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OfflineHakim0777
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: amilibertine]
    #14048205 - 03/01/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

amilibertine said:
Quote:

superhigh said:
Quote:

amilibertine said:
Of course opiates make you happy (most the time, until you get REAL bad off) while you're under their effects.

The temporary relief from your depression while under the influence isn't treating depression in any way.




That's the case with all medication.




No it is not.

And if it was then don't you see how that negates your theory on opiates?   


You want to see how your depression in doing?  Stop drinking your pod tea for 3 entire days and then report back.




hahaha thats what I said too. 50 pods is getting pretty up there.


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InvisibleJufin
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
    #14053174 - 03/02/11 07:50 AM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

superhigh said:
Quote:

amilibertine said:
Of course opiates make you happy (most the time, until you get REAL bad off) while you're under their effects.

The temporary relief from your depression while under the influence isn't treating depression in any way.




That's the case with all medication.



Oh definitely.  All of these so called mental disorders being slapped on people and feeding them drugs the entire time they are awake is just sidestepping the actual problem that is feeding the depression.  To actually fix the real problem will be a lot harder than just popping pills.  But I think a lot of people are just lazy and gullible, especially when a man in a white coat with a little certificate on his wall is the one 'diagnosing' them.

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Offline13.step
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Jufin]
    #14053332 - 03/02/11 08:48 AM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Shut the fuck up.

What's the actual problem feeding the depression you smartass? Do you suffer or do you know somebody who suffers from a mental disorder? Or are you just a spoiled brat with his head up his ass living in his closet and generalizing his limited life experiences to his own perception of the world?

BTW, don't take this personally, your dumb post just infuriates me.


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Offlineamilibertine
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
    #14053780 - 03/02/11 10:22 AM (13 years, 20 days ago)

I agree.  My fiance has Borderline Personality Disorder.  It's basically one of the most difficult mental health disorders a person can have. Medication (along with intense therapy) has given her a almost normal life. You would never know that she had any problems unless she told you.

Before medication and therapy she was a total mess on the verge on death. 

She is slowing weening off her SSRI though, which I am happy about.  She has a good doctor who knows whats up.

In short, medication helps people who need it.  The problem isn't the medication usually, the problem is misdiagnosis.


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
    #14055277 - 03/02/11 03:25 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
Shut the fuck up.

What's the actual problem feeding the depression you smartass? Do you suffer or do you know somebody who suffers from a mental disorder? Or are you just a spoiled brat with his head up his ass living in his closet and generalizing his limited life experiences to his own perception of the world?

BTW, don't take this personally, your dumb post just infuriates me.




so your saying taking drugs is the only way to get out of depression?
just so you know there's no evidence for the chemical imbalance theory.

and the actual problem feeding depression can be a different reason for everyone. people need to get to the root of the problem not look for a quick fix that just masks it.

im not saying that's true for all psychological problems, but at least for depression and anxiety it is.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (03/02/11 03:32 PM)

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Offline13.step
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14055693 - 03/02/11 04:47 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Man, sorry, you have no clue what depression is, that's good for you but bad for me 'cause people like you annoy the fuck out of me.

How do you propose you treat depression when it comes as a symptom of schizophrenia or bipolar? A back-rub?

You are probably thinking of normal depression, what you feel when you brake up with your gf or your kitty dies. That's normal sadness and shouldn't be medicated. The rest should. Period.


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
    #14055772 - 03/02/11 05:01 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

How do you propose you treat depression when it comes as a symptom of schizophrenia or bipolar?




i didn't know you were using it in that context and have no idea about it in that regard.

Quote:


You are probably thinking of normal depression, what you feel when you brake up with your gf or your kitty dies




even long term depression can be overcome without drugs, not just events that cause short term depression


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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Offlineamilibertine
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14056105 - 03/02/11 06:01 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

bigmike7104 said:
Quote:

How do you propose you treat depression when it comes as a symptom of schizophrenia or bipolar?




i didn't know you were using it in that context and have no idea about it in that regard.

Quote:


You are probably thinking of normal depression, what you feel when you brake up with your gf or your kitty dies




even long term depression can be overcome without drugs, not just events that cause short term depression




Some mental disorders that cause depression cannot be overcome without medications.  Some of them cannot be overcome period.  Whether or not you think so, the fact is that anti-depressants do actually help people.  The reasons why may not be very clear but you can't really argue with results. 

Like I said before, mis-diagnosis is a big problem as is over-medication. 

Also, SSRI medications in particular admit that the mechanism by which they work isn't clearly understood.  It seems like you think that it's all some bullshit scam.  While it's no secret that big pharma does take advantage of people, you can't make the argument that man doesn't benefit from the medications that are available.  Even though the big CEO's may be greedy as hell, I'd bet most of the scientists and doctors developing medications and treatments do honestly want to help people.

