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s240779
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Opiates for depression
#14034422 - 02/27/11 04:35 AM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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How do we feel about taking opium, pod tea, and/or isolated opioids for depression versus anything else out there, from conventional medication to other substances people may take for depression such as weed and amphetamines.
The way I see it, opiates are the most obvious thing for depression. They work by mimicking endorphins and enkaphalins, which consequently has an effect on dopamine and serotonin as well. Interesting point: endorphins and enkaphalins are either hormones themselves or are very closely involved with hormones. These substances are very gentle on the body. There's no crash like there is with cocaine or amphetamines. People get confused because of the nasty withdrawal. If you take opiates too frequently, they will throw your chemistry out of balance. Withdrawal is not experiencing any type of detox it is experiencing your own changed body chemistry.
The question is, are opiates the lesser of all the evils? Conventional medication has a totally unnatural effect on the brain. Selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors actually alter the way the brain functions. Opiates merely fill the brain with a foreign version of chemicals that are already handled. There's a significant amount of information that says SSRIs cause brain damage (sorry too lazy to link); there's very little information that says opiates cause brain damage. One author attributes allegations of brain damage to the use of high doses which makes your breathing shallow and if you're nodding off all the time, well, that's a lot of oxygen you're brain's missing out on. This author also claims the thebaine in opium counteracts the drastic respiratory effect and he looks down on isolated opioids. Additionally opium has a very long half-life (opium contains many chemicals and even the morphine and codeine in it are chemically different from the pharmaceutical versions), whereas isolated opioids only last a few hours. You will be less likely to want to take more and more because the effects drag out. Oral use is probably more appropriate as a depression medication.
But seriously, all this fuckin' garbage. Medications that fuck you up. Fuck up your libido. Herbal formulas that don't do jack fuckin' shit. L-tryptophan and 5-htp that don't do jack fuckin' shit. There's only one thing for a really bad case of anxiety and depression and that my friends is the amazingly powerful anti-depressant, anxiolytic opium. Seriously I'm so sick of all this other bullshit. There's NOTHING else out there that has as powerful an effect and will literally envelop you and temporarily put your depression in remission.
Is there any other "anti-depressant" that kills physical pain? No. If that shit can't even cure physical pain, what can it do for emotional pain!?
Of course, medication isn't the answer. Medicine is. But there's a difference. Medicating with opium is for the short term. Medicine would be the aspiration to have normal endorphin levels and all that naturally. And I think there's some good research in taht area such as fish oil and probiotics and thyroid and all that other shit. But that's long term. If you can't even get out of bed in the morning, you need something for the short term.
Can't wait til my poppies arrive next week (trusted source). Gonna hit that job front.
Edited by s240779 (02/27/11 04:47 AM)
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Hakim0777
aka RACKBONE!!!
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14035618 - 02/27/11 12:10 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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Well what does common sense tell you dude? Sorry for coming of as an ass but my answer is a big fat: HELL NO.
But I guess compared to prozac youre probably better off. Prozac will make you hang yourself, opiates will kill ya slowly.
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s240779
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Hakim0777]
#14035816 - 02/27/11 12:50 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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Dude when a person can't even get out of bed they have no choice.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14036027 - 02/27/11 01:32 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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Try st john's, it works. Take a few caps per day and slowly go higher. If that doesn't do enough try smoking some salvia d. That always works. Opium will do nothing for depression.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Hakim0777
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14036040 - 02/27/11 01:35 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said: Dude when a person can't even get out of bed they have no choice.
I completely disagree and if your just looking for an excuse to do hella opiates than have fun but your just gonna get more depressed. Trust me man imo pod withdrawal was worse than heroin withdrawals.
start exercising, eating right, and looking inward. Thats the best way to beat depression. You gotta be your own therapist and find out why its not working. Every problem we have is usually a patterned based problem.
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s240779
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Stonehenge]
#14036056 - 02/27/11 01:37 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Opium will do nothing for depression.
Are you outta your god damn mind. I experience relief just from the friggin poppy pods I use.
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Hakim0777
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14036071 - 02/27/11 01:40 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Opium will do nothing for depression.
Are you outta your god damn mind. I experience relief just from the friggin poppy pods I use.
lol if you cant even get out of bed now once you are cut off from the opiates your gonna fucking crash so hard.
how many pods are you at now?
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s240779
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Hakim0777]
#14036076 - 02/27/11 01:41 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Hakim0777 said:
Quote:
superhigh said: Dude when a person can't even get out of bed they have no choice.
I completely disagree and if your just looking for an excuse to do hella opiates than have fun but your just gonna get more depressed. Trust me man imo pod withdrawal was worse than heroin withdrawals.
Nonsense. Space your friggin' uasge out to avoid withdrawel in the first place. Some people will never experince relief without opiates. But i agree that the real solution is a holistic health solution. Jeez, I stated all this in my first post.
I was at one dose a day using about 50 smalls. And now I'm waiting for next order to arrive.
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Hakim0777
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14036131 - 02/27/11 01:50 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said:
Quote:
Hakim0777 said:
Quote:
superhigh said: Dude when a person can't even get out of bed they have no choice.
I completely disagree and if your just looking for an excuse to do hella opiates than have fun but your just gonna get more depressed. Trust me man imo pod withdrawal was worse than heroin withdrawals.
Nonsense. Space your friggin' uasge out to avoid withdrawel in the first place. Some people will never experince relief without opiates. But i agree that the real solution is a holistic health solution. Jeez, I stated all this in my first post.
I was at one dose a day using about 50 smalls. And now I'm waiting for next order to arrive.
hahahaha holy shit your in for a world of hurt man. you have no idea what youre talking about.
50 is getting up there too. I was up to 100+
Lets see how well you ween yourself off of it(not happening when youre already at 50 pods) and you know whats worse than the psychical withdrawls, that you just might have a chance of bringing down to a very uncomfortable compared to unbearable, is the couple months afterwards where you feel empty and rootless. When you have to figure out how to properly fill that giant emotional hole in your chest that you were lustfully filling one bitter brown chug and gulp at a time.
but it sure feels good now doesnt it?
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s240779
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Hakim0777]
#14036163 - 02/27/11 01:56 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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People who have severe depression have naturally low opioid levels so they're more resistant to tolerance and withdrawel cuz they're just giving their bodies what it needs. At least that's a hypothesis of mine. Partially based on how I took about 25 mg of oxycodone a day sometimes twice a day for like a week and a half straight and didn't experience a decrease in mood afterwards. all i've ever experienced is muscles soreness which is pleasant. I feel like the previous day I worked out at the gym
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Hakim0777
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14036190 - 02/27/11 02:00 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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your hypothesis is not only wrong but too simple. we dont have opioid levels we have opioid receptors.
prepare for the shittiest depression of your life when you stop. here infact lets do a little test.
Stop for three days and tell me how you feel.
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s240779
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Hakim0777]
#14036235 - 02/27/11 02:08 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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Believe me, I know nothing can be worse than making a bad situation worse. But if opioid use can be controlled, the temporary mood lift they provide is phenomenal. That 2 week trial I had with oxycodone I told you about? My mom was dispensing the pills to me. I concede that I would've gone through the pills a lot quicker. You can't deny that there are some fucked up people ion this world whose brain chemistry just won't let them fucntion and opioids are well known for temporarily making people invincible to their demons. Alexander The Great gave opium to his troops to get them through the harsh conditions of warfare and make them brave. Studies show that opaites show very promising results for depression and obsessive compulsive disorder, which is one intricate, bitch of a disorder. And I know people with OCD and how their medications, even when they take cocktails, don't work.
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Grok
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779] 1
#14036590 - 02/27/11 03:33 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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I used a variety of opiates for several years to stave off depression and anxiety, with no ill effects to speak of. These mainly included pods, oxycodone, and hydrocodone. No withdrawls ever. Only a few short instances of increased tolerance (needing 4 pods instead of two to achieve the desired result). The key was absolutely strict moderation. Opiates are mostly benign, but only so long as increasing/ excessive doses are not used and habituation is categorically avoided. I set up a maximum use schedule of twice per week. No more than 10mg of hydro/oxycodone (usually I'd just take 5mg). The anecdotal research I had done suggested that this would be an indefinitely sustainable opiate regime, and for me that turned out to be the case. There are a number of pitfalls that must be avoided. You will have the voice in your head which tries to justify increasing either your frequency of use or the dose involved, and you must be able to recognize this and ignore it. I don't think many people have the sort of discipline and willpower to maintain this though; most find ever increasing opiate consumption too tempting to avoid, and that is the line which cannot be crossed if opiates are to remain an ally and not an enemy. For me, I recognized that in using opiates, the choice was between using them in a very structured manner or eventually being much worse off and not being able to use them at all. It was a very logical choice for me. I cannot emphasize enough though: You have to deeply respect the terms of the relationship with these drugs, or you will get burned.
Eventually I lost interest in opiates. Their effect on me changed. The thought of them does not excite me in the least. Exercising, accomplishing tangible goals, and being social are the real drivers of endogenous satisfaction. Opiates can be used as a stepping stone to these things (I found they increased my motivation and made me more outgoing), but in the end you have to make the push yourself.
*I should add that I found the therapeutic effects of opiates lasted much longer than the main effects. One dose would leave me in a positive headspace for several days, generally. I feel like what opiates allowed me to do was to learn to think and act in ways that eventually helped me overcome the issues I was dealing with. MDMA is useful in this regard as well, but the harsh and protracted crash makes it difficult to integrate those ways of thinking and acting while the experience is still fresh. Plus, it's certainly not something that should be partaken of on the sort of frequency basis that opiates can be. That ties into another benefit of therapeutic opiate use: it leaves you almost entirely free of impairment.
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Edited by Grok (02/27/11 06:04 PM)
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s240779
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Grok]
#14036967 - 02/27/11 04:43 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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That was an awesome post and it confirms my beliefs. Thank you.
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Hakim0777
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14037324 - 02/27/11 05:54 PM (13 years, 23 days ago) |
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are you kidding me? did you even read it? He was taking 4 pods max twice a week.
completely different.
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s240779
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Hakim0777]
#14037490 - 02/27/11 06:19 PM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Hakim0777 said: are you kidding me? did you even read it? He was taking 4 pods max twice a week.
completely different.
He's talking about pure bred jumbos; I'm talking about hybrid smalls. My stuff's so weak it probably equals that.
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Hakim0777
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14037567 - 02/27/11 06:33 PM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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hardly man, size doesnt really denote potency. Size usually is an indication of the type of pod high. IE 50 small pods to me is hella euphoric but 50 big pods sedating.
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Nova
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779] 1
#14040203 - 02/28/11 02:54 AM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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Do you really think a euphoric, highly addictive substance sounds like a good way to treat a mental illness? The only thing it does is temporarily hides the problems away but they WILL come back. And all the time you spend pushing it out of your mind you wouldn't be developing ways to cope like you would if you were sober.
My honest opinion is to get completely sober and maybe see a psychologist. If you don't want to see someone, make an active decision everyday to work on and improve the things that bring you trouble.
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14040542 - 02/28/11 07:08 AM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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.
Edited by Anonymous (03/07/20 02:51 PM)
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Anonymous #1
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.
Edited by Anonymous (03/07/20 02:51 PM)
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13.step
cynical bastard
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14043531 - 02/28/11 05:07 PM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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I was going to say this is the worst idea ever...but after reading your post I would actually recommend you do it.
Srsly, you have no clue what you are talking about, do you? There's just to many poorly understood concepts in your post to even bother with them. SSRI's are the best medication ever brought out for depression, I'll take them for a year, you go with your opium, let's see who is better off. And as a side-note I am currently withdrawing from Paxil and getting the zaps...still the best meds ever (for depression) Sexual side-effects? Yeah, as in being able to fuck like a porn-star for hours...
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s240779
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14043815 - 02/28/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 22 days ago) |
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amilibertine
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14044311 - 02/28/11 06:46 PM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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OP, have you ever been through intense opiate withdrawals?
I doubt it.
The opiates are not helping your depression. They are flooding your brain with endorphins. This wears off with the effects of the drug. This is what causes tolerance and physical addiction. The brain gets used to being fed huge amounts of endorphins. When you stop giving your body opiates the brain has long since stopped making most of the natural endorphins to feed the opiate receptors in your brain, hence withdrawals.
I'm a former IV heroin addict. The absolute worst part of opiates is the crippling depression during withdrawal and during PAWS. Period. You can justify your use to yourself however you want to, but the fact is that opiates are already crushing you. You just don't realize how badly they already got you. It's apparent to any addict just by reading your posts.
Get help now before you waste many years of your life. Good luck.
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s240779
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It absolutely disgusts me. It is just so fucking closed fucking minded. To hear you guys immediately dismiss the concept and narrow mindedly focus on the withdrawel aspect. I wanna fucking puke. Read grok's post on the first page.
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withoutawire
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14046367 - 03/01/11 12:25 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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As much positive opiates show with serotinin uptake, the fact is opiates suppress testorone in major quantities and anyone who has got high/had opiate issues can tell you that depression sucks and is very real. Especially on suboxone.
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Jufin
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Quote:
superhigh said: It absolutely disgusts me. It is just so fucking closed fucking minded. To hear you guys immediately dismiss the concept and narrow mindedly focus on the withdrawel aspect. I wanna fucking puke. Read grok's post on the first page.
Quote:
amilibertine said: I'm a former IV heroin addict. The absolute worst part of opiates is the crippling depression during withdrawal and during PAWS.
They're talking from experience, dude.
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13.step
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14046618 - 03/01/11 01:48 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Have you taken a look at what you have cited? Learn to read sources and learn to distinguish the crap from the good parts maybe then you won't think opiates are good for depression. Just two facts, testosterone suppression like someone said and changes in gene expression (it fucking changes your DNA dude). Oh and let's throw in shit babies as well.
Significant amount of literature , sci-fi maybe...I found this especially useful:
http://www.alexandriayrs.org/ssri-brain-damage.php
Is it really in Japanese? Why would you do that? What's the point? Educate yourself dude instead of spewing badly understood science as the gospel.
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Almond Flour
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Hakim0777]
#14047264 - 03/01/11 07:40 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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While i agree with your views on Big Pharma....I dont see how opiates for depression could end any other way than BAD
-------------------- Hippies and Liberals love Pope Francis, so why dont I quote him for you guys. "There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church"
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Hakim0777
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14047499 - 03/01/11 09:08 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said: It absolutely disgusts me. It is just so fucking closed fucking minded. To hear you guys immediately dismiss the concept and narrow mindedly focus on the withdrawel aspect. I wanna fucking puke. Read grok's post on the first page.
Im done trying to help. You only read what you wanted to read from his post. Have fun shitting your pants!
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Almond Flour
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Hakim0777]
#14047618 - 03/01/11 09:43 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Hakim0777 said:
Quote:
superhigh said: It absolutely disgusts me. It is just so fucking closed fucking minded. To hear you guys immediately dismiss the concept and narrow mindedly focus on the withdrawel aspect. I wanna fucking puke. Read grok's post on the first page.
Im done trying to help. You only read what you wanted to read from his post. Have fun shitting your pants!
Dude your going to have problems if you take ANYTHING for depression. If you take the SSRI route or the new "Opiates for depression" route Your still just masking a symptom. Taking any drug long enough is bound to lead to some unfavorable side effects, some worse than others....and opiates have a track record for some SERIOUS "worse than others" side effects
Throw all the logic, science, and self righteous bullshit you want at the idea, but it doesnt change the fact its.........unfavorable
-------------------- Hippies and Liberals love Pope Francis, so why dont I quote him for you guys. "There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church"
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13.step
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Quote:
If you take the SSRI route or the new "Opiates for depression" route Your still just masking a symptom
I do not and cannot agree with you on this one. A symptom of what? Have you ever experienced depression? And I don't mean the "oh my girlfriend has left me, what do I do now" kind but the growling dark pits of despair that make you want to cut your head clean off as quick as you possibly can, all because you just woke up and saw the world was still there? I'm not having a go at you, just asking, sorry if it sounds to aggressive, I'm passionate that way.
Well depression can actually be a symptom, sure, but a symptom of something like bipolar disorder, which is incurable...then what do you do?
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Hakim0777
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14047763 - 03/01/11 10:21 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
13.step said:
Quote:
If you take the SSRI route or the new "Opiates for depression" route Your still just masking a symptom
I do not and cannot agree with you on this one. A symptom of what? Have you ever experienced depression? And I don't mean the "oh my girlfriend has left me, what do I do now" kind but the growling dark pits of despair that make you want to cut your head clean off as quick as you possibly can, all because you just woke up and saw the world was still there? I'm not having a go at you, just asking, sorry if it sounds to aggressive, I'm passionate that way.
Well depression can actually be a symptom, sure, but a symptom of something like bipolar disorder, which is incurable...then what do you do?
I can tell you what you DONT do...
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13.step
cynical bastard
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Hakim0777]
#14047849 - 03/01/11 10:39 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Really? I was debating with myself whether or not to justify some opiate usage that way...
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amilibertine
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14047990 - 03/01/11 11:13 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Of course opiates make you happy (most the time, until you get REAL bad off) while you're under their effects. Why the hell do you think so many people ruin their lives over them? The temporary relief from your depression while under the influence isn't treating depression in any way. It's masking it while your high and increasing your depression symptoms when your not high and especially while your dope sick.
Fact is suboxone probably does have anti-depression effects. But only if you want to stay on it for your whole life would it be an effective treatment. Plus the way you talk the buzz of full opiate agonists is what you enjoy so suboxone probably wont help you either.
Edited by amilibertine (03/01/11 11:14 AM)
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13.step
cynical bastard
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I'm a confused poaster , are you replying to me? 'Cause I was just joking.
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amilibertine
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14048031 - 03/01/11 11:26 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
13.step said: I'm a confused poaster , are you replying to me? 'Cause I was just joking.
Haha, sorry. I just did a quick reply, didn't mean to target you with it. I forget to do the correct replies for people.
My post was directed more or less to the OP, superhigh.
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13.step
cynical bastard
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No worries,I was just confused...nice effort on your part, but I think you're wasting your breath...he'll maybe come back over the years and see this thread and brake down crying thinking that only if he had listened...
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Not to be taken seriously by any means!
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s240779
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Quote:
amilibertine said: Of course opiates make you happy (most the time, until you get REAL bad off) while you're under their effects.
The temporary relief from your depression while under the influence isn't treating depression in any way.
That's the case with all medication.
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13.step
cynical bastard
Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 2,210
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14048112 - 03/01/11 11:50 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Yeah but other medication don't sell your house and raep your wife!
Dude, just be honest with yourself, don't try and justify your use/addiction with this shit. Opiates are awesome, they are even more addictive then they are awesome, you gonna get WD and you're gonna build a tolerance...go from there and you'll spare yourself some of the hard parts.
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Not to be taken seriously by any means!
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amilibertine
It’s good to be back!
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14048121 - 03/01/11 11:53 AM (13 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said:
Quote:
amilibertine said: Of course opiates make you happy (most the time, until you get REAL bad off) while you're under their effects.
The temporary relief from your depression while under the influence isn't treating depression in any way.
That's the case with all medication.
No it is not.
And if it was then don't you see how that negates your theory on opiates?
You want to see how your depression in doing? Stop drinking your pod tea for 3 entire days and then report back.
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Hakim0777
aka RACKBONE!!!
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,071
Loc: PNW
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Quote:
amilibertine said:
Quote:
superhigh said:
Quote:
amilibertine said: Of course opiates make you happy (most the time, until you get REAL bad off) while you're under their effects.
The temporary relief from your depression while under the influence isn't treating depression in any way.
That's the case with all medication.
No it is not.
And if it was then don't you see how that negates your theory on opiates?
You want to see how your depression in doing? Stop drinking your pod tea for 3 entire days and then report back.
hahaha thats what I said too. 50 pods is getting pretty up there.
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Jufin
Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Australia
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14053174 - 03/02/11 07:50 AM (13 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
superhigh said:
Quote:
amilibertine said: Of course opiates make you happy (most the time, until you get REAL bad off) while you're under their effects.
The temporary relief from your depression while under the influence isn't treating depression in any way.
That's the case with all medication.
Oh definitely. All of these so called mental disorders being slapped on people and feeding them drugs the entire time they are awake is just sidestepping the actual problem that is feeding the depression. To actually fix the real problem will be a lot harder than just popping pills. But I think a lot of people are just lazy and gullible, especially when a man in a white coat with a little certificate on his wall is the one 'diagnosing' them.
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13.step
cynical bastard
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Jufin]
#14053332 - 03/02/11 08:48 AM (13 years, 20 days ago) |
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Shut the fuck up.
What's the actual problem feeding the depression you smartass? Do you suffer or do you know somebody who suffers from a mental disorder? Or are you just a spoiled brat with his head up his ass living in his closet and generalizing his limited life experiences to his own perception of the world?
BTW, don't take this personally, your dumb post just infuriates me.
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amilibertine
It’s good to be back!
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14053780 - 03/02/11 10:22 AM (13 years, 20 days ago) |
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I agree. My fiance has Borderline Personality Disorder. It's basically one of the most difficult mental health disorders a person can have. Medication (along with intense therapy) has given her a almost normal life. You would never know that she had any problems unless she told you.
Before medication and therapy she was a total mess on the verge on death.
She is slowing weening off her SSRI though, which I am happy about. She has a good doctor who knows whats up.
In short, medication helps people who need it. The problem isn't the medication usually, the problem is misdiagnosis.
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bigmike7104
Stranger
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14055277 - 03/02/11 03:25 PM (13 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
13.step said: Shut the fuck up.
What's the actual problem feeding the depression you smartass? Do you suffer or do you know somebody who suffers from a mental disorder? Or are you just a spoiled brat with his head up his ass living in his closet and generalizing his limited life experiences to his own perception of the world?
BTW, don't take this personally, your dumb post just infuriates me.
so your saying taking drugs is the only way to get out of depression? just so you know there's no evidence for the chemical imbalance theory.
and the actual problem feeding depression can be a different reason for everyone. people need to get to the root of the problem not look for a quick fix that just masks it.
im not saying that's true for all psychological problems, but at least for depression and anxiety it is.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (03/02/11 03:32 PM)
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13.step
cynical bastard
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Man, sorry, you have no clue what depression is, that's good for you but bad for me 'cause people like you annoy the fuck out of me.
How do you propose you treat depression when it comes as a symptom of schizophrenia or bipolar? A back-rub?
You are probably thinking of normal depression, what you feel when you brake up with your gf or your kitty dies. That's normal sadness and shouldn't be medicated. The rest should. Period.
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bigmike7104
Stranger
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14055772 - 03/02/11 05:01 PM (13 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
How do you propose you treat depression when it comes as a symptom of schizophrenia or bipolar?
i didn't know you were using it in that context and have no idea about it in that regard.
Quote:
You are probably thinking of normal depression, what you feel when you brake up with your gf or your kitty dies
even long term depression can be overcome without drugs, not just events that cause short term depression
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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amilibertine
It’s good to be back!
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Quote:
bigmike7104 said:
Quote:
How do you propose you treat depression when it comes as a symptom of schizophrenia or bipolar?
i didn't know you were using it in that context and have no idea about it in that regard.
Quote:
You are probably thinking of normal depression, what you feel when you brake up with your gf or your kitty dies
even long term depression can be overcome without drugs, not just events that cause short term depression
Some mental disorders that cause depression cannot be overcome without medications. Some of them cannot be overcome period. Whether or not you think so, the fact is that anti-depressants do actually help people. The reasons why may not be very clear but you can't really argue with results.
Like I said before, mis-diagnosis is a big problem as is over-medication.
Also, SSRI medications in particular admit that the mechanism by which they work isn't clearly understood. It seems like you think that it's all some bullshit scam. While it's no secret that big pharma does take advantage of people, you can't make the argument that man doesn't benefit from the medications that are available. Even though the big CEO's may be greedy as hell, I'd bet most of the scientists and doctors developing medications and treatments do honestly want to help people.
All I know is that when I suffered from major depression and I was medicated I got better. That's all the proof I need. I don't really need to know why it worked or how, just that it did. I haven't been on a SSRI for ten years and I haven't had any periods of major depression since I stopped taking them. When I was suffering I had no real outside emotional causes for my depression. I was in a good relationship, I had a good job, and I had lots of people who loved me in my life. Depression is a strange beast for sure.
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Jufin
Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Australia
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14056266 - 03/02/11 06:31 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
13.step said: Shut the fuck up.
What's the actual problem feeding the depression you smartass? Do you suffer or do you know somebody who suffers from a mental disorder? Or are you just a spoiled brat with his head up his ass living in his closet and generalizing his limited life experiences to his own perception of the world?
BTW, don't take this personally, your dumb post just infuriates me.
I don't know what the problem feeding the depression is, I'm not OP's brain.
These mental disorders haven't been diagnosed for very long, and as someone said the 'chemical imbalance' is no more than a theory. What do you think people did thousands of years ago before there were manufactured chemicals to fix people?
When a doctor sits you down and proclaims you have bipolar disorder, now take these drugs this is just reinforcing the patient's negative thoughts.
I believe that a major reason more and more people are getting depressed is that they are fucking bored with the current normal way of life eg. go to school, get a job, get a wife, get a dog, get a house with a white picket fence, buy this product, look like this person here etc... but they just don't realise where the problem is stemming from, because this way of life is so accepted to be right that it couldn't possibly be why they are depressed. So it must be a problem with their brain all of a sudden.
And yes I am using my life experiences to create own perception of the world. I find that to be much more reliable than other people's perception of the world.
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amilibertine
It’s good to be back!
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Jufin]
#14056836 - 03/02/11 08:17 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jufin said: When a doctor sits you down and proclaims you have bipolar disorder, now take these drugs this is just reinforcing the patient's negative thoughts.
Are you saying that there are no real mental disorders requiring treatment by therapy and/or medication?
I want to be sure want you mean before I reply in full.
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bigmike7104
Stranger
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if ssris are so effective, then how come studies show it's no better than a placebo.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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Jufin
Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Australia
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Quote:
amilibertine said:
Quote:
Jufin said: When a doctor sits you down and proclaims you have bipolar disorder, now take these drugs this is just reinforcing the patient's negative thoughts.
Are you saying that there are no real mental disorders requiring treatment by therapy and/or medication?
I want to be sure want you mean before I reply in full.
I think some people with highly different minds are unable to fit in with modern society and are therefore prescribed drugs to take, which is bad for the mind.
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13.step
cynical bastard
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Jufin]
#14058475 - 03/03/11 05:30 AM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
I believe that a major reason more and more people are getting depressed is that they are fucking bored with the current normal way of life eg. go to school, get a job, get a wife, get a dog, get a house with a white picket fence, buy this product, look like this person here etc... but they just don't realise where the problem is stemming from, because this way of life is so accepted to be right that it couldn't possibly be why they are depressed. So it must be a problem with their brain all of a sudden
Well that's not depression,it's idiocy and there should be a drug for that to, maybe LSD? If people are to stupid to choose what they want in life and just go along and then find that they aren't satisfied with their choices, tough luck, nobody said being stupid was easy, accept responsibility for your own decisions and don't blame it on society.
