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Manicman
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does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us.
#14035550 - 02/27/11 11:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I've been having a shamanic initiation, and I started to really see the nature of emptiness, and how there is only one actor playing all the roles. I find it incredibly lonely. I read that this is a standard reaction when you start to notice this, but I don't know how I could ever get over this revelation. Maybe I'm just looking for someone to commiserate with.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Manicman]
#14035568 - 02/27/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm sorry for your loss but that's a common feeling for every human. Everyone feels separate most of the time. The idea that there is only one consciousness however seems quite subjective to me.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (02/27/11 12:03 PM)
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teknix
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Manicman]
#14035576 - 02/27/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think thats going the wrong way. Oblivion is lonely. Maybe your interpretation is mistaken?
What though specifically causes this feeling?
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Manicman
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: teknix]
#14035589 - 02/27/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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No it's not like normal loneliness it's just like. Idk tough to describe. Maybe if I just ignore it it will go away.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Manicman]
#14035604 - 02/27/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Could you try to find the root of it then to interperate it?
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Manicman
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: teknix]
#14035656 - 02/27/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Like, um, the illusion of egohood,and the fact that our real source or "self" is the emptiness that manifests us.It's like the opposite of I think therefore I am. Thoughts come from the emptiness, gain self awareness and form an ego early in life, and many people mistake that ego for being real, but the truth is we all share the same source or "self."
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teknix
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Manicman]
#14035735 - 02/27/11 12:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The self is like a personal version of the grander scheme. A single piece of a gigantic puzzle. You are that as as individual interpretation.
Ego.
The demands of this manifestation is becoming more aware, and evolving. Not with absense, but with mutualism. The common grounds that exist in each one of these manifestations, is being seen.
The absence of this existing is used to jar you into questioning the very root of the self. So that you may see it for yourself, as it is hard to explain.
Does that make sense to you?
Edited by teknix (02/27/11 12:36 PM)
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Hakim0777
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: teknix]
#14035772 - 02/27/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Just cause theres a collective consciousness doesnt mean that we dont have separate consciousnesses either.
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Hakim0777]
#14035797 - 02/27/11 12:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hakim0777 said: Just cause theres a collective consciousness doesnt mean that we dont have separate consciousnesses either.
Indeed. The one became the many.
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p4kSouL
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#14035866 - 02/27/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Learn to love yourself, then you wont feel lonely.
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circastes
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: p4kSouL]
#14036866 - 02/27/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well think of all the wars, all the hate, terror, horror and what not "we" have been through. If there is only one thing, one being, it kind of clears all this up. Look on the bright side!
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Kickle
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Manicman]
#14038188 - 02/27/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Manicman said: Like, um, the illusion of egohood,and the fact that our real source or "self" is the emptiness that manifests us.It's like the opposite of I think therefore I am. Thoughts come from the emptiness, gain self awareness and form an ego early in life, and many people mistake that ego for being real, but the truth is we all share the same source or "self."
I agree with this, but I don't see why it's depressing. Is that self depressed? Or is it that ego that wants to remain that is trying to make you feel bad enough to go back to it? Careful...
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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I AM SWIM
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Kickle]
#14038223 - 02/27/11 08:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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idk about depressing.
certainly lonely.
but hey
cuz माया
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rommstein2001
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Manicman]
#14038870 - 02/27/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Manicman said: I've been having a shamanic initiation, and I started to really see the nature of emptiness, and how there is only one actor playing all the roles. I find it incredibly lonely. I read that this is a standard reaction when you start to notice this, but I don't know how I could ever get over this revelation. Maybe I'm just looking for someone to commiserate with.
This is actually called technically the "trance of sorrow", which is the first noble truth of buddhism, all is sorrow. This sorrow, however, is the realization that all is one, the sorrow isn't in the one-ness, per se, but in the desire to unite. It's also, so far as my studies and experiences have been able to yield, the first step along the path toward spiritual awakening.
In truth, sorrow is the illusion, existence is pure joy, existence is Love. Not what the "hippy" kids call love, but Love, the desire to unite.
Liber AL vel Legis, Cap. I vs 29-30: 29. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union.
30. This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all.
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Chronic7
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Manicman]
#14040481 - 02/28/11 06:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Who finds it lonely?
I know this questioning gets thrown about the net like bird feed, but really try & look at it...bring the question into yourself, are you (your core) actually lonely?
Don't assume you are a thing that is lonely, as what is separate from the non dual Self that it could then feel apart from? To feel lonely it must mean it once had company then lost it, being non dual how could that be possible?
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Edited by Chronic7 (02/28/11 06:33 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14040499 - 02/28/11 06:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Something feels lonely can that be denied? If that's not you then who/what is it?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14040519 - 02/28/11 06:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Just a temporary feeling, the feeling can't be denied but it can be recognized that its just a feeling that is in the mind, perhaps it's a fear of total loniless, i know you can figure out what fear that is directly linked to...
I think humans need the company of other humans, so its good to remove the lonliness of not having friends or whatever, join a club, go out etc... but the fear in meditation of coming into the original unicity is a fear that should be faced & dived into fully as its a fruitless fear
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I AM SWIM
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14040559 - 02/28/11 07:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said: I think humans need the company of other humans
ya, we are social creatures.
"And remember, too, you can stay at home, safe in the familiar illusion of certainty. Do not set out without realizing that 'the way is not without danger. Everything good is costly, and the development of the personality is one of the most costly of all things.' It will cost you your innocence, your illusions, your certainty." -- Sheldon B. Kopp + Richard Wilhelm
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14040753 - 02/28/11 08:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said: Just a temporary feeling, the feeling can't be denied but it can be recognized that its just a feeling that is in the mind, perhaps it's a fear of total loniless, i know you can figure out what fear that is directly linked to...
I think humans need the company of other humans, so its good to remove the lonliness of not having friends or whatever, join a club, go out etc... but the fear in meditation of coming into the original unicity is a fear that should be faced & dived into fully as its a fruitless fear
I've never experienced a moments fear in meditation. That seems so weird to me. It's such a safe feeling.
Social animals usually feel loneliness (fear) when totally away from the tribe.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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I AM SWIM
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14041108 - 02/28/11 10:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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EDIT 4 CONTEXT: Basically, I think fear of meditation comes from fear of enlightenment.
Edited by I AM SWIM (02/28/11 10:57 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: I AM SWIM]
#14041287 - 02/28/11 11:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I must not be afraid of enlightenment then or maybe I'm already as enlightened as it gets.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14041339 - 02/28/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Or your style of meditation isn't pushing your limits?
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14041467 - 02/28/11 11:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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That may be a problem for you but I'm pushing my limits every day.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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I AM SWIM
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14041484 - 02/28/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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One of these days, i'm going to spend exactly 24 hours doin' meditation.
without movin' a thang
soon too. prolly this weekend
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: I AM SWIM]
#14041502 - 02/28/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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one of these days.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14041524 - 02/28/11 12:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: That may be a problem for you but I'm pushing my limits every day.
That's cool, i don't need to cause i know that i have none
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14041533 - 02/28/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm glad you think you know something. I'm sure it's very comforting.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14041548 - 02/28/11 12:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Its fun playing one-up with you
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I AM SWIM
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14041841 - 02/28/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Man one-upin' dis guy @ dj thangs is like

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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14041849 - 02/28/11 12:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said: Its fun playing one-up with you
I think you're one down.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14041894 - 02/28/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, my mind gives up very quickly, its a gift & a curse!
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14041912 - 02/28/11 01:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's life my friend.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14042060 - 02/28/11 01:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I'm sorry for your loss but that's a common feeling for every human. Everyone feels separate most of the time. The idea that there is only one consciousness however seems quite subjective to me.
"The minstrel in the gallery looked down on the rabbit-run. And threw away his looking-glass - saw his face in everyone."
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Lion]
#14042097 - 02/28/11 01:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's emotional psychology and is not proof or evidence that we are all one consciousness.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14042117 - 02/28/11 01:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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You yourself are proof and a hinderance to this truth.
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Chronic7
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: teknix]
#14042127 - 02/28/11 01:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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im not laughing at 'you' icelander, just that this could be applied to anyone, cool statement
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: teknix]
#14042136 - 02/28/11 01:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: You yourself are proof and a hinderance to this truth.
Wtf are you going on about now?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14042149 - 02/28/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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That fact that you believe there's a division creates the division.
Yet everyone still treats you with decency and acceptance, even though you are mean to them.
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Chronic7
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14042156 - 02/28/11 01:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I took it as - your own consciousness is the proof, and your mind, the imagined 'you' is the hinderance, as it obscures the one truth through identification with it
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: teknix]
#14042189 - 02/28/11 01:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: That fact that you believe there's a division creates the division.
Yet everyone still treats you with decency and acceptance, even though you are mean to them.
Who am I mean to and whos treating me with decency and acceptance (wish I could share some of your pm trolling)
Divisions would exist even if I didn't. Or are you saying I created the division between the English and the Irish. My god man.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14042301 - 02/28/11 01:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Just by trying to make people sound silly for saying something. I think that's pretty mean.