All I know is that when I suffered from major depression and I was medicated I got better.  That's all the proof I need.  I don't really need to know why it worked or how, just that it did.  I haven't been on a SSRI for ten years and I haven't had any periods of major depression since I stopped taking them.  When I was suffering I had no real outside emotional causes for my depression.  I was in a good relationship, I had a good job, and I had lots of people who loved me in my life.  Depression is a strange beast for sure.


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InvisibleJufin
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
    #14056266 - 03/02/11 06:31 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
Shut the fuck up.

What's the actual problem feeding the depression you smartass? Do you suffer or do you know somebody who suffers from a mental disorder? Or are you just a spoiled brat with his head up his ass living in his closet and generalizing his limited life experiences to his own perception of the world?

BTW, don't take this personally, your dumb post just infuriates me.



I don't know what the problem feeding the depression is, I'm not OP's brain. 

These mental disorders haven't been diagnosed for very long, and as someone said the 'chemical imbalance' is no more than a theory.  What do you think people did thousands of years ago before there were manufactured chemicals to fix people?

When a doctor sits you down and proclaims you have bipolar disorder, now take these drugs this is just reinforcing the patient's negative thoughts. 

I believe that a major reason more and more people are getting depressed is that they are fucking bored with the current normal way of life eg. go to school, get a job, get a wife, get a dog, get a house with a white picket fence, buy this product, look like this person here etc... but they just don't realise where the problem is stemming from, because this way of life is so accepted to be right that it couldn't possibly be why they are depressed.  So it must be a problem with their brain all of a sudden. 

And yes I am using my life experiences to create own perception of the world.  I find that to be much more reliable than other people's perception of the world. :wink:

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Offlineamilibertine
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Jufin]
    #14056836 - 03/02/11 08:17 PM (13 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Jufin said:
When a doctor sits you down and proclaims you have bipolar disorder, now take these drugs this is just reinforcing the patient's negative thoughts.




Are you saying that there are no real mental disorders requiring treatment by therapy and/or medication?

I want to be sure want you mean before I reply in full.


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: amilibertine]
    #14057795 - 03/02/11 11:53 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

if ssris are so effective, then how come studies show it's no better than a placebo.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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InvisibleJufin
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: amilibertine]
    #14058302 - 03/03/11 02:58 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

amilibertine said:
Quote:

Jufin said:
When a doctor sits you down and proclaims you have bipolar disorder, now take these drugs this is just reinforcing the patient's negative thoughts.




Are you saying that there are no real mental disorders requiring treatment by therapy and/or medication?

I want to be sure want you mean before I reply in full.



I think some people with highly different minds are unable to fit in with modern society and are therefore prescribed drugs to take, which is bad for the mind.

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Offline13.step
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Jufin]
    #14058475 - 03/03/11 05:30 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

I believe that a major reason more and more people are getting depressed is that they are fucking bored with the current normal way of life eg. go to school, get a job, get a wife, get a dog, get a house with a white picket fence, buy this product, look like this person here etc... but they just don't realise where the problem is stemming from, because this way of life is so accepted to be right that it couldn't possibly be why they are depressed.  So it must be a problem with their brain all of a sudden





Well that's not depression,it's idiocy and there should be a drug for that to, maybe LSD? If people are to stupid to choose what they want in life and just go along and then find that they aren't satisfied with their choices, tough luck, nobody said being stupid was easy, accept responsibility for your own decisions and don't blame it on society.

Quote:

And yes I am using my life experiences to create own perception of the world.  I find that to be much more reliable than other people's perception of the world.




Touché my dear, touché :hehehe:

Quote:

if ssris are so effective, then how come studies show it's no better than a placeb




As far as I know that study was a load of bullshit, basically a loser who wanted to hitch a ride on the notoriety SSRI's had won. And that study has proven that they are effective in serious depression, not so clear in mild depression. Also it wasn't that they didn't help it was just that placebo did help nearly the same as they did (about 70% remission if I remember correctly) that doesn't say as much about the drugs as it says about the nature of the different forms of depression.


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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: s240779]
    #14061706 - 03/03/11 05:49 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

It's only effective if you can have unlimited amounts uninterrupted, and even then eventually the desired effect will not be achieved while dosage nears OD levels, at which point there is only maintenance and withdrawal available as options.

It is initially effective, but go speak to some who are on high-dosage opiates consistently, (often for chronic pain), and ask them. You'll find that many on high-dose for years get little to no positive effect on depression if they do claim to have it. Many high-dose chronic maintenance patients ultimately become sedentