|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
Oysterhead

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 42
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Terry M]
#14281793 - 04/13/11 01:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Just a thought since we have them in abundance here: what about dried corn husk?
-------------------- Never kick a fresh terd on a hot day.
|
NSF
Eager to learn


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 548
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Oysterhead]
#14282059 - 04/13/11 02:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The green leafy part from corn is meant to be great for oysters, allowing BE in excess of 175%. I don't know about shiitake though.
Broken up dried corn cobs make for a great sub too i hear, just can't get my hands on any.
--------------------
|
FractalXplora
Grainiack




Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 2,494
Loc: UK
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: NSF]
#14282253 - 04/13/11 04:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
lots of interesting experiments
--------------------

|
Oysterhead

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 42
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: NSF]
#14282584 - 04/13/11 07:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
NSF said: The green leafy part from corn is meant to be great for oysters, allowing BE in excess of 175%. I don't know about shiitake though.
Broken up dried corn cobs make for a great sub too i hear, just can't get my hands on any.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is BE?
Additionally, the kind of husks I am speaking about are sold to be used for tamale wrappers, so they are literally dried - no green to them. Would it still work and could it be pasteurized?
As for the broken up corn cob, there are a few cat litters/pet bedding that consist solely of broken up corn cob, i.e.,
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753575
Also found this one, which according to the label is sanitized:
http://www.petco.com/product/106730/Natural-Corn-Cobs-with-the-PureLite-Process-Bird-And-Small-Animal-LitterBedding.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch
Could either of those be used as the sole constituent of a bulk sub and be ONLY pasteurized?
-------------------- Never kick a fresh terd on a hot day.
Edited by Oysterhead (04/13/11 07:51 AM)
|
NSF
Eager to learn


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 548
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Oysterhead]
#14282700 - 04/13/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Apologies, BE = Biological Efficiency, which means, if you have 1kg of dry substrate, add water, pasteurise, add spawn and fruit 1kg of shrooms, then you have 100% BE.
And yes, dried is fine, just like straw really.
Here's the study that goes into more detail than you'll ever need, apologies, it's a massive PDF, so be patient with the loading: http://journals2005.pasteur.ac.ir/WJMB/21(4).pdf#page=204
And thanks for the links, I'll have to see whether any Australian pet bedding has corn.
--------------------
|
Oysterhead

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 42
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: NSF]
#14282864 - 04/13/11 09:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
NSF said: Apologies, BE = Biological Efficiency, which means, if you have 1kg of dry substrate, add water, pasteurise, add spawn and fruit 1kg of shrooms, then you have 100% BE.
And yes, dried is fine, just like straw really.
Here's the study that goes into more detail than you'll ever need, apologies, it's a massive PDF, so be patient with the loading: http://journals2005.pasteur.ac.ir/WJMB/21(4).pdf#page=204
And thanks for the links, I'll have to see whether any Australian pet bedding has corn.
Thanks for that link. I have a degree in biology and it never occurred to me to search the literature. Luckily I am in grad school right now, so I have access to several databases through school. I will definitely be putting that resource to work.
Thanks again!
-------------------- Never kick a fresh terd on a hot day.
|
Oysterhead

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 42
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: NSF]
#14286501 - 04/13/11 08:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Looks like corn husks would be a no go. I found a journal article that indicates that the mycelial density on corn husks was considered "poor" and that the BE for Pleurotus on corn husks was 16.5%. Corn husks apparently only slightly surpassed rice husks (is that the same thing is rice hulls?). Here's a link to at least the abstract.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/6m6vtwrd5tvntbqr/
Unfortunately, I cannot outright provide the paper for everyone as it is copyrighted material.
NSF - I know you stated that BE on green leaf matter from corn was in excess of 175%, but that doesn't sound right. How can something be more biologically efficient than 100%?
I hope rice husks is not the same thing as rice hulls - I was looking at rice hulls as a possibility because I can purchase those in 50lb. bags for right at a dollar a pound.
-------------------- Never kick a fresh terd on a hot day.
|
Oysterhead

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 42
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Oysterhead]
#14286526 - 04/13/11 08:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Lovely. Rice husks = rice hulls. Back to the drawing board.
Although, I wonder if a combination of the rice hulls and corn cob litter would suffice and only need pasteurizing?
-------------------- Never kick a fresh terd on a hot day.
|
NSF
Eager to learn


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 548
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Oysterhead]
#14287810 - 04/14/11 12:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You mustn't have read the article because there's a formula in there. But to be honest i thought the same thinh you did, how can it be possible but what one side of the equation doesn't take into account is water.
So you are comparing DRY weight of substrate with weight of picked shrooms. So the shrooms are full of water, so that's how they can weigh more than 100%.
--------------------
|
MonkeyKnifeFight
Stranger


Registered: 06/08/10
Posts: 772
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: NSF]
#14290050 - 04/14/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I tried some fresh corn cobs once and they contaminated pretty badly. Not sure if that's common though.
|
Oysterhead

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 42
|
|
Quote:
MonkeyKnifeFight said: I tried some fresh corn cobs once and they contaminated pretty badly. Not sure if that's common though.
What NSF and I were referring to is dried, crushed corn cob. I know I read a post where RR said it could be used as a bulk sub, but not for casing.
-------------------- Never kick a fresh terd on a hot day.
|
NSF
Eager to learn


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 548
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Oysterhead]
#14293615 - 04/15/11 12:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yup, oysterhead was right, dried corn cob. I'm trying to find some here in aus for an H Ulmarius grow. Corn and fungi seem to enjoy each other's company...is it stropharia that accelerates corn growth?!
--------------------
|
BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain



Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 354
Last seen: 9 years, 26 days
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Oysterhead]
#14310347 - 04/18/11 03:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Oysterhead said: NSF - I know you stated that BE on green leaf matter from corn was in excess of 175%, but that doesn't sound right. How can something be more biologically efficient than 100%?
Biological efficiency can seem arbitrary. It's one of several ways of collecting data based on substrate, strain, humidity, fresh air exchange, and temperature. The idea behind biological efficiency, and why I think it is arbitrary, is that it's saying one pound of fresh mushrooms grown from a dry pound of substrate that is moistened to capacity (thus becoming heavier than a pound) is 100% efficient. Who is to say that is 100% efficient? Well whoever came up with this system does. And that is why it is arbitrary.
If it is confusing, I'll explain it with more detailed examples then I'll give you other ways of collecting data. One thing to note: BE is a measure of growth based on weight of substrate before water has been added.
The reason Biological Efficiency (BE) is important to understand is because it's a catch phrase that the mycological community has become attached to, including the Shroomery. It is a standard that when expressed is usually understood by everyone else within this community.
Consider this example. Let's say you want to grow oyster mushrooms. You decide straw is a good substrate on which to grow oyster mushrooms, because based on your research you've discovered it is easy to pasteurize and slow to contaminate, as well it tends to yield well. To develop a set of data that allows you to predict how many pounds of oyster mushrooms you will be able to grow based on how many pounds of dry straw you use, you use the BE standard. You take ten (10) pounds of dry straw and then pasteurize them in a hot water bath (thus allowing the straw to absorb water and become heavier). You drain the straw for say 8 hours. You expect to be consistent with this procedure. You then inoculate this straw with oyster spawn (the amount of grain you use must be consistent and factored into the equation as well).
A week or two later when your oysters fruit you notice they produce exactly ten pounds of mushrooms. According to BE, this would be known as 100% efficient. This is how this rating system works. In some ways it is arbitrary, but in many ways it is useful. Let's say instead of getting ten pounds of fresh mushrooms you were able to produce 15 pounds of mushrooms that grew from straw that was 10 pounds dry before being moistened. This would create 150% BE. This is considered very good!
Biological efficiency is subjective, though. If, as a novice mycologist you are satisfied with getting 3 pounds of fresh mushrooms out of 10 pounds of dry straw that has been moistened....well shouldn't you consider that 100% efficient? Some mushrooms species and strains will never achieve 100% BE (being 1 pound fresh mushrooms to 1 pound dry substrate). Some mushrooms you could expect there to be a higher BE. Simply put, BE is a way of determining yield.
Some literature says you can expect 100% BE out of Oysters. What if you had acquired a stubborn strain? Well you would be wracking your brain trying to figure out why you can't get 10 pounds of mushrooms from 10 pounds of straw. But on the other hand, this is why it is important to acquire or develop strains that prefer certain substrates. Because by isolating vigorous strains you, as the cultivator, can produce higher BE, thus maximizing your net profit (if looking from a business perspective). There isn't a business in the world that would eschew higher yields from the same amount of space and weight of a substrate. Any business person would want to maximize the yield, and hence why BE can be an effective analysis.
Let's say you can get 100% BE of oyster strain X grown on coffee. Well if you inoculate straw instead of coffee with strain X, you might find you're only getting 75% BE (this is just hypothetical). This is why BE is substrate and strain dependent and is useful when speaking in specifics, but not so useful when speaking broadly.
Imagine, too, that by isolating strains you were able to increase your BE from 100% to 102%. This slight difference will see good profits over a period of time. It's also important to note that BE is contingent on temperature, humidity, and fresh air exchange. You might notice that by using the same strain and substrate but by modifying your fresh air exchange you will increase BE from 100% to 110%. This is also an important factor to consider, especially if your net gain from 100% to 110% is more profitable than the amount of money it may cost you to increase fresh air exchange.
I hope this might dissipate any confusion.
|
NSF
Eager to learn


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 548
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
|
BLR you are in effect opening a can of worms by thinking about it like that. I think it's a good can though.
Take your pasteurisation example with 8 hours drainage...what if you only drain for 4 hours, you have more water available which could lead to heavier yields and deliver a better BE.
I think a simple weight in vs weight out measure is important though, basically because it's simple. There are so many variables, as you pointed out, that a comprehensive way of measuring performance is incredibly difficult. Eg. We might grow the same strain on the same substrate but mine is 10% dryer before pasteurisation, so i use a bigger volume for the same weight.
You've made me think though, and i'm certain large commercial growers would do this but it's about tuning your grow for max yield out for minimum resources in. And i'm sure it's a balancing act and varies location to location. Eg. More fresh air in an area with favourable outdoor temp will be more efficient than a non favourable temp.
Then there's the consideration of maybe you don't want the biggest yield, instead you reduce your yield, or alter your parameters to produce less fruit that are more in demand (antlers vs full fruit body, top fruit vs side fruit)
Yeah...lots to think about potentially.
--------------------
|
sandi
omg


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 796
Loc: M6 (Butterfly Cluster)
|
|
Quote:
MonkeyKnifeFight said:
You don't just get fresh grounds and use them ASAP. Sourcing coffee grounds is not difficult unless you live in a very rural area. Any coffee shop will give you all you want. Starbucks by my office gives me a full 5 gallon bucket daily.
I'm surprised. Here, I doubt I could get anything for free at a Starbucks or any other store. If you ask for free anything that is considered trash they usually look at you like you're crazy, or say "sorry that's not allowed" or "legally I can't". Then again I am in idiotland.
--------------------
|
BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain



Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 354
Last seen: 9 years, 26 days
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: sandi]
#14311447 - 04/18/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
NSF said: You've made me think though, and i'm certain large commercial growers would do this but it's about tuning your grow for max yield out for minimum resources in.
...or alter your parameters to produce less fruit that are more in demand (antlers vs full fruit body, top fruit vs side fruit
Exactly. This sums it up perfectly.
Quote:
NSF said: Take your pasteurisation example with 8 hours drainage...what if you only drain for 4 hours, you have more water available which could lead to heavier yields and deliver a better BE.
Exactly. My point in the example was to say that if you stay consistent with one procedure that by emulating it in the future you will achieve predictable Biological Efficiency results. If 4 hours of drainage doesn't cause too much sogginess and allows for higher BE, then by all means, this is a more effective way of growing mushrooms. You've got all the right ideas!
Quote:
sandi said: I'm surprised. Here, I doubt I could get anything for free at a Starbucks or any other store. If you ask for free anything that is considered trash they usually look at you like you're crazy, or say "sorry that's not allowed" or "legally I can't". Then again I am in idiotland. 
It really depends on how you approach them about it. The way you interact with these people will help your acquisition of materials. Be patient, make no demands, be conscious of their space, and if they are slammin' busy come back later. Wait in line. If they ask what you're doing with them pique their interest by telling them what you intend to do. This helps spread the word of myco. You'll probably be asked if you are growing magic mushrooms. Laugh it off and tell them what type you do intend to grow.
If you get your grounds from a local coffee shop, like I do, you can chat with the baristas and build a good community relationship, who will tell other people about your craft, and goodness who knows what can come from that!
From what I understand it is the "environmentally friendly" company policy of Starbucks to give their wasted coffee grounds to whoever asks for them. Talk directly to the store manager. Tell them you'd like to come in once in a blue moon and if there are grounds available would it be okay to take them off their hands. Most people use coffee grounds to fertilize their garden, because the grounds are high in nitrogen.
I recommend intending to build a relationship with local coffee shops first. The money you spend on their business re-enters the community. This is hardly so with Starbucks.
|
MonkeyKnifeFight
Stranger


Registered: 06/08/10
Posts: 772
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: sandi]
#14311635 - 04/18/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sandi said:
Quote:
MonkeyKnifeFight said:
You don't just get fresh grounds and use them ASAP. Sourcing coffee grounds is not difficult unless you live in a very rural area. Any coffee shop will give you all you want. Starbucks by my office gives me a full 5 gallon bucket daily.
I'm surprised. Here, I doubt I could get anything for free at a Starbucks or any other store. If you ask for free anything that is considered trash they usually look at you like you're crazy, or say "sorry that's not allowed" or "legally I can't". Then again I am in idiotland. 
They're happy to hand grounds out. This is true of any coffee shop I've ever asked. To them I come every day and take their trash out for them so they don't care. It's just a bunch of fairly young folks and since I'm in all the time I know most of them. I don't even buy coffee from them. I just walk around the counter and grab the grounds bag out of the bin and they throw a fresh bag in. Totally painless for them.
|
BlueLightRain
WhoaUnbrokenChain



Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 354
Last seen: 9 years, 26 days
|
|
Ditto. I have two 5-gallon buckets in the back of the coffee house. When the gals fill one bucket up they switch it with the empty bucket and start filling that one up. I come every day or two and there is constant cycle of fresh grounds. I put it in my milk crate attached to my bicycle handlebars and ride five blocks home. No energy output.
I buy things from them from time to time but they usually give me free coffee or americanos. They've told me I'm doing them a favor because they don't have to walk the heavy trash 100 yards away. Great folks! Every once in awhile I bring them some mushrooms I've grown and they are very happy!
|
Oysterhead

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 42
|
|
Success! I now have a source for 5 gallons of coffee grounds per day!
-------------------- Never kick a fresh terd on a hot day.
|
MonkeyKnifeFight
Stranger


Registered: 06/08/10
Posts: 772
|
Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Oysterhead]
#14334176 - 04/22/11 04:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
It adds up quick. I have a dozen big oyster bags and two big compost piles all made of mostly coffee grounds.
|
|