Quote:
And yes I am using my life experiences to create own perception of the world. I find that to be much more reliable than other people's perception of the world.
Touché my dear, touché
Quote:
if ssris are so effective, then how come studies show it's no better than a placeb
As far as I know that study was a load of bullshit, basically a loser who wanted to hitch a ride on the notoriety SSRI's had won. And that study has proven that they are effective in serious depression, not so clear in mild depression. Also it wasn't that they didn't help it was just that placebo did help nearly the same as they did (about 70% remission if I remember correctly) that doesn't say as much about the drugs as it says about the nature of the different forms of depression.
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
#14061706 - 03/03/11 05:49 PM (13 years, 19 days ago) |
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It's only effective if you can have unlimited amounts uninterrupted, and even then eventually the desired effect will not be achieved while dosage nears OD levels, at which point there is only maintenance and withdrawal available as options.
It is initially effective, but go speak to some who are on high-dosage opiates consistently, (often for chronic pain), and ask them. You'll find that many on high-dose for years get little to no positive effect on depression if they do claim to have it. Many high-dose chronic maintenance patients ultimately become sedentary and find themselves depressive later in the regiment.
~Monk
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bigmike7104
Stranger
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14062504 - 03/03/11 07:52 PM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Also it wasn't that they didn't help it was just that placebo did help nearly the same as they did
which means it doesn't help. a drug has to do better than the placebo group in order to show the reason the drug works isn't because of the placebo effect. after all, that's the whole point of having a placebo group in the first place.
Quote:
As far as I know that study was a load of bullshit, basically a loser who wanted to hitch a ride on the notoriety SSRI's had won
not sure what study your referring to, but i was basing my information on a meta analysis which included 47 clinical trials. if your only finding one study showing this, your not looking hard enough considering there's many going back to at least the 90s.
here's the meta analysis http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0050045
Quote:
And that study has proven that they are effective in serious depression, not so clear in mild depression
not true. the severely depressed group taking placebos had a decreased response to the placebo effect when compared to the mildly depressed people taking placebos. and when the severely depressed group taking the actual drug was compared to the mildly depressed group taking the drug, the two groups had the same results.
so in other words, when the severely depressed placebo group was compared to the severely depressed group taking the drug, it looks like there's a benefit. but when you compare both groups to each other, it shows the perceived benefit shown is actually from a reduced response to the placebo effect and NOT an increased effect from the drug.
even if you take away all the studies showing it's no better than a placebo effect, then what about the studies that show therapy and meditation is effective for people with severe depression. also it's even better considering that ssris stop working for many people in the long-term.
and lastly, if a lack of serotonin is connected with long term depression, how come not everyone gets better on ssris, how do you know it's the cause and not the symptom, and what is the normal amount of serotonin in the human brain?
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Grok
Has Been a Bad Boy
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I wonder, did anyone actually bother to read my post where I outlined how I effectively and without consequence used opiates for the same reasons as outlined by the OP? Furthermore, that I did so for several years? 90% of this thread is complete codswallop, I'm ashamed I actually spent time reading it. I have not seen anything posted here which suggests to me that there has been any deep understanding of the mechanisms of opiate use and how the pitfalls can be avoided while the benefits can be obtained indefinitely. It can be done, given the right approach and militant self-discipline. Ya'll are just...Wrong.
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
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13.step
cynical bastard
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Grok]
#14064256 - 03/04/11 01:04 AM (13 years, 18 days ago) |
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@Grok: Go to the top of the thread and click community, problem solved
Quote:
so in other words, when the severely depressed placebo group was compared to the severely depressed group taking the drug, it looks like there's a benefit. but when you compare both groups to each other, it shows the perceived benefit shown is actually from a reduced response to the placebo effect and NOT an increased effect from the drug.
Logic ain't your strong point is it? So if the drug works better then placebo, somehow in your world it isn't effective?Read my post again, I said the exact same thing only in a rational way. SSRI's work and are great medications, bitch about them all you want, not my problem, but learn to understand what you are reading.
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Not to be taken seriously by any means!
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bigmike7104
Stranger
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14068007 - 03/04/11 07:50 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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yet your the one not understanding.
Quote:
Drug–placebo differences in antidepressant efficacy increase as a function of baseline severity, but are relatively small even for severely depressed patients. The relationship between initial severity and antidepressant efficacy is attributable to decreased responsiveness to placebo among very severely depressed patients, rather than to increased responsiveness to medication.
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0050045
it only looks effective because the severely depressed placebo group had a lower placebo response than normal. the mildly depressed group and severely depressed group on the actual drugs had the same rates of reduced depression.