Your inability to consider another point of view, and accept it as that without constantly trying to find the fault, and how it doesn't coincide with your own outlook. In effect your mindset is creating the division, and preventing your from seeing the beauty that exist within the uniqueness that exists in each of us. As well as the evolution of the human spirit.
If everyone shared your perspective on matters, nothing would change.
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Icelander
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: teknix] 1
#14042363 - 02/28/11 02:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: Just by trying to make people sound silly for saying something. I think that's pretty mean.
Your inability to consider another point of view, and accept it as that without constantly trying to find the fault, and how it doesn't coincide with your own outlook. In effect your mindset is creating the division, and preventing your from seeing the beauty that exist within the uniqueness that exists in each of us. As well as the evolution of the human spirit.
If everyone shared your perspective on matters, nothing would change.
I don't have the power to make any one sound silly. If their post isn't rational I just point to it. I can't believe you are taking this personally and trying to make it about who I am. I have changed myself dramatically over the last few years and yet I don't need to lie to myself about who I am or how the world works. I always consider the other pov in making my mind up. That's why I have been able to change my beliefs over my life. I take in new information and reevaluate my beliefs in light of them and change if the evidence merits it. It may take some time but it happens.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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I AM SWIM
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14053102 - 03/02/11 07:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
teknix said: Just by trying to make people sound silly for saying something. I think that's pretty mean.
Your inability to consider another point of view, and accept it as that without constantly trying to find the fault, and how it doesn't coincide with your own outlook. In effect your mindset is creating the division, and preventing your from seeing the beauty that exist within the uniqueness that exists in each of us. As well as the evolution of the human spirit.
If everyone shared your perspective on matters, nothing would change.
I don't have the power to make any one sound silly. If their post isn't rational I just point to it.
Remember, this forum is dedicated towards Spirituality & Mysticism
You cannot demystify mysticism; especially with rationality.
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I AM SWIM
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: rommstein2001]
#14053104 - 03/02/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
rommstein2001 said:
Quote:
Manicman said: I've been having a shamanic initiation, and I started to really see the nature of emptiness, and how there is only one actor playing all the roles. I find it incredibly lonely. I read that this is a standard reaction when you start to notice this, but I don't know how I could ever get over this revelation. Maybe I'm just looking for someone to commiserate with.
This is actually called technically the "trance of sorrow", which is the first noble truth of buddhism, all is sorrow. This sorrow, however, is the realization that all is one, the sorrow isn't in the one-ness, per se, but in the desire to unite. It's also, so far as my studies and experiences have been able to yield, the first step along the path toward spiritual awakening.
In truth, sorrow is the illusion, existence is pure joy, existence is Love. Not what the "hippy" kids call love, but Love, the desire to unite.
Liber AL vel Legis, Cap. I vs 29-30: 29. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union.
30. This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all.
I just want to re-quote this, because I think it is relevant for the OP.
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huxmush
Wanderer


Registered: 04/03/03
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: I AM SWIM]
#14053145 - 03/02/11 07:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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This thread is relevent to the OP's question as well.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: I AM SWIM]
#14053283 - 03/02/11 08:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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We all need some rationality to discuss any topic. If one cannot point out a seemingly irrational assumption even the idea of "discussion" goes out the window here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14053545 - 03/02/11 09:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The rules here do not require that posts necessarily be rational. If that's what you're interested in, stick to the PS&P forum.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Diploid]
#14053658 - 03/02/11 09:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I realize this and agree. Still I may point out that one is not making a rational case for a belief when imo they think what they are stating is rational.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14054124 - 03/02/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's good, IMO there's no real use for comforting beliefs in spirituality, it's such a shame that for billions of people comforting beliefs are actually the whole of their spirituality
Losing the need to believe in anything i think was one of the most relieving & comforting experiences that i've come across, losing the need to finalize & put Life into one solid mental philosophy that i could hold onto forever & finally just getting to live life without thoughts (beliefs) getting in the way. Real freedom.
Its funny how when you STOP believing & STOP trying to figure it all out, it all just 'is'
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14054151 - 03/02/11 11:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It would be nice if that were possible. However If I were to go back and look at your posts we would find you expressing lots and lots of beliefs.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Icelander]
#14054184 - 03/02/11 11:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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So you believe its not possible to not believe...
It appears i believe in stuff, all i really do is use words to express my experience
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: does anyone else find it depressing that there's only one of us. [Re: Chronic7]
#14054343 - 03/02/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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YOu make statements of belief here all the time. And what you are actually doing with experience is interpreting it. Which is also belief. 
Everyone does this.
Fact is that we are not the creator of our human experience as far as we can tell. We did not create our body or our brain which thinks about all this. So it's all belief.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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