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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14044731 - 02/28/11 07:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
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TGRR said:
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zappaisgod said: That doesn't disqualify what I said. Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.
You seem to be under the assumption that Canada has the same enormous divide between rich and poor. Fact is, they have a (proportionally) larger middle class, and they take up a good chunk of the burden.
Canadian middle class = 33.2% of the population.
American middle class = 20% of the population.
Of course, the definition of "middle class" varies, so I picked one income bracket and compared numbers. I've also seen 73% and 66%, respectively, using lower income brackets as part of the description of middle class.
Of course, you pulled that completely out of your ass. It's also irrelevant.
Naw, actually, I pulled the American figures from Wikipedia, which took its numbers from the US Census Bureau, and the Canadian figures from David Akin, who took his numbers from statscan.
Links upon request.
But keep on believing, old timer.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
#14048655 - 03/01/11 01:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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To answer the OP: Socialism means that some resources and means of production are publicly owned. Based on my experience living in a socialist nation(Canada), this really just amounts to the taxpayers paying taxes and the government providing services in return. I think I should clarify that this is entirely different from communism, in which citizens are never paid in the first place and are simply provided with the resources they need to live by the government.
It's far from perfect, but it's nowhere near dystopian either. The medical care is nice. In my experience it does not, as zappa claims, remove incentive to work.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14048690 - 03/01/11 02:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048733 - 03/01/11 02:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Taken care of? You can survive on welfare. Surviving and living are two very different things. Employment insurance is better than welfare, but you need to be trying to find work in the first place to qualify for it, and you do lose it eventually if you go too long without work.
What you don't seem to realize is that for most people, not being dead simply isn't good enough.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite


Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048770 - 03/01/11 02:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Well, most countries that have some form of social security will pay out less than the minimum wage. So while it is possible to live on unemployment benefit, it is much nicer to work.
Incidentally, while it is traditional for Americans to call anything to the left of the US "socialist", no sane person would call Canada a socialist nation. Maybe Sweden, but not really since the conservatives came into power last year. Even China is moving rapidly towards full-blown capitalism.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14048792 - 03/01/11 02:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lord Amok said:
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zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Taken care of? You can survive on welfare. Surviving and living are two very different things. Employment insurance is better than welfare, but you need to be trying to find work in the first place to qualify for it, and you do lose it eventually if you go too long without work.
What you don't seem to realize is that for most people, not being dead simply isn't good enough.
The more you provide for people the less they are likely to seek more
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Ygor]
#14048800 - 03/01/11 02:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ygor said:
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zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Well, most countries that have some form of social security will pay out less than the minimum wage. So while it is possible to live on unemployment benefit, it is much nicer to work.
Incidentally, while it is traditional for Americans to call anything to the left of the US "socialist", no sane person would call Canada a socialist nation. Maybe Sweden, but not really since the conservatives came into power last year. Even China is moving rapidly towards full-blown capitalism.
There is a continuum. I wouldn't consider China to be going anywhere near full blown capitalism and Sweden is starting to see the light because the bill is coming due. Not only on their socialism but also their immigration policies. Then again, when you are as socialist as Sweden you tend to find a more undesirable class of immigrant raiding your coffers.
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Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite


Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048817 - 03/01/11 02:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: The more you provide for people the less they are likely to seek more
Which is why the amount paid out has to be carefully balanced between "everyone living off the state" and "people who want to work but are unable to find employment starving to death".
But again, I must point out the great disparity between unemployment benefit and an actual socialist state, where the workers own the means of production and everyone lives together in happy equality. With fairies and unicorns, presumably.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048825 - 03/01/11 02:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Lord Amok said:
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zappaisgod said: Your medical care is a bag of shit. You'll find out when you get old and need it.
I'm sorry but why work when you are taken care of? Sure some people will do it for other strokes but that does not mean socialism isn't a disincentive. Even in the USSR some people still went to work. Just not enough.
Taken care of? You can survive on welfare. Surviving and living are two very different things. Employment insurance is better than welfare, but you need to be trying to find work in the first place to qualify for it, and you do lose it eventually if you go too long without work.
What you don't seem to realize is that for most people, not being dead simply isn't good enough.
The more you provide for people the less they are likely to seek more
So let's see if I can follow this. Your logic is: Socialism involves providing enough for people to get back on their feet --> providing everything that people want dissuades them from work --> socialism stops people from working --> socialism is evil. Have I missed anything?
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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MushyHobo
Stranger

Registered: 02/28/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Lord Amok]
#14048904 - 03/01/11 02:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you want my opinion I think the USSA is too Socialist already:
Public Broadcasting Networks? Pffft - mouthpieces for Obama, more like.
Medicare? Yeah, let's just let the old and infirm leach off the young and virile - buy your own viagra, grandpa!
Public Education? What's the point if the market demands that you're just going to end up on the wrong side of a McDonalds counter? Wasted investment. If you can't afford to send your kids to a proper school then GTFO.
Nanny-state regulation? Get those no-future kids out of school and into productive work already - want to stimulate the economy? Don't steal the sweat from my brow and the bread from my pockets. Ha!
No, this is a war, this is the good fight. Money, integrity and honor vs. poor assed laziness.
You know, people like me get vilified for saying stuff like this, but if you're honest you know it to be true.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Ygor]
#14048912 - 03/01/11 02:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ygor said:
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zappaisgod said: The more you provide for people the less they are likely to seek more
Which is why the amount paid out has to be carefully balanced between "everyone living off the state" and "people who want to work but are unable to find employment starving to death".
True. All anybody ever argues about is where to set the needle.Quote:
But again, I must point out the great disparity between unemployment benefit and an actual socialist state, where the workers own the means of production and everyone lives together in happy equality. With fairies and unicorns, presumably.
Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya. Oh I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK.....
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MushyHobo
Stranger

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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14048937 - 03/01/11 02:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya. Oh I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK.....
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hitsuzen]
#14049069 - 03/01/11 03:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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TGRR said:
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zappaisgod said: That doesn't disqualify what I said. Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.
You seem to be under the assumption that Canada has the same enormous divide between rich and poor. Fact is, they have a (proportionally) larger middle class, and they take up a good chunk of the burden.
Canadian middle class = 33.2% of the population.
American middle class = 20% of the population.
Of course, the definition of "middle class" varies, so I picked one income bracket and compared numbers. I've also seen 73% and 66%, respectively, using lower income brackets as part of the description of middle class.
I echo Zappa's unsatisfied request for the relevance of these random stats. What does this have to do with where the tax burden falls?
Quote:
DrGonz0 said:
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Phred said:
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Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way?
Sure thing. Click on the graphic below.

Except most citizens of (semi-)socialist countries don't feel they're being stolen from. Most people in Canada and Europe are more or less cool with it.
Please justify this claim and explain its relevance.
Its my understanding that socialist policies inevitably retard freedom and prosperity and any signifigant amount of these policies in proportion to other countries tends to create an unenviable disparity. Pretty much why socialist countries tend to have guards and walls keeping people locked in the employ of the state, or financial barriers of the same effect.
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MushyHobo
Stranger

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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
#14049134 - 03/01/11 03:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: Its my understanding that socialist policies inevitably retard freedom and prosperity and any signifigant amount of these policies in proportion to other countries tends to create an unenviable disparity. Pretty much why socialist countries tend to have guards and walls keeping people locked in the employ of the state, or financial barriers of the same effect.
Right on! Originally from Kentucky and up in Canada now just because with the Obama recession and all I can make bigger buck here, plus there are some nice relaxed possession policies _for now_ which makes me breathe a little easier, if you know what I mean
But I'm hardly able to take a walk outside without feeling the subdued misery and the tax+spend oppression is as tangible as a knife in the wallet. On the plus side, I was able to register for free healthcare after six months on a work visa, well - I'm am not an idiot, right? In and out. That's my plan.
You know how they say Canadians are more polite? It's just shell-shock. Remember the G20 in Toronto last year? That's the real face of soviet canuckistan.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: MushyHobo]
#14049230 - 03/01/11 03:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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MushyHobo said: If you want my opinion I think the USSA is too Socialist already:
Public Broadcasting Networks? Pffft - mouthpieces for Obama, more like.
 EDIT: Ok, that's not public. I misread the first time around.
Quote:
Medicare? Yeah, let's just let the old and infirm leach off the young and virile - buy your own viagra, grandpa!
Because young, inexperienced drivers never, ever get into horrible accidents.
Quote:
Public Education? What's the point if the market demands that you're just going to end up on the wrong side of a McDonalds counter? Wasted investment. If you can't afford to send your kids to a proper school then GTFO.
Yes, that'll keep the snotty little brats in their place. Taking away all hope of legitimate societal advancement from so many poor children totally won't make gang violence any more frequent than it is.
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Nanny-state regulation? Get those no-future kids out of school and into productive work already - want to stimulate the economy? Don't steal the sweat from my brow and the bread from my pockets. Ha!
And putting so many lower-class people in entry level jobs totally won't make unemployment any more frequent than it is.
Quote:
No, this is a war, this is the good fight. Money, integrity and honor vs. poor assed laziness.
You know, people like me get vilified for saying stuff like this, but if you're honest you know it to be true.
This man is the voice of the future.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
Edited by Lord Amok (03/01/11 03:53 PM)
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Ygor
Cyberite Sybarite