Quote:
And a new drug, tianeptine, which is sold in France and some other countries (but not the U.S.), turns out to be as effective as Prozac-like antidepressants that keep the synapses well supplied with serotonin. The mechanism of the new drug? It lowers brain levels of serotonin.
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/01/28/the-depressing-news-about-antidepressants.html
here's a drug that does the exact opposite of ssris yet is just as effective. how do you explain that.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (03/04/11 08:17 PM)
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13.step
cynical bastard
Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 2,210
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I'm tired of getting into fights with internet-warriors, I'm assuming you don't have any formal training or experience for that matter in this field?
Quote:
Drug–placebo differences in antidepressant efficacy increase as a function of baseline severity, but are relatively small even for severely depressed patients. The relationship between initial severity and antidepressant efficacy is attributable to decreased responsiveness to placebo among very severely depressed patients, rather than to increased responsiveness to medication.
It says that the drug-placebo difference in severe depression when compared to mild depression was increased because while the placebo response was diminished the SSRI-response stayed the same, which fucking means that SSRI's are working while the sugar pill isn't. Is that so hard to follow?
Tianeptine? LOL
I was on tianeptine and it's very weak compared to any ssri, also, it's a 30 year old drug and you keyboard warriors just like it because it isn't available in the US...The mechanism of action has to do with increased serotonin turnover in the synapse and release of dopamine in the nucleus acumbens.
I just feel like I've wasted 10 min of my life typing this, I hope you actually are interested in this instead of being some outraged loser with nothing better to do.
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bigmike7104
Stranger
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14070874 - 03/05/11 01:07 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Additional analyses indicated that the apparent clinical effectiveness of the antidepressants among these most severely depressed patients reflected a decreased responsiveness to placebo rather than an increased responsiveness to antidepressants.
Quote:
the finding is a potentially important insight into how patients with depression respond to antidepressants and placebos that should be investigated further.
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0050045
Quote:
It says that the drug-placebo difference in severe depression when compared to mild depression was increased because while the placebo response was diminished the SSRI-response stayed the same, which fucking means that SSRI's are working while the sugar pill isn't. Is that so hard to follow?
how do you conclude just because the sugar pill isn't working the drug is effective?
the placebo response is lower than the usual rates, which means it's misleading to use that to compare to the severe depressed group on the drug. placebo rates don't usually decline, rather the effectiveness of the drug increases compared to the placebo rate when it's shown a drug works. so your going right against what the researchers are saying.
also remember the placebo effect can increase with people on the actual drug. this is because many get side effects so they usually know if there getting the real thing.
out of curiosity, what's your experience in the field.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (03/05/11 01:25 PM)
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13.step
cynical bastard
Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 2,210
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Yeah, the placebo effect was lower than the usual rates and the SSRI response stayed the same, why was that so? Placebo response was high as it was in mild depression, severe depression doesn't respond as well as mild depression to placebo but responds the same to SSRI's. As I see it that means that the placebo works so well because it adresses the psychological aspect of depression and that is often enough. The more severe the depression gets the less of an effect that plays while the medication still mentains it's efficacy. Poke a hole trough that one...
I'm a medical shaman inhabited by demons of the 2nd realm.
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Not to be taken seriously by any means!
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bigmike7104
Stranger
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
#14071412 - 03/05/11 03:23 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
The more severe the depression gets the less of an effect that plays while the medication still mentains it's efficacy.
it doesn't matter if a drug is proven to be effective or not, the placebo affects around the same amount of people in both cases. so your wrong in thinking that the more effective a drug gets, the less of a role it plays in it.
if you compared the severe depressed group to normal placebo results it would show it's not effective. what your saying is against studies done by scientists that are in peer-reviewed journals. yet your the one that must be right.
and i'm curious if you could find me a study supporting the chemical imbalance theory of depression in a peer-review journal.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
Edited by bigmike7104 (03/05/11 09:03 PM)
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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A week ago I was really depressed and felt like nothing could change it. I knew what I had to do but didn't care about it and I didn't think that accomplishing any of it would make me feel better anyway. Even sleeping or lying down was terrible and I felt more suicidal then I have in about 10 years.
I ended up eating a roxicet and smoking some weed one night. I felt a lot better about everything and was able to get a good sleep. When I woke up I ate 20mg of adderal which gave me the motivation to start doing what I needed to do which made me feel even better about myself. I felt fine when it wore off and that night was good. I didn't even need weed.
I haven't felt the need to do anymore roxicet or adderal since then but I now feel happy, productive, and hopeful about the future. I really feel like the roxicet and adderal helped shock me out of the depression.
I would seriously recommend against developing a drug dependency to deal with depression.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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13.step
cynical bastard
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Coherency. It ain't just a fancy word.
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