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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
    #14036940 - 02/27/11 04:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The other extreme is that socialism could create some kind of altruistic utopia where everyone shares and is happy and somehow an omnipotent central authority knows everyone's needs and fulfills it to their delight.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
    #14036942 - 02/27/11 04:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Shins said:


but one company shouldn't get to become that big unless all of the people vote for them with their money.

Otherwise one company wouldn't be able to do it.





Microsoft, Exxon, Halliburton, and MacDonald Douglas come to mind.



It's McDonnell Douglass.  None of those companies have bought an influence in government that comes close to AFSCME.  Further, I don't have to buy any of their products.  Ever.  Unfortunately I am stuck paying for AFSCME unless I stop making money or leave the country.


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Invisiblephoxyilluminata
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Female
Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
    #14036955 - 02/27/11 04:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sonavapreacha said:
So I suppose a doctor who spends 8-12 years of schooling doesn't deserve the pursuit of a wage seeming suitable to the work he put into getting his MD? I just think you can justify that not every wage is created equal, and some people are more ambitious and deserve the wages and lifestyle they worked hard for.




Except... I'm spending a comparable amount of time working to be able to teach people, and I won't be making anywhere near the same income. Nor will I have as stable a job. So.. it's not all about amount of work put in, brah.

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Invisiblephoxyilluminata
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Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
    #14036958 - 02/27/11 04:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The other extreme is that socialism could create some kind of altruistic utopia where everyone shares and is happy and somehow an omnipotent central authority knows everyone's needs and fulfills it to their delight.



You have some sort of evidence for this?

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
    #14036961 - 02/27/11 04:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The other extreme is that socialism could create some kind of altruistic utopia where everyone shares and is happy and somehow an omnipotent central authority knows everyone's needs and fulfills it to their delight.



Kumbaya, my lord Kumbaya.  I think I'll call in stoned today.  Lalalalalala, how was work?  I had a good time.  Lalalalalala being fucked up is way funner than working,  let's go fishing.  Every day.  Lalalalalala


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Invisiblethe human abstract
malaka the werewolf
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 8,817
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: sonavapreacha]
    #14036978 - 02/27/11 04:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

it would work much better actually bc someone would have to put their heart into it not just their thirst for dollars

a lot of doctors dont even keep themselves updated now


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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: the human abstract]
    #14037031 - 02/27/11 04:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the human abstract said:
it would work much better actually bc someone would have to put their heart into it not just their thirst for dollars





And it would be better if there was pink unicorns and shit.

But I thought we were talking about the real world.


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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14037041 - 02/27/11 04:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Shins said:


but one company shouldn't get to become that big unless all of the people vote for them with their money.

Otherwise one company wouldn't be able to do it.





Microsoft, Exxon, Halliburton, and MacDonald Douglas come to mind.



It's McDonnell Douglass.  None of those companies have bought an influence in government that comes close to AFSCME.  Further, I don't have to buy any of their products.  Ever.  Unfortunately I am stuck paying for AFSCME unless I stop making money or leave the country.




You HAVE to buy the products of the companies I mentioned, each and every day.


--------------------
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OfflineHakim0777
aka RACKBONE!!!
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
    #14037162 - 02/27/11 05:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The other extreme is that socialism could create some kind of altruistic utopia where everyone shares and is happy and somehow an omnipotent central authority knows everyone's needs and fulfills it to their delight.




like...canada?


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Shins]
    #14037163 - 02/27/11 05:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
A problem with socialism is that too much power is centralized and eventually corrupt people get in power and often lead socialism into fascism.





A fascist government could replace a socialist one, or a capitalist one, and to state that socialism leads to fascism more readily than capitalism is incorrect, at least if you want to go by the lessons of history. Plenty of socialist countries have never flirted with fascism and the most notorious fascist Nations grew out of failed capitalistic ones.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: sonavapreacha]
    #14037376 - 02/27/11 06:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sonavapreacha said:
So I suppose a doctor who spends 8-12 years of schooling doesn't deserve the pursuit of a wage seeming suitable to the work he put into getting his MD? I just think you can justify that not every wage is created equal, and some people are more ambitious and deserve the wages and lifestyle they worked hard for.





Medicine is pretty far removed from a free market in the US, but I agree with your point anyways.

Maybe if the physicians' groups didn't have government fiat to control who can compete with them, how many of them their can be, and what they can do, it would be more like a free market. 

As it is, the amount of physicians available is much smaller than the demand would dictate, and their wages are comensurately raised.  Its coming around to bite them in the ass though, as areas without physician coverage sufficient for their population have been pushing to take away their keys to the kingdom.

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OfflineTheMacDaddyLongLeg
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Registered: 06/26/10
Posts: 81
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: johnm214]
    #14038134 - 02/27/11 08:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

want to REALLY know WHY socialism is bad?

look up these terms:

Laissez-faire
The Business Cycle
Austrian Economics
Free Market lol

durrr

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hakim0777]
    #14038727 - 02/27/11 09:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way?




Sure thing. Click on the graphic below.




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OfflineHitsuzen
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Phred]
    #14044487 - 02/28/11 07:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, socialism typically doesn't have universal pay rates. Doctors and lawyers still get bank, they just pay more taxes.

As a rule of the thumb, with socialism you're paying more taxes for a higher social safety net. So the rich can't get quite as super-rich, and the poor can't get quite as poor. It basically tries to move the two extremes (poverty and wealth) more toward the center.

I've always been a fan of some shade of gray between capitalism and socialism; probably more toward socialism.


--------------------
Hate never yet dispelled hate,
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.
-Buddha


                           

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OfflineHitsuzen
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Phred]
    #14044519 - 02/28/11 07:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way?




Sure thing. Click on the graphic below.







Except most citizens of (semi-)socialist countries don't feel they're being stolen from. Most people in Canada and Europe are more or less cool with it.


--------------------
Hate never yet dispelled hate,
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.
-Buddha


                           

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: Hitsuzen]
    #14044560 - 02/28/11 07:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

That's because the cost doesn't fall on most citizens.  It only falls on a few.


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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14044572 - 02/28/11 07:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That's because the cost doesn't fall on most citizens.  It only falls on a few.




Ever heard of the Canadian GST?

Of course you haven't.


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What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
    #14044611 - 02/28/11 07:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

That doesn't disqualify what I said.  Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.


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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14044662 - 02/28/11 07:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That doesn't disqualify what I said.  Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.




You seem to be under the assumption that Canada has the same enormous divide between rich and poor.  Fact is, they have a (proportionally) larger middle class, and they take up a good chunk of the burden.

Canadian middle class = 33.2% of the population.

American middle class = 20% of the population.

Of course, the definition of "middle class" varies, so I picked one income bracket and compared numbers.  I've also seen 73% and 66%, respectively, using lower income brackets as part of the description of middle class.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Can someone explain Socialism to me in a non biased way? [Re: TGRR]
    #14044685 - 02/28/11 07:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That doesn't disqualify what I said.  Taxation falls much more heavily on the few.




You seem to be under the assumption that Canada has the same enormous divide between rich and poor.  Fact is, they have a (proportionally) larger middle class, and they take up a good chunk of the burden.

Canadian middle class = 33.2% of the population.

American middle class = 20% of the population.

Of course, the definition of "middle class" varies, so I picked one income bracket and compared numbers.  I've also seen 73% and 66%, respectively, using lower income brackets as part of the description of middle class.



Of course, you pulled that completely out of your ass.  It's also irrelevant.


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