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 57
Last seen: 13 years, 19 days
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
#14049240 - 03/01/11 03:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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johnm214 said: I echo Zappa's unsatisfied request for the relevance of these random stats. What does this have to do with where the tax burden falls?
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TGRR said: Naw, actually, I pulled the American figures from Wikipedia, which took its numbers from the US Census Bureau, and the Canadian figures from David Akin, who took his numbers from statscan.
Links upon request.
-------------------- Flowers gathered in the morning, Afternoon they blossom on. Still are withered by the evening, You can be me when I'm gone.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: MushyHobo]
#14049297 - 03/01/11 03:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushyHobo said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: Its my understanding that socialist policies inevitably retard freedom and prosperity and any signifigant amount of these policies in proportion to other countries tends to create an unenviable disparity. Pretty much why socialist countries tend to have guards and walls keeping people locked in the employ of the state, or financial barriers of the same effect.
Right on! Originally from Kentucky and up in Canada now just because with the Obama recession and all I can make bigger buck here, plus there are some nice relaxed possession policies _for now_ which makes me breathe a little easier, if you know what I mean
But I'm hardly able to take a walk outside without feeling the subdued misery and the tax+spend oppression is as tangible as a knife in the wallet. On the plus side, I was able to register for free healthcare after six months on a work visa, well - I'm am not an idiot, right? In and out. That's my plan.
You know how they say Canadians are more polite? It's just shell-shock. Remember the G20 in Toronto last year? That's the real face of soviet canuckistan.
G20 was less socialism and more Stephen Harper and the global elite. You know, your kind of people. Incidentally, Stephen Harper is a very anti-socialist Prime Minister. The only reason he hasn't done more to Americanize the nation is probably that as a minority PM, he doesn't have that kind of power. As for the misery you mentioned, that would depend on where you are. I hear that Fort MacMurray, for example, is absolutely devoid of happiness. The only reason that anyone lives up there is that it's where the oil companies are, and they pay their workers a lot. I mean, the dichotomy of socialism vs. capitalism isn't the cause of all misery and happiness. It's just a convenient filter. A religious evangelist might look at the same situation and see the misery of the unsaved.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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PurpleMushroomZeta
Mutant

Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: MushyHobo]
#14049315 - 03/01/11 03:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Socialism is wrong, because
1. Jesus said, "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." So that's why it's right to give trillions of dollars taxpayer money in the form of bailouts to billionaires who couldn't cover their bets.
2. CEO's who make $1800 an hour deserve every penny, because they are working 200 times harder than the people on the factory floor. They should get more tax breaks, and if the workers can't make ends meet, then they need to suck it up.
3. Capitalism seeks the most efficient use of capital. All of the goods we buy today are produced in third world dictatorships because it is inefficient to produce in a country where workers have rights and there are laws against dumping dioxins and furans in town drinking water supplies.
That's all for now.
-------------------- So like the wall started melting, and we were trying to scoop it up and put it back in place, and the songs on the radio sounded like they all had video game sound effects mixed in, but then when the lamp started talking, I ran outside and climbed a tree, and there were a bunch of trolls down there telling me to come down, and I said no because you're going to eat me, and the trolls told me that I was just tripping and that I should get down out of that tree before I fall and come back inside because it's cold, but I stayed up there and the trolls all left. Then when I thought it was safe I went back into the house, and I told my friends about how I almost got eaten by trolls. They just laughed because they were tripping.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: PurpleMushroomZeta]
#14049831 - 03/01/11 05:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
PurpleMushroomZeta said: Socialism is wrong, because
1. Jesus said, "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." So that's why it's right to give trillions of dollars taxpayer money in the form of bailouts to billionaires who couldn't cover their bets.
Aside from the deeper idiocy that forcing them to take money they didn't want or need except because of the government's arcane rules, nobody with a semblance of an understanding of the English language should confuse the word gift with the phrase "loan at usury".Quote:
2. CEO's who make $1800 an hour deserve every penny, because they are working 200 times harder than the people on the factory floor. They should get more tax breaks, and if the workers can't make ends meet, then they need to suck it up.
They deserve every penny they get. You can't play centerfield for the Yankees, either. It is not your business to allocate somebody's pay. Quote:
3. Capitalism seeks the most efficient use of capital. All of the goods we buy today are produced in third world dictatorships because it is inefficient to produce in a country where workers have rights and there are laws against dumping dioxins and furans in town drinking water supplies.
That's all for now.
Maybe you should crusade in China. Good luck on your brave endeavor. Uber alles, Komrade, never forget to bravely speak truth to power.
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Lord Amok
Glorious Visage of Punchability



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
#14049922 - 03/01/11 05:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Mired in ideological bullshit, aren't we? I don't recall ever calling you an Objectivist for disagreeing with socialism. Then again, I myself am not a socialist. Perhaps it's a flawed comparison.
-------------------- Viva las Vegas.
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