you can justify that not every wage is created equal, and some people are more ambitious and deserve the wages and lifestyle they worked hard for.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: sonavapreacha]
#14036937 - 02/27/11 04:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonavapreacha said: So I suppose a doctor who spends 8-12 years of schooling doesn't deserve the pursuit of a wage seeming suitable to the work he put into getting his MD? I just think you can justify that not every wage is created equal, and some people are more ambitious and deserve the wages and lifestyle they worked hard for.
What the hell are you talking about? Canada is a socialist country, and I can assure you that doctors get paid more than gas station clerks.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14036940 - 02/27/11 04:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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The other extreme is that socialism could create some kind of altruistic utopia where everyone shares and is happy and somehow an omnipotent central authority knows everyone's needs and fulfills it to their delight.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14036942 - 02/27/11 04:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
Shins said:
but one company shouldn't get to become that big unless all of the people vote for them with their money.
Otherwise one company wouldn't be able to do it.
Microsoft, Exxon, Halliburton, and MacDonald Douglas come to mind.
It's McDonnell Douglass. None of those companies have bought an influence in government that comes close to AFSCME. Further, I don't have to buy any of their products. Ever. Unfortunately I am stuck paying for AFSCME unless I stop making money or leave the country.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036955 - 02/27/11 04:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonavapreacha said: So I suppose a doctor who spends 8-12 years of schooling doesn't deserve the pursuit of a wage seeming suitable to the work he put into getting his MD? I just think you can justify that not every wage is created equal, and some people are more ambitious and deserve the wages and lifestyle they worked hard for.
Except... I'm spending a comparable amount of time working to be able to teach people, and I won't be making anywhere near the same income. Nor will I have as stable a job. So.. it's not all about amount of work put in, brah.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036958 - 02/27/11 04:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: The other extreme is that socialism could create some kind of altruistic utopia where everyone shares and is happy and somehow an omnipotent central authority knows everyone's needs and fulfills it to their delight.
You have some sort of evidence for this?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14036961 - 02/27/11 04:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: The other extreme is that socialism could create some kind of altruistic utopia where everyone shares and is happy and somehow an omnipotent central authority knows everyone's needs and fulfills it to their delight.
Kumbaya, my lord Kumbaya. I think I'll call in stoned today. Lalalalalala, how was work? I had a good time. Lalalalalala being fucked up is way funner than working, let's go fishing. Every day. Lalalalalala
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the human abstract
malaka the werewolf



Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 8,817
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: sonavapreacha]
#14036978 - 02/27/11 04:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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it would work much better actually bc someone would have to put their heart into it not just their thirst for dollars
a lot of doctors dont even keep themselves updated now
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TGRR
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: the human abstract]
#14037031 - 02/27/11 04:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
the human abstract said: it would work much better actually bc someone would have to put their heart into it not just their thirst for dollars
And it would be better if there was pink unicorns and shit.
But I thought we were talking about the real world.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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TGRR
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14037041 - 02/27/11 04:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
Shins said:
but one company shouldn't get to become that big unless all of the people vote for them with their money.
Otherwise one company wouldn't be able to do it.
Microsoft, Exxon, Halliburton, and MacDonald Douglas come to mind.
It's McDonnell Douglass. None of those companies have bought an influence in government that comes close to AFSCME. Further, I don't have to buy any of their products. Ever. Unfortunately I am stuck paying for AFSCME unless I stop making money or leave the country.
You HAVE to buy the products of the companies I mentioned, each and every day.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Hakim0777
aka RACKBONE!!!




Registered: 08/25/06
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14037162 - 02/27/11 05:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: The other extreme is that socialism could create some kind of altruistic utopia where everyone shares and is happy and somehow an omnipotent central authority knows everyone's needs and fulfills it to their delight.
like...canada?
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14037163 - 02/27/11 05:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: A problem with socialism is that too much power is centralized and eventually corrupt people get in power and often lead socialism into fascism.
A fascist government could replace a socialist one, or a capitalist one, and to state that socialism leads to fascism more readily than capitalism is incorrect, at least if you want to go by the lessons of history. Plenty of socialist countries have never flirted with fascism and the most notorious fascist Nations grew out of failed capitalistic ones.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: sonavapreacha]
#14037376 - 02/27/11 06:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonavapreacha said: So I suppose a doctor who spends 8-12 years of schooling doesn't deserve the pursuit of a wage seeming suitable to the work he put into getting his MD? I just think you can justify that not every wage is created equal, and some people are more ambitious and deserve the wages and lifestyle they worked hard for.
Medicine is pretty far removed from a free market in the US, but I agree with your point anyways.
Maybe if the physicians' groups didn't have government fiat to control who can compete with them, how many of them their can be, and what they can do, it would be more like a free market.
As it is, the amount of physicians available is much smaller than the demand would dictate, and their wages are comensurately raised. Its coming around to bite them in the ass though, as areas without physician coverage sufficient for their population have been pushing to take away their keys to the kingdom.
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TheMacDaddyLongLeg
Stranger

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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
#14038134 - 02/27/11 08:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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want to REALLY know WHY socialism is bad?
look up these terms:
Laissez-faire The Business Cycle Austrian Economics Free Market lol
durrr
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777]
#14038727 - 02/27/11 09:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way?
Sure thing. Click on the graphic below.
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Hitsuzen
Space Cowboy



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Phred]
#14044487 - 02/28/11 07:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, socialism typically doesn't have universal pay rates. Doctors and lawyers still get bank, they just pay more taxes.
As a rule of the thumb, with socialism you're paying more taxes for a higher social safety net. So the rich can't get quite as super-rich, and the poor can't get quite as poor. It basically tries to move the two extremes (poverty and wealth) more toward the center.
I've always been a fan of some shade of gray between capitalism and socialism; probably more toward socialism.
-------------------- Hate never yet dispelled hate, Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible. -Buddha
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Hitsuzen
Space Cowboy



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Phred]
#14044519 - 02/28/11 07:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way?
Sure thing. Click on the graphic below.

Except most citizens of (semi-)socialist countries don't feel they're being stolen from. Most people in Canada and Europe are more or less cool with it.
-------------------- Hate never yet dispelled hate, Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible. -Buddha
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hitsuzen]
#14044560 - 02/28/11 07:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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That's because the cost doesn't fall on most citizens. It only falls on a few.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14044572 - 02/28/11 07:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: That's because the cost doesn't fall on most citizens. It only falls on a few.
Ever heard of the Canadian GST?
Of course you haven't.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14044611 - 02/28/11 07:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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That doesn't disqualify what I said. Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14044662 - 02/28/11 07:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: That doesn't disqualify what I said. Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.
You seem to be under the assumption that Canada has the same enormous divide between rich and poor. Fact is, they have a (proportionally) larger middle class, and they take up a good chunk of the burden.
Canadian middle class = 33.2% of the population.
American middle class = 20% of the population.
Of course, the definition of "middle class" varies, so I picked one income bracket and compared numbers. I've also seen 73% and 66%, respectively, using lower income brackets as part of the description of middle class.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14044685 - 02/28/11 07:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: That doesn't disqualify what I said. Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.
You seem to be under the assumption that Canada has the same enormous divide between rich and poor. Fact is, they have a (proportionally) larger middle class, and they take up a good chunk of the burden.
Canadian middle class = 33.2% of the population.
American middle class = 20% of the population.
Of course, the definition of "middle class" varies, so I picked one income bracket and compared numbers. I've also seen 73% and 66%, respectively, using lower income brackets as part of the description of middle class.
Of course, you pulled that completely out of your ass. It's also irrelevant.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14044731 - 02/28/11 07:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: That doesn't disqualify what I said. Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.
You seem to be under the assumption that Canada has the same enormous divide between rich and poor. Fact is, they have a (proportionally) larger middle class, and they take up a good chunk of the burden.
Canadian middle class = 33.2% of the population.
American middle class = 20% of the population.
Of course, the definition of "middle class" varies, so I picked one income bracket and compared numbers. I've also seen 73% and 66%, respectively, using lower income brackets as part of the description of middle class.
Of course, you pulled that completely out of your ass. It's also irrelevant.
Naw, actually, I pulled the American figures from Wikipedia, which took its numbers from the US Census Bureau, and the Canadian figures from David Akin, who took his numbers from statscan.
Links upon request.
But keep on believing, old timer.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14048655 - 03/01/11 01:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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To answer the OP: Socialism means that some resources and means of production are publicly owned. Based on my experience living in a socialist nation(Canada), this really just amounts to the taxpayers paying taxes and the government providing services in return. I think I should clarify that this is entirely different from communism, in which citizens are never paid in the first place and are simply provided with the resources they need to live by the government.
It's far from perfect, but it's nowhere near dystopian either. The medical care is nice. In my experience it does not, as zappa claims, remove incentive to work.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14048690 - 03/01/11 02:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048733 - 03/01/11 02:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Taken care of? You can survive on welfare. Surviving and living are two very different things. Employment insurance is better than welfare, but you need to be trying to find work in the first place to qualify for it, and you do lose it eventually if you go too long without work.
What you don't seem to realize is that for most people, not being dead simply isn't good enough.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048770 - 03/01/11 02:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Well, most countries that have some form of social security will pay out less than the minimum wage. So while it is possible to live on unemployment benefit, it is much nicer to work.
Incidentally, while it is traditional for Americans to call anything to the left of the US "socialist", no sane person would call Canada a socialist nation. Maybe Sweden, but not really since the conservatives came into power last year. Even China is moving rapidly towards full-blown capitalism.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14048792 - 03/01/11 02:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Taken care of? You can survive on welfare. Surviving and living are two very different things. Employment insurance is better than welfare, but you need to be trying to find work in the first place to qualify for it, and you do lose it eventually if you go too long without work.
What you don't seem to realize is that for most people, not being dead simply isn't good enough.
The more you provide for people the less they are likely to seek more
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Ygor]
#14048800 - 03/01/11 02:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ygor said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Well, most countries that have some form of social security will pay out less than the minimum wage. So while it is possible to live on unemployment benefit, it is much nicer to work.
Incidentally, while it is traditional for Americans to call anything to the left of the US "socialist", no sane person would call Canada a socialist nation. Maybe Sweden, but not really since the conservatives came into power last year. Even China is moving rapidly towards full-blown capitalism.
There is a continuum. I wouldn't consider China to be going anywhere near full blown capitalism and Sweden is starting to see the light because the bill is coming due. Not only on their socialism but also their immigration policies. Then again, when you are as socialist as Sweden you tend to find a more undesirable class of immigrant raiding your coffers.
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Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048817 - 03/01/11 02:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: The more you provide for people the less they are likely to seek more
Which is why the amount paid out has to be carefully balanced between "everyone living off the state" and "people who want to work but are unable to find employment starving to death".
But again, I must point out the great disparity between unemployment benefit and an actual socialist state, where the workers own the means of production and everyone lives together in happy equality. With fairies and unicorns, presumably.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048825 - 03/01/11 02:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Taken care of? You can survive on welfare. Surviving and living are two very different things. Employment insurance is better than welfare, but you need to be trying to find work in the first place to qualify for it, and you do lose it eventually if you go too long without work.
What you don't seem to realize is that for most people, not being dead simply isn't good enough.
The more you provide for people the less they are likely to seek more
So let's see if I can follow this. Your logic is: Socialism involves providing enough for people to get back on their feet --> providing everything that people want dissuades them from work --> socialism stops people from working --> socialism is evil. Have I missed anything?
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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MushyHobo
Stranger

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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14048904 - 03/01/11 02:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you want my opinion I think the USSA is too Socialist already:
Public Broadcasting Networks? Pffft - mouthpieces for Obama, more like.
Medicare? Yeah, let's just let the old and infirm leach off the young and virile - buy your own viagra, grandpa!
Public Education? What's the point if the market demands that you're just going to end up on the wrong side of a McDonalds counter? Wasted investment. If you can't afford to send your kids to a proper school then GTFO.
Nanny-state regulation? Get those no-future kids out of school and into productive work already - want to stimulate the economy? Don't steal the sweat from my brow and the bread from my pockets. Ha!
No, this is a war, this is the good fight. Money, integrity and honor vs. poor assed laziness.
You know, people like me get vilified for saying stuff like this, but if you're honest you know it to be true.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Ygor]
#14048912 - 03/01/11 02:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ygor said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: The more you provide for people the less they are likely to seek more
Which is why the amount paid out has to be carefully balanced between "everyone living off the state" and "people who want to work but are unable to find employment starving to death".
True. All anybody ever argues about is where to set the needle.Quote:
But again, I must point out the great disparity between unemployment benefit and an actual socialist state, where the workers own the means of production and everyone lives together in happy equality. With fairies and unicorns, presumably.
Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya. Oh I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK.....
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MushyHobo
Stranger

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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048937 - 03/01/11 02:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya. Oh I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK.....
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hitsuzen]
#14049069 - 03/01/11 03:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: That doesn't disqualify what I said. Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.
You seem to be under the assumption that Canada has the same enormous divide between rich and poor. Fact is, they have a (proportionally) larger middle class, and they take up a good chunk of the burden.
Canadian middle class = 33.2% of the population.
American middle class = 20% of the population.
Of course, the definition of "middle class" varies, so I picked one income bracket and compared numbers. I've also seen 73% and 66%, respectively, using lower income brackets as part of the description of middle class.
I echo Zappa's unsatisfied request for the relevance of these random stats. What does this have to do with where the tax burden falls?
Quote:
DrGonz0 said:
Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way?
Sure thing. Click on the graphic below.

Except most citizens of (semi-)socialist countries don't feel they're being stolen from. Most people in Canada and Europe are more or less cool with it.
Please justify this claim and explain its relevance.
Its my understanding that socialist policies inevitably retard freedom and prosperity and any signifigant amount of these policies in proportion to other countries tends to create an unenviable disparity. Pretty much why socialist countries tend to have guards and walls keeping people locked in the employ of the state, or financial barriers of the same effect.
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MushyHobo
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
#14049134 - 03/01/11 03:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: Its my understanding that socialist policies inevitably retard freedom and prosperity and any signifigant amount of these policies in proportion to other countries tends to create an unenviable disparity. Pretty much why socialist countries tend to have guards and walls keeping people locked in the employ of the state, or financial barriers of the same effect.
Right on! Originally from Kentucky and up in Canada now just because with the Obama recession and all I can make bigger buck here, plus there are some nice relaxed possession policies _for now_ which makes me breathe a little easier, if you know what I mean
But I'm hardly able to take a walk outside without feeling the subdued misery and the tax+spend oppression is as tangible as a knife in the wallet. On the plus side, I was able to register for free healthcare after six months on a work visa, well - I'm am not an idiot, right? In and out. That's my plan.
You know how they say Canadians are more polite? It's just shell-shock. Remember the G20 in Toronto last year? That's the real face of soviet canuckistan.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: MushyHobo]
#14049230 - 03/01/11 03:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushyHobo said: If you want my opinion I think the USSA is too Socialist already:
Public Broadcasting Networks? Pffft - mouthpieces for Obama, more like.
 EDIT: Ok, that's not public. I misread the first time around.
Quote:
Medicare? Yeah, let's just let the old and infirm leach off the young and virile - buy your own viagra, grandpa!
Because young, inexperienced drivers never, ever get into horrible accidents.
Quote:
Public Education? What's the point if the market demands that you're just going to end up on the wrong side of a McDonalds counter? Wasted investment. If you can't afford to send your kids to a proper school then GTFO.
Yes, that'll keep the snotty little brats in their place. Taking away all hope of legitimate societal advancement from so many poor children totally won't make gang violence any more frequent than it is.
Quote:
Nanny-state regulation? Get those no-future kids out of school and into productive work already - want to stimulate the economy? Don't steal the sweat from my brow and the bread from my pockets. Ha!
And putting so many lower-class people in entry level jobs totally won't make unemployment any more frequent than it is.
Quote:
No, this is a war, this is the good fight. Money, integrity and honor vs. poor assed laziness.
You know, people like me get vilified for saying stuff like this, but if you're honest you know it to be true.
This man is the voice of the future.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
Edited by Lord Amok (03/01/11 03:53 PM)
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Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
#14049240 - 03/01/11 03:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: I echo Zappa's unsatisfied request for the relevance of these random stats. What does this have to do with where the tax burden falls?
Quote:
TGRR said: Naw, actually, I pulled the American figures from Wikipedia, which took its numbers from the US Census Bureau, and the Canadian figures from David Akin, who took his numbers from statscan.
Links upon request.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: MushyHobo]
#14049297 - 03/01/11 03:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushyHobo said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: Its my understanding that socialist policies inevitably retard freedom and prosperity and any signifigant amount of these policies in proportion to other countries tends to create an unenviable disparity. Pretty much why socialist countries tend to have guards and walls keeping people locked in the employ of the state, or financial barriers of the same effect.
Right on! Originally from Kentucky and up in Canada now just because with the Obama recession and all I can make bigger buck here, plus there are some nice relaxed possession policies _for now_ which makes me breathe a little easier, if you know what I mean
But I'm hardly able to take a walk outside without feeling the subdued misery and the tax+spend oppression is as tangible as a knife in the wallet. On the plus side, I was able to register for free healthcare after six months on a work visa, well - I'm am not an idiot, right? In and out. That's my plan.
You know how they say Canadians are more polite? It's just shell-shock. Remember the G20 in Toronto last year? That's the real face of soviet canuckistan.
G20 was less socialism and more Stephen Harper and the global elite. You know, your kind of people. Incidentally, Stephen Harper is a very anti-socialist Prime Minister. The only reason he hasn't done more to Americanize the nation is probably that as a minority PM, he doesn't have that kind of power. As for the misery you mentioned, that would depend on where you are. I hear that Fort MacMurray, for example, is absolutely devoid of happiness. The only reason that anyone lives up there is that it's where the oil companies are, and they pay their workers a lot. I mean, the dichotomy of socialism vs. capitalism isn't the cause of all misery and happiness. It's just a convenient filter. A religious evangelist might look at the same situation and see the misery of the unsaved.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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PurpleMushroomZeta
Mutant

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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: MushyHobo]
#14049315 - 03/01/11 03:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Socialism is wrong, because
1. Jesus said, "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." So that's why it's right to give trillions of dollars taxpayer money in the form of bailouts to billionaires who couldn't cover their bets.
2. CEO's who make $1800 an hour deserve every penny, because they are working 200 times harder than the people on the factory floor. They should get more tax breaks, and if the workers can't make ends meet, then they need to suck it up.
3. Capitalism seeks the most efficient use of capital. All of the goods we buy today are produced in third world dictatorships because it is inefficient to produce in a country where workers have rights and there are laws against dumping dioxins and furans in town drinking water supplies.
That's all for now.
-------------------- So like the wall started melting, and we were trying to scoop it up and put it back in place, and the songs on the radio sounded like they all had video game sound effects mixed in, but then when the lamp started talking, I ran outside and climbed a tree, and there were a bunch of trolls down there telling me to come down, and I said no because you're going to eat me, and the trolls told me that I was just tripping and that I should get down out of that tree before I fall and come back inside because it's cold, but I stayed up there and the trolls all left. Then when I thought it was safe I went back into the house, and I told my friends about how I almost got eaten by trolls. They just laughed because they were tripping.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: PurpleMushroomZeta]
#14049831 - 03/01/11 05:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
PurpleMushroomZeta said: Socialism is wrong, because
1. Jesus said, "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." So that's why it's right to give trillions of dollars taxpayer money in the form of bailouts to billionaires who couldn't cover their bets.
Aside from the deeper idiocy that forcing them to take money they didn't want or need except because of the government's arcane rules, nobody with a semblance of an understanding of the English language should confuse the word gift with the phrase "loan at usury".Quote:
2. CEO's who make $1800 an hour deserve every penny, because they are working 200 times harder than the people on the factory floor. They should get more tax breaks, and if the workers can't make ends meet, then they need to suck it up.
They deserve every penny they get. You can't play centerfield for the Yankees, either. It is not your business to allocate somebody's pay. Quote:
3. Capitalism seeks the most efficient use of capital. All of the goods we buy today are produced in third world dictatorships because it is inefficient to produce in a country where workers have rights and there are laws against dumping dioxins and furans in town drinking water supplies.
That's all for now.
Maybe you should crusade in China. Good luck on your brave endeavor. Uber alles, Komrade, never forget to bravely speak truth to power.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14049922 - 03/01/11 05:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Mired in ideological bullshit, aren't we? I don't recall ever calling you an Objectivist for disagreeing with socialism. Then again, I myself am not a socialist. Perhaps it's a flawed comparison.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14049970 - 03/01/11 05:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Did I call you anything?
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14050006 - 03/01/11 05:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Did I call you anything?
Sure you did, in a passive-aggressive, pansy-ish way.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14050041 - 03/01/11 05:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nothing I post is passive-aggressive.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14050042 - 03/01/11 05:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Did I call you anything?
Actually, I was responding to the way you spoke to Zeta. But your general level of assholish dogmatism has really been astounding so far.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14050045 - 03/01/11 05:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Nothing I post is passive-aggressive.
Sure as hell was.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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PurpleMushroomZeta
Mutant

Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14050050 - 03/01/11 05:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:Aside from the deeper idiocy that forcing them to take money they didn't want or need except because of the government's arcane rules, nobody with a semblance of an understanding of the English language should confuse the word gift with the phrase "loan at usury".
You got that right. Those banks are just suffering under crippling regulations, and yet they are still able to post record profits and pay record bonuses even while the rest of the economy crumbles. Must be American ingenuity and good old-fashioned elbow grease at work.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:They deserve every penny they get. You can't play centerfield for the Yankees, either. It is not your business to allocate somebody's pay.
True enough. If an entertainer is making millions and a moderately competent but politically connected CEO is making billions, while the people in charge of keeping us safe or educating our children can't make ends meet, then that's just how people are voting with their dollars. Everyone has a choice in how they spend every dollar they spend. If someone is opposed to companies that use third world sweatshops, they could buy their clothes from a small business that manufactures clothes in America -- if they can find any, that is.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:Maybe you should crusade in China. Good luck on your brave endeavor. Uber alles, Komrade, never forget to bravely speak truth to power.
Maybe I like being able to buy a pair of jeans for a quarter-hour's pay, and don't care that some starving eight year old Bhutanese kid got maimed while making them.
-------------------- So like the wall started melting, and we were trying to scoop it up and put it back in place, and the songs on the radio sounded like they all had video game sound effects mixed in, but then when the lamp started talking, I ran outside and climbed a tree, and there were a bunch of trolls down there telling me to come down, and I said no because you're going to eat me, and the trolls told me that I was just tripping and that I should get down out of that tree before I fall and come back inside because it's cold, but I stayed up there and the trolls all left. Then when I thought it was safe I went back into the house, and I told my friends about how I almost got eaten by trolls. They just laughed because they were tripping.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: PurpleMushroomZeta]
#14050066 - 03/01/11 05:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
PurpleMushroomZeta said:
Maybe I like being able to buy a pair of jeans for a quarter-hour's pay, and don't care that some starving eight year old Bhutanese kid got maimed while making them.
You have to remember that conservatives hate kids.
I mean, they love a fetus, but the moment it's born, it's garbage.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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PurpleMushroomZeta
Mutant

Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14050089 - 03/01/11 06:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
PurpleMushroomZeta said:
Maybe I like being able to buy a pair of jeans for a quarter-hour's pay, and don't care that some starving eight year old Bhutanese kid got maimed while making them.
You have to remember that conservatives hate kids.
I mean, they love a fetus, but the moment it's born, it's garbage.
The way I understand it, the plan is to take our country back to 1890, rolling back women's rights, environmental laws, and labor protections. We'll need all those poor kids to work in the factories, and any that survive to adulthood without being crushed by machinery get sent to the front lines in whichever resource war we are currently fighting.
-------------------- So like the wall started melting, and we were trying to scoop it up and put it back in place, and the songs on the radio sounded like they all had video game sound effects mixed in, but then when the lamp started talking, I ran outside and climbed a tree, and there were a bunch of trolls down there telling me to come down, and I said no because you're going to eat me, and the trolls told me that I was just tripping and that I should get down out of that tree before I fall and come back inside because it's cold, but I stayed up there and the trolls all left. Then when I thought it was safe I went back into the house, and I told my friends about how I almost got eaten by trolls. They just laughed because they were tripping.
Edited by PurpleMushroomZeta (03/01/11 06:02 PM)
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: PurpleMushroomZeta]
#14050097 - 03/01/11 06:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
PurpleMushroomZeta said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
PurpleMushroomZeta said:
Maybe I like being able to buy a pair of jeans for a quarter-hour's pay, and don't care that some starving eight year old Bhutanese kid got maimed while making them.
You have to remember that conservatives hate kids.
I mean, they love a fetus, but the moment it's born, it's garbage.
The way I understand it, the plan is to take our country back to 1890, rolling back women's rights, environmental laws, and labor protections. We'll need all those poor kids to work in the factories, and any that survive to adulthood without being crushed by machinery get sent to the front lines in whichever resource war we are currently fighting.
Get under that loom, kid! Those bobbins ain't gonna change themselves!
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14050106 - 03/01/11 06:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Did I call you anything?
Actually, I was responding to the way you spoke to Zeta. But your general level of assholish dogmatism has really been astounding so far.
Well then the answer is, "No, Zap, I am a frail little flower who makes up imagined slights".
Disagreeing with your particularly sophomorish understanding of the world doesn't make me either dogmatic or an asshole.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14050113 - 03/01/11 06:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Did I call you anything?
Actually, I was responding to the way you spoke to Zeta. But your general level of assholish dogmatism has really been astounding so far.
Well then the answer is, "No, Zap, I am a frail little flower who makes up imagined slights".
Disagreeing with your particularly sophomorish understanding of the world doesn't make me either dogmatic or an asshole.
No, but the manner of your disagreement does.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 51
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14050147 - 03/01/11 06:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
PurpleMushroomZeta said:
Maybe I like being able to buy a pair of jeans for a quarter-hour's pay, and don't care that some starving eight year old Bhutanese kid got maimed while making them.
You have to remember that conservatives hate kids.
I mean, they love a fetus, but the moment it's born, it's garbage.
It's fine to mooch nutrients off your mother in utero, but god forbid that you should do the same with their well-earned money.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: PurpleMushroomZeta]
#14050168 - 03/01/11 06:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
PurpleMushroomZeta said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:Aside from the deeper idiocy that forcing them to take money they didn't want or need except because of the government's arcane rules, nobody with a semblance of an understanding of the English language should confuse the word gift with the phrase "loan at usury".
You got that right. Those banks are just suffering under crippling regulations, and yet they are still able to post record profits and pay record bonuses even while the rest of the economy crumbles. Must be American ingenuity and good old-fashioned elbow grease at work.
Here's what I know for a certainty. You couldn't do it. The banking industry is and has been for my entire life the most heavily regulated industry in the country. If you are jealous of their profits why the fuck don't you get on the bus? You can. Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:They deserve every penny they get. You can't play centerfield for the Yankees, either. It is not your business to allocate somebody's pay.
True enough. If an entertainer is making millions and a moderately competent but politically connected CEO is making billions, while the people in charge of keeping us safe or educating our children can't make ends meet, then that's just how people are voting with their dollars. Everyone has a choice in how they spend every dollar they spend. If someone is opposed to companies that use third world sweatshops, they could buy their clothes from a small business that manufactures clothes in America -- if they can find any, that is.
I guess you have an issue with politicians, then.
The group most responsible for the decline of the American manufacturing industry is the American consumer. The greedy fucks.Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:Maybe you should crusade in China. Good luck on your brave endeavor. Uber alles, Komrade, never forget to bravely speak truth to power.
Maybe I like being able to buy a pair of jeans for a quarter-hour's pay, and don't care that some starving eight year old Bhutanese kid got maimed while making them.
Maybe? There's no maybe about it.
--------------------
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 51
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14050221 - 03/01/11 06:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Did I call you anything?
Actually, I was responding to the way you spoke to Zeta. But your general level of assholish dogmatism has really been astounding so far.
Well then the answer is, "No, Zap, I am a frail little flower who makes up imagined slights".
Disagreeing with your particularly sophomorish understanding of the world doesn't make me either dogmatic or an asshole.
Imagined slights? I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine you calling Zeta "Komerade". If anything, you're the one imagining slights here. The guy agrees with you and you flip off the deep end? What kind of way is that to treat a fellow capitalist pig?
And of course my worldview is sophomorish. Because it's totally mature to act the way you've been acting, right?
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
Edited by Lord Amok (03/01/11 06:23 PM)
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Atomsk
King of the Space Pirates


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 34
Last seen: 13 years, 7 days
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14050440 - 03/01/11 06:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The group most responsible for the decline of the American manufacturing industry is the American consumer. The greedy fucks.
Wait. Isnt the whole premise of free market libertarianism that if everyone acts completely in their own self interest things will be better for everyone?
So why isnt it working?
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Hitsuzen
Space Cowboy



Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 399
Loc: Earth
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Atomsk]
#14050464 - 03/01/11 07:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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What a pissing contest this thread has become
-------------------- Hate never yet dispelled hate, Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible. -Buddha
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 51
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Atomsk]
#14050466 - 03/01/11 07:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Atomsk said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The group most responsible for the decline of the American manufacturing industry is the American consumer. The greedy fucks.
Wait. Isnt the whole premise of free market libertarianism that if everyone acts completely in their own self interest things will be better for everyone?
So why isnt it working?
Because socialism, now shut up and watch your Fox News.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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snoot
look alive ∞




Registered: 01/30/05
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Loc: 45º parallel
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14050495 - 03/01/11 07:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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socialism has gotten such a bad stigma in america, as the super rich and those with influence and control on the media have made it so, and have something to fear from people being in favor of such a system.
--------------------
∞ I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity. - Simone de Beauvoir -
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PurpleMushroomZeta
Mutant

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 16
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14050530 - 03/01/11 07:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:Here's what I know for a certainty. You couldn't do it. The banking industry is and has been for my entire life the most heavily regulated industry in the country. If you are jealous of their profits why the fuck don't you get on the bus? You can.
What, you think I don't own stock in Goldman Sachs?
Quote:
zappaisgod said:I guess you have an issue with politicians, then.
Of course I do. Don't you?
Quote:
zappaisgod said:The group most responsible for the decline of the American manufacturing industry is the American consumer. The greedy fucks.
Yep, and stupid too. We saved a few bucks here and there buying cheap foreign-made goods from big box retailers instead of choosing American-made goods from local merchants, and now we wonder where all the jobs went. Well, you can't say we didn't deserve it.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:Maybe? There's no maybe about it.
-------------------- So like the wall started melting, and we were trying to scoop it up and put it back in place, and the songs on the radio sounded like they all had video game sound effects mixed in, but then when the lamp started talking, I ran outside and climbed a tree, and there were a bunch of trolls down there telling me to come down, and I said no because you're going to eat me, and the trolls told me that I was just tripping and that I should get down out of that tree before I fall and come back inside because it's cold, but I stayed up there and the trolls all left. Then when I thought it was safe I went back into the house, and I told my friends about how I almost got eaten by trolls. They just laughed because they were tripping.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14050562 - 03/01/11 07:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushyHobo said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: Its my understanding that socialist policies inevitably retard freedom and prosperity and any signifigant amount of these policies in proportion to other countries tends to create an unenviable disparity. Pretty much why socialist countries tend to have guards and walls keeping people locked in the employ of the state, or financial barriers of the same effect.
Right on! Originally from Kentucky and up in Canada now just because with the Obama recession and all I can make bigger buck here, plus there are some nice relaxed possession policies _for now_ which makes me breathe a little easier, if you know what I mean
But I'm hardly able to take a walk outside without feeling the subdued misery and the tax+spend oppression is as tangible as a knife in the wallet. On the plus side, I was able to register for free healthcare after six months on a work visa, well - I'm am not an idiot, right? In and out. That's my plan.
You know how they say Canadians are more polite? It's just shell-shock. Remember the G20 in Toronto last year? That's the real face of soviet canuckistan.
What does your reply have to do with my post- which you've ostensibly responded to?
About the only way I can make sense of it is to presume you're assuming all sorts of unstated arguments and then ridiculing them, without bothering to show how they're a consequence of my position or post. 
Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
Nanny-state regulation? Get those no-future kids out of school and into productive work already - want to stimulate the economy? Don't steal the sweat from my brow and the bread from my pockets. Ha!
And putting so many lower-class people in entry level jobs totally won't make unemployment any more frequent than it is.
That's an interesting reply and perspective- you've described a situation where people are "put in" particular jobs. By whom, exactly?
You're not in a communist state, you don't have to work if you don't want to- no one's going to take your bread or jail/kill you if you quit your job or get a new one.
It seems you've presupposed that employment is an excercise of some central power- presumably the government. How is this justified? The government does not assign workers to jobs, at least non-communist ones, and disatisfaction with your job is anything but the burden of the society and government.
Your's is an attitude of entitlement and externalizing your problems. I doubt you'd maintain this perspective for long if you got a government that actually decided your lot in life- traditionally they have come along with repression and genocide.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 51
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
#14050650 - 03/01/11 07:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: That's an interesting reply and perspective- you've described a situation where people are "put in" particular jobs. By whom, exactly?
By themselves. People who need money either try to get jobs or resort to crime. I may be wrong, but I think most people would prefer to get a job, if only out of cowardice. If most people are uneducated and thus don't have any qualifications, they'll go for entry-level jobs-and only so many of those are available. Unemployment and crime go up.
Quote:
You're not in a communist state, you don't have to work if you don't want to- no one's going to take your bread or jail/kill you if you quit your job or get a new one.
No, but I am in a socialist state, and it isn't doing too bad. And if I quit my job, I do have to look for a new one if I want my life to be at all pleasant.
Quote:
It seems you've presupposed that employment is an excercise of some central power- presumably the government. How is this justified? The government does not assign workers to jobs, at least non-communist ones, and disatisfaction with your job is anything but the burden of the society and government.
You are way off the mark in terms of what you think I believe. You really have no idea.
Quote:
Your's is an attitude of entitlement and externalizing your problems.
No, but nice try.
Quote:
I doubt you'd maintain this perspective for long if you got a government that actually decided your lot in life- traditionally they have come along with repression and genocide.
Who said I wanted that? I want to think for myself, schmuck.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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MushyHobo
Stranger

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 45
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
#14050715 - 03/01/11 07:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
MushyHobo said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: Its my understanding that socialist policies inevitably retard freedom and prosperity and any signifigant amount of these policies in proportion to other countries tends to create an unenviable disparity. Pretty much why socialist countries tend to have guards and walls keeping people locked in the employ of the state, or financial barriers of the same effect.
Right on! Originally from Kentucky and up in Canada now just because with the Obama recession and all I can make bigger buck here, plus there are some nice relaxed possession policies _for now_ which makes me breathe a little easier, if you know what I mean
But I'm hardly able to take a walk outside without feeling the subdued misery and the tax+spend oppression is as tangible as a knife in the wallet. On the plus side, I was able to register for free healthcare after six months on a work visa, well - I'm am not an idiot, right? In and out. That's my plan.
You know how they say Canadians are more polite? It's just shell-shock. Remember the G20 in Toronto last year? That's the real face of soviet canuckistan.
What does your reply have to do with my post- which you've ostensibly responded to?
About the only way I can make sense of it is to presume you're assuming all sorts of unstated arguments and then ridiculing them, without bothering to show how they're a consequence of my position or post. 
Duuuude, I am in totally agreement with you. I'm living in the Socialist state of Canuckistan right now, and I'd totally move back home to the US if the economy wasn't all to shit. They're trapping me in this country with my fat government contract - as you say I'm "locked in the employ of the state," with "financial barriers of the same effect."
It's total impacting my freedom
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Faye Runaway
Occupant


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 9
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: MushyHobo]
#14050890 - 03/01/11 08:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hold on, hold on. Socialism is wrong because any money I make belongs to me, and it should be my decision what to do with it.
Right? Nobody made my money for me, and no one deserves my money BUT me.
-------------------- “It's possible to love a human being if you don't know them too well.”
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MushyHobo
Stranger

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 45
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Faye Runaway]
#14050927 - 03/01/11 08:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Couldn't agree more broseph. And if I want to ride my BMW at 200kpmh+ then that should be my business too. If I scrape your car in the process, sue me, otherwise why bother having courts in the first place? We don't need to pay taxes to have some silver spoon gboy deciding upon all that nanny regulation.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 51
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Faye Runaway]
#14050973 - 03/01/11 08:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Faye Runaway said: Hold on, hold on. Socialism is wrong because any money I make belongs to me, and it should be my decision what to do with it.
Right? Nobody made my money for me, and no one deserves my money BUT me.
Of course. Who needs paved roads anyway?
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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Faye Runaway
Occupant


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 9
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14051094 - 03/01/11 08:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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What does paved roads have to do with it? I just don't want to pay taxes.
-------------------- “It's possible to love a human being if you don't know them too well.”
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14051105 - 03/01/11 08:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
Faye Runaway said: Hold on, hold on. Socialism is wrong because any money I make belongs to me, and it should be my decision what to do with it.
Right? Nobody made my money for me, and no one deserves my money BUT me.
Of course. Who needs paved roads anyway?
Fuck roads. And traffic lights. And street lights. And mail. And fire departments. Fuck that noise.
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MushyHobo
Stranger

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 45
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Faye Runaway]
#14051119 - 03/01/11 08:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Faye Runaway said: What does paved roads have to do with it? I just don't want to pay taxes.
Pay him no heed. I think, and don't correct me if I'm right, that he's talking about the old "roads don't grow on trees" argument which is always made by poor people who couldn't afford to use privately funded roads.
Dude you have no money, you don't get to live in a suburban paradise, if you're lucky enough to have a job then maybe your boss will be nice enough to supply housing close enough so that you don't need to worry about roads.
Don't let the invisible hand smack you on the way out
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Faye Runaway
Occupant


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 9
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14051128 - 03/01/11 09:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok, NOW you're just being silly. They can get paid with fees and bills, like everyone else.
-------------------- “It's possible to love a human being if you don't know them too well.”
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: MushyHobo]
#14051131 - 03/01/11 09:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushyHobo said:
Quote:
Faye Runaway said: What does paved roads have to do with it? I just don't want to pay taxes.
Pay him no heed. I think, and don't correct me if I'm right, that he's talking about the old "roads don't grow on trees" argument which is always made by poor people who couldn't afford to use privately funded roads.
Dude you have no money, you don't get to live in a suburban paradise, if you're lucky enough to have a job then maybe your boss will be nice enough to supply housing close enough so that you don't need to worry about roads.
Don't let the invisible hand smack you on the way out 
Fuck yeah. I'm starting myself a private traffic light service. You pay $50, the light turns green for 4 and a half seconds. It's the 'Murrican way.
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Faye Runaway
Occupant


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 9
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14051171 - 03/01/11 09:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Tollbooths. It's that easy. Pay for only what you use.
-------------------- “It's possible to love a human being if you don't know them too well.”
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Net
Official Mr Shoebat Lackey



Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 32
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14051181 - 03/01/11 09:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
Faye Runaway said: Hold on, hold on. Socialism is wrong because any money I make belongs to me, and it should be my decision what to do with it.
Right? Nobody made my money for me, and no one deserves my money BUT me.
Of course. Who needs paved roads anyway?
Have you ever noticed how private toll roads are really, really nice?
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
Faye Runaway said: Hold on, hold on. Socialism is wrong because any money I make belongs to me, and it should be my decision what to do with it.
Right? Nobody made my money for me, and no one deserves my money BUT me.
Of course. Who needs paved roads anyway?
Fuck roads. And traffic lights. And street lights. And mail. And fire departments. Fuck that noise.
And fucking them is what the government does best:
Roads, except for private toll roads, are pothole riddled shit-cakes across the country.
Have you seen these new traffic lights? They're utter crap. You can't see them unless you're at the correct angle. Only government could fuck up something as simple as goddamn lights.
Street lights? Pure socialistic waste. What are headlights on your car for? Who doesn't own a flashlight?
Private mail services beat the snot out of USPS.
Firefighters? Greedy, unionized lazy fucks don't even work a regular schedule.
-------------------- “In all institutions from which the cold wind of open criticism is excluded, an innocent corruption begins to grow like a mushroom - for example, in senates and learned societies” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 51
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Faye Runaway]
#14051192 - 03/01/11 09:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Faye Runaway said: Ok, NOW you're just being silly. They can get paid with fees and bills, like everyone else.
No, no, you're right. Your money is yours and yours alone. You said it yourself. Not any toll road's money. Not any grocery store's money. Not any fire department's money. Not any car company's money.
Your money.
I'd recommend learning to farm.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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Canis latrans
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14052011 - 03/01/11 11:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have a question for all you gentlemen.
If an organization that guarantees all employees the same salary and benefits regardless of the amount of work different employees may do a socialist one? And what if pay increases were simply granted based on the amount of time an employee had been with the company instead of merit? Further more, what if this hypothetical company subsisted wholly on tax monies gathered from public?
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Canis latrans]
#14052021 - 03/01/11 11:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Canis latrans said: I have a question for all you gentlemen.
If an organization that guarantees all employees the same salary and benefits regardless of the amount of work different employees may do a socialist one? And what if pay increases were simply granted based on the amount of time an employee had been with the company instead of merit? Further more, what if this hypothetical company subsisted wholly on tax monies gathered from public?
LOL. America's Red Army.
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Viveka
refutation bias


Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14053008 - 03/02/11 06:39 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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What schizophrenic is having a conversation with themselves here?
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Atomsk
King of the Space Pirates


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 34
Last seen: 13 years, 7 days
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Viveka]
#14053031 - 03/02/11 06:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Viveka said: What schizophrenic is having a conversation with themselves here?
Thats silly dont be paranoid
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Atomsk
King of the Space Pirates


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 34
Last seen: 13 years, 7 days
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Atomsk]
#14053033 - 03/02/11 06:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Atomsk said:
Quote:
Viveka said: What schizophrenic is having a conversation with themselves here?
Thats silly dont be paranoid
I agree!
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Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 57
Last seen: 13 years, 19 days
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Canis latrans]
#14053059 - 03/02/11 06:59 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Canis latrans said: I have a question for all you gentlemen.
If an organization that guarantees all employees the same salary and benefits regardless of the amount of work different employees may do a socialist one? And what if pay increases were simply granted based on the amount of time an employee had been with the company instead of merit? Further more, what if this hypothetical company subsisted wholly on tax monies gathered from public?
Such an organisation could never exist in America!!
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
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Faye Runaway
Occupant


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 9
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Ygor]
#14053079 - 03/02/11 07:11 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Who cares? It would never work right, if that's the way it was set up.
-------------------- “It's possible to love a human being if you don't know them too well.”
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 51
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Faye Runaway]
#14053081 - 03/02/11 07:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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No one would want to work there, they'd have to bring in robots or something like that.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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PurpleMushroomZeta
Mutant

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 16
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Net]
#14053930 - 03/02/11 10:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Net said:
Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
Faye Runaway said: Hold on, hold on. Socialism is wrong because any money I make belongs to me, and it should be my decision what to do with it.
Right? Nobody made my money for me, and no one deserves my money BUT me.
Of course. Who needs paved roads anyway?
Have you ever noticed how private toll roads are really, really nice?
That's because most of them are owned by Arab sovereign wealth funds.
Quote:
Net said:
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
Faye Runaway said: Hold on, hold on. Socialism is wrong because any money I make belongs to me, and it should be my decision what to do with it.
Right? Nobody made my money for me, and no one deserves my money BUT me.
Of course. Who needs paved roads anyway?
Fuck roads. And traffic lights. And street lights. And mail. And fire departments. Fuck that noise.
And fucking them is what the government does best:
Roads, except for private toll roads, are pothole riddled shit-cakes across the country.
Have you seen these new traffic lights? They're utter crap. You can't see them unless you're at the correct angle. Only government could fuck up something as simple as goddamn lights.
Street lights? Pure socialistic waste. What are headlights on your car for? Who doesn't own a flashlight?
Private mail services beat the snot out of USPS.
Firefighters? Greedy, unionized lazy fucks don't even work a regular schedule.
Amen, Brother!
Public schools? Send your kids to private school, just don't expect me to pay for it. Can't afford private school? Homeschool them. Don't have time to homeschool them because you have to work all the time to make ends meet? Take them out of school and send them to work in a mill. It will help you make your ends meet, and they'll learn valuable life skills.
Police officers? I don't have anything worth stealing, so why should I have to pay for police protection that I don't need? You don't want your house robbed? Hire private security.
Military? Screw that. If you want something done about the middle east, hire Blackwater XE yourself and pay for it with your own goddamn money. Just don't pick my pocket.
-------------------- So like the wall started melting, and we were trying to scoop it up and put it back in place, and the songs on the radio sounded like they all had video game sound effects mixed in, but then when the lamp started talking, I ran outside and climbed a tree, and there were a bunch of trolls down there telling me to come down, and I said no because you're going to eat me, and the trolls told me that I was just tripping and that I should get down out of that tree before I fall and come back inside because it's cold, but I stayed up there and the trolls all left. Then when I thought it was safe I went back into the house, and I told my friends about how I almost got eaten by trolls. They just laughed because they were tripping.
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Canis latrans
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Ygor]
#14054548 - 03/02/11 01:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ygor said:
Quote:
Canis latrans said: I have a question for all you gentlemen.
If an organization that guarantees all employees the same salary and benefits regardless of the amount of work different employees may do a socialist one? And what if pay increases were simply granted based on the amount of time an employee had been with the company instead of merit? Further more, what if this hypothetical company subsisted wholly on tax monies gathered from public?
Such an organisation could never exist in America!!
That is essentially how the US Military works.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Canis latrans]
#14054601 - 03/02/11 01:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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No
--------------------
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Net
Official Mr Shoebat Lackey



Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 32
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14054614 - 03/02/11 01:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: No
Well, I'm convinced via your thorough reasoning and exhaustive consideration of the facts.
I'm guessing you are a retired four-star general?
-------------------- “In all institutions from which the cold wind of open criticism is excluded, an innocent corruption begins to grow like a mushroom - for example, in senates and learned societies” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Net]
#14054651 - 03/02/11 01:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nope. Did you know that military service is not a requirement for political office in this country? Crazy but true.
--------------------
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Canis latrans
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14054785 - 03/02/11 01:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Nope. Did you know that military service is not a requirement for political office in this country? Crazy but true.
You still haven't explained your dissent to my stated opinion.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Canis latrans]
#14054825 - 03/02/11 01:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Canis latrans said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Nope. Did you know that military service is not a requirement for political office in this country? Crazy but true.
You still haven't explained your dissent to my stated opinion.
Which one?
--------------------
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Canis latrans
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14055551 - 03/02/11 04:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Canis latrans said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Nope. Did you know that military service is not a requirement for political office in this country? Crazy but true.
You still haven't explained your dissent to my stated opinion.
Which one?
That the US military is essentially a socialist organization.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14055633 - 03/02/11 04:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Nope. Did you know that military service is not a requirement for political office in this country? Crazy but true.
Why am I not shocked that Zap never served?
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
#14056103 - 03/02/11 06:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: The biggest problem with socialism i think is that it centralizes too much power and resources and distributes it in a way that is inferior to the way taxpayers would do it themselves.
This is putting an awful lot of faith in the responsibility of the citizenry on an individual basis. People tend to take a lot for granted that they often cannot even recognize that they are paying for.
The argument that socialism decreases incentive to work sounds logical, but also being poor to the point of poverty in a capitalist system seems to do a very good job of decreasing incentive to work as well, particularly if the people being discouraged and impoverished were/are working hard and long. They have both been effective at discouraging people to work diligently.
I think the wikipedia article linked in one of the earlier posts does a fantastic job of answering the original question, there are plenty of things wrong with socialism AND free-market capitalism. Most are pretty blatant, but socialism has done a pretty good job of failing when 'fully implemented' or transferred to communism. I can't recall how far free-market capitalism has ever been implemented, but when it is implemented more so and the divide between wealth becomes apparent there has historically been backlashes and an eventual shift to more socialistic policy, at least in US history. Often accompanied by rough economic times for the majority of the citizenry.
~Monk
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14056228 - 03/02/11 06:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: No
Articulate.
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Canis latrans
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14056323 - 03/02/11 06:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: No
Articulate.
He can't as the actual workings of the military are outside his limited sphere of experience. It would require him to actually serve to understand how it actually works.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Canis latrans]
#14056346 - 03/02/11 06:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Canis latrans said:
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: No
Articulate.
He can't as the actual workings of the military are outside his limited sphere of experience. It would require him to actually serve to understand how it actually works.
No, I meant that as an adjective not a verb. He is wise and profound. How dare you question the profundity of his wise words... er, word?
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Canis latrans
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 35
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14056370 - 03/02/11 06:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:
Canis latrans said:
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: No
Articulate.
He can't as the actual workings of the military are outside his limited sphere of experience. It would require him to actually serve to understand how it actually works.
No, I meant that as an adjective not a verb. He is wise and profound. How dare you question the profundity of his wise words... er, word?
Oh I see. He is very articulate, but articulate crap is still crap.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Canis latrans]
#14058377 - 03/03/11 03:57 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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> That the US military is essentially a socialist organization.
The US military is not self funding, thus with respect to socialism, it cannot be considered outside of the US government as a whole. Beyond that, socialism often embraces aspects of a non-hierarchical, non-bureaucratic, stateless society while embracing cooperative management structures, trade unions, and the like. Do you really believe this is how the US military is organized and operates?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 51
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Seuss]
#14058607 - 03/03/11 07:06 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > That the US military is essentially a socialist organization.
The US military is not self funding, thus with respect to socialism, it cannot be considered outside of the US government as a whole. Beyond that, socialism often embraces aspects of a non-hierarchical, non-bureaucratic, stateless society while embracing cooperative management structures, trade unions, and the like. Do you really believe this is how the US military is organized and operates?
Non-hierarchal, non-bureaucratic, stateless oppression? I have to wonder what some of the earlier posters in this thread will have to say about this development.
Also, notice my bolding.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
Edited by Lord Amok (03/03/11 07:09 AM)
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Seuss]
#14058662 - 03/03/11 07:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > That the US military is essentially a socialist organization.
The US military is not self funding, thus with respect to socialism, it cannot be considered outside of the US government as a whole. Beyond that, socialism often embraces aspects of a non-hierarchical, non-bureaucratic, stateless society while embracing cooperative management structures, trade unions, and the like. Do you really believe this is how the US military is organized and operates?
Okay. So then why is government health care "socialism"? That's not "stateless", is it?
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Atomsk
King of the Space Pirates


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 34
Last seen: 13 years, 7 days
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Seuss]
#14059557 - 03/03/11 11:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > That the US military is essentially a socialist organization.
The US military is not self funding, thus with respect to socialism, it cannot be considered outside of the US government as a whole. Beyond that, socialism often embraces aspects of a non-hierarchical, non-bureaucratic, stateless society while embracing cooperative management structures, trade unions, and the like. Do you really believe this is how the US military is organized and operates?
So in other words... smaller government.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 51
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Atomsk]
#14060424 - 03/03/11 02:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Atomsk said:
Quote:
Seuss said: > That the US military is essentially a socialist organization.
The US military is not self funding, thus with respect to socialism, it cannot be considered outside of the US government as a whole. Beyond that, socialism often embraces aspects of a non-hierarchical, non-bureaucratic, stateless society while embracing cooperative management structures, trade unions, and the like. Do you really believe this is how the US military is organized and operates?
So in other words... smaller government.
Is the Tea Party socialist? Is that why they call them "red" states?
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14060741 - 03/03/11 03:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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To the previous three posters, rather than pandering to the incredulous, perhaps you could enlighten us with your brilliance and post something that actually refutes what I said earlier. I'll even help you out a bit... there are many different definitions of "socialism". I happened to choose one of them, commonly known as Libertarian Socialism or Social Anarchism.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Lord Amok
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Seuss]
#14060954 - 03/03/11 03:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: To the previous three posters, rather than pandering to the incredulous, perhaps you could enlighten us with your brilliance and post something that actually refutes what I said earlier. I'll even help you out a bit... there are many different definitions of "socialism". I happened to choose one of them, commonly known as Libertarian Socialism or Social Anarchism.
Then your statement refutes itself. That's only one form of socialism. Nobody's claiming that the military falls under that specific form.
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Trufflicious
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14061108 - 03/03/11 04:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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take from the rich give to the poor your work goes toward the benefit of Social Justice and growth Doesn't work most of the time because Moscow politicians are just as bad as Washington politicians However if you want to take a look at modern socialism and how it has evolved take a look at countries like France, Canada, UK, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Italy, and Ireland. While there are some rocky examples, the socialist governments have managed to flourish.
-------------------- “He is like a man using a candle to look for the sun”
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zappaisgod
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Trufflicious]
#14061122 - 03/03/11 04:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trufflicious said: take from the rich give to the poor your work goes toward the benefit of Social Justice and growth Doesn't work most of the time because Moscow politicians are just as bad as Washington politicians However if you want to take a look at modern socialism and how it has evolved take a look at countries like France, Canada, UK, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Italy, and Ireland. While there are some rocky examples, the socialist governments have managed to flourish.
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Lord Amok
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14061197 - 03/03/11 04:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Trufflicious said: take from the rich give to the poor your work goes toward the benefit of Social Justice and growth Doesn't work most of the time because Moscow politicians are just as bad as Washington politicians However if you want to take a look at modern socialism and how it has evolved take a look at countries like France, Canada, UK, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Italy, and Ireland. While there are some rocky examples, the socialist governments have managed to flourish.

As a Canadian, I can tell you that this is actually fairly accurate.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14061232 - 03/03/11 04:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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As an American who once lived very near Canada I commiserate.
By the way, you don't happen to be a Canadian who pays much in taxes or is actually old or infirm enough to need health care, are you?
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TGRR
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14061259 - 03/03/11 04:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: As an American who once lived very near Canada I commiserate.
By the way, you don't happen to be a Canadian who pays much in taxes or is actually old or infirm enough to need health care, are you?
My grandfather turns 100 in May. He lives in Hamilton, Ontario. His health care has been examplary...He couldn't even get insurance here.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14061274 - 03/03/11 04:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Bullshit. He's guaranteed Medicaid or medicare, whichever one it is for geezers.
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TGRR
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14061301 - 03/03/11 04:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Bullshit. He's guaranteed Medicaid or medicare, whichever one it is for geezers.
And does that pay for treatments for macular degeneration at his age? Or early treatment for a cancer or three?
Either way, I am fairly amazed that you're upholding a government-sponsored medical system, rather than extolling the virtues of the "free market".
If it were left to Hartford or Blue Cross, the old monster would have been dead 20 years ago.
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johnm214


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14061914 - 03/03/11 06:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Bullshit. He's guaranteed Medicaid or medicare, whichever one it is for geezers.
And does that pay for treatments for macular degeneration at his age? Or early treatment for a cancer or three?
Either way, I am fairly amazed that you're upholding a government-sponsored medical system, rather than extolling the virtues of the "free market".
If it were left to Hartford or Blue Cross, the old monster would have been dead 20 years ago.
yes, medicare covers all that crap- essentially freely
Quote:
Either way, I am fairly amazed that you're upholding a government-sponsored medical system, rather than extolling the virtues of the "free market".
where did he do that? You say it. but, as typical, dont show it
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Seuss
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14061922 - 03/03/11 06:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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> Then your statement refutes itself. That's only one form of socialism. Nobody's claiming that the military falls under that specific form.
To the contrary, I only have to show one negative to prove the claim false. The original claim was ambiguous. If you want to revise the original claim to something more specific, then feel free, however; my statements hold true for the general case.
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phoxyilluminata
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Seuss]
#14062316 - 03/03/11 07:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Then your statement refutes itself. That's only one form of socialism. Nobody's claiming that the military falls under that specific form.
To the contrary, I only have to show one negative to prove the claim false. The original claim was ambiguous. If you want to revise the original claim to something more specific, then feel free, however; my statements hold true for the general case.
Quote:
Seuss said: > Then your statement refutes itself. That's only one form of socialism. Nobody's claiming that the military falls under that specific form.
To the contrary, I only have to show one negative to prove the claim false. The original claim was ambiguous. If you want to revise the original claim to something more specific, then feel free, however; my statements hold true for the general case.
Via pedantry and chicanery. Just sayin'.
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d33p
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Seuss]
#14062329 - 03/03/11 07:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Socialism explained: http://mises.org/books/socialism/contents.aspx
Non-market socialism fails because of the economic calculation problem. It's impossible short of possessing Laplace's demon or ending scarcity. http://mises.org/econcalc.asp
Market socialism(state capitalism) tends to concentrate economic power, prevent creative destruction, cause unsustainable changes to productive capital, destroy savings through inflation, etc. So many varieties of it so it's hard to explain it in general. Pretty much everything that people bemoan about capitalism is actually caused by government intervention(state capitalism) or worse under state capitalism. http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/Economics_in_one_lesson.pdf
Socialism is evil and stupid.
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Net
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: d33p]
#14062456 - 03/03/11 07:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pretty much everything that people bemoan about capitalism is actually caused by government intervention(state capitalism) or worse under state capitalism.
I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!
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d33p
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Net]
#14063063 - 03/03/11 09:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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worthless replies are awesome
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phoxyilluminata
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: d33p]
#14063164 - 03/03/11 09:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said: worthless replies are awesome
iknorite?
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Hitsuzen
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
#14063231 - 03/03/11 09:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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This thread is all about YELLING and nothing about learning or listening. It's certainly come a long way from being "non biased," as the OP intended.
All this angry bullshit and ad hominem attacks will a) not convert anyone and b) only promote anger between people of different philosophies.
-------------------- Hate never yet dispelled hate, Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible. -Buddha
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Hitsuzen
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hitsuzen]
#14063292 - 03/03/11 09:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Worthwhile Argument
Person #1: Cats are cute. Person #2: No, cats look evil. Person #1: What about when they purr and knead at you? Person #2: Well yeah I mean that's cute. But they have evil looking eyes. Person #1: I can see where you're coming from. Person #2: And they don't show affection like dogs do. Person #1: True, but they do in their own way. Person #2: So cats look evil, but they can be cute in a different way. Person #1: Sounds reasonable.
This Argument Person #1: CAPITALISM or die Person #2: SOCIALISM or die Person #1: CAPITALISM or you make me laugh Person #2: SOCIALISM or you're a fascist Person #1: You're a communist!
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Canis latrans
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hitsuzen]
#14063319 - 03/03/11 09:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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But didn't fascists come into power through socialism?
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Lord Amok
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hitsuzen]
#14063608 - 03/03/11 10:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DrGonz0 said: Worthwhile Argument
Person #1: Cats are cute. Person #2: No, cats look evil. Person #1: What about when they purr and knead at you? Person #2: Well yeah I mean that's cute. But they have evil looking eyes. Person #1: I can see where you're coming from. Person #2: And they don't show affection like dogs do. Person #1: True, but they do in their own way. Person #2: So cats look evil, but they can be cute in a different way. Person #1: Sounds reasonable.
This Argument Person #1: CAPITALISM or die Person #2: SOCIALISM or die Person #1: CAPITALISM or you make me laugh Person #2: SOCIALISM or you're a fascist Person #1: You're a communist!
I seem to recall it being more like SOCIALISM IS EVIL AND HORRIBLE/it really isn't that bad/YES IT IS, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE WORLDS AND SHITS/no, not really, I live with it every day/SHUT UP LIBERAL FASCIST PUSSY BITCH/why/THE FREE MARKET DEMANDS IT
But ok.
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Hitsuzen
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14064020 - 03/03/11 11:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lord Amok said:
Quote:
DrGonz0 said: Worthwhile Argument
Person #1: Cats are cute. Person #2: No, cats look evil. Person #1: What about when they purr and knead at you? Person #2: Well yeah I mean that's cute. But they have evil looking eyes. Person #1: I can see where you're coming from. Person #2: And they don't show affection like dogs do. Person #1: True, but they do in their own way. Person #2: So cats look evil, but they can be cute in a different way. Person #1: Sounds reasonable.
This Argument Person #1: CAPITALISM or die Person #2: SOCIALISM or die Person #1: CAPITALISM or you make me laugh Person #2: SOCIALISM or you're a fascist Person #1: You're a communist!
I seem to recall it being more like SOCIALISM IS EVIL AND HORRIBLE/it really isn't that bad/YES IT IS, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE WORLDS AND SHITS/no, not really, I live with it every day/SHUT UP LIBERAL FASCIST PUSSY BITCH/why/THE FREE MARKET DEMANDS IT
But ok.
I'm a socialist bro. 
Just trying to illustrate that no-one gains from arguments like these.
-------------------- Hate never yet dispelled hate, Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible. -Buddha
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Screaming Eagle
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hitsuzen]
#14064075 - 03/04/11 12:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here's an unbiased definition of socialism: It's what happens when you give idiots the keys to the kingdom.
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Hitsuzen
Space Cowboy



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777] 1
#14064238 - 03/04/11 12:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Screaming Eagle said: Here's an unbiased definition of socialism: It's what happens when you give idiots the keys to the kingdom.
This is a prime example of why this thread isn't worth the time.
(And blocking Screaming Eagle for having 0 / 17 constructive posts.)
-------------------- Hate never yet dispelled hate, Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible. -Buddha
Edited by Hitsuzen (03/04/11 01:19 AM)
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PurpleMushroomZeta
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
#14064886 - 03/04/11 06:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Bullshit. He's guaranteed Medicaid or medicare, whichever one it is for geezers.
And does that pay for treatments for macular degeneration at his age? Or early treatment for a cancer or three?
Either way, I am fairly amazed that you're upholding a government-sponsored medical system, rather than extolling the virtues of the "free market".
If it were left to Hartford or Blue Cross, the old monster would have been dead 20 years ago.
yes, medicare covers all that crap- essentially freely
Quote:
Either way, I am fairly amazed that you're upholding a government-sponsored medical system, rather than extolling the virtues of the "free market".
where did he do that? You say it. but, as typical, dont show it
You did it too. Look at the bolded above. Medicaid and Medicare are Socialist government-sponsored medical systems.
-------------------- So like the wall started melting, and we were trying to scoop it up and put it back in place, and the songs on the radio sounded like they all had video game sound effects mixed in, but then when the lamp started talking, I ran outside and climbed a tree, and there were a bunch of trolls down there telling me to come down, and I said no because you're going to eat me, and the trolls told me that I was just tripping and that I should get down out of that tree before I fall and come back inside because it's cold, but I stayed up there and the trolls all left. Then when I thought it was safe I went back into the house, and I told my friends about how I almost got eaten by trolls. They just laughed because they were tripping.
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johnm214


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hitsuzen]
#14065139 - 03/04/11 08:47 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I see that he correctly stated that in America the given person would have full coverage for his ailments. You have bolded certain words, but I don't see how that shows him endorsing the programs. It seems that he only identified their scope.
Quote:
DrGonz0 said:
I'm a socialist bro. 
Just trying to illustrate that no-one gains from arguments like these.
Yeah, basically I think the original question was poor: pretty much just an invitation for prejudice and sweeping generalizations. As "socialism" is a vague term more often used as a metaphor than a bona-fide lable. Additionally, in the US its not something many people would self-identify with- probably cold war nationalism and tyranical communist states coloring the perception.
I think a useful discussion could be had, but it would need to much more narrow with defined terms. Without this, its not even clear what the topic under discussion is and people are I assume many people who might have thoughtful things to say aren't bothering due to the uninteresting topic. Things such as whether the loss of liberty seen in historically communist states are inevitable or a result of pure Marxist thought might be a better topic I could imagine.
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Hitsuzen
Space Cowboy



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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
#14065471 - 03/04/11 10:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: I see that he correctly stated that in America the given person would have full coverage for his ailments. You have bolded certain words, but I don't see how that shows him endorsing the programs. It seems that he only identified their scope.
Quote:
DrGonz0 said:
I'm a socialist bro. 
Just trying to illustrate that no-one gains from arguments like these.
Yeah, basically I think the original question was poor: pretty much just an invitation for prejudice and sweeping generalizations. As "socialism" is a vague term more often used as a metaphor than a bona-fide lable. Additionally, in the US its not something many people would self-identify with- probably cold war nationalism and tyranical communist states coloring the perception.
I think a useful discussion could be had, but it would need to much more narrow with defined terms. Without this, its not even clear what the topic under discussion is and people are I assume many people who might have thoughtful things to say aren't bothering due to the uninteresting topic. Things such as whether the loss of liberty seen in historically communist states are inevitable or a result of pure Marxist thought might be a better topic I could imagine.

-------------------- Hate never yet dispelled hate, Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible. -Buddha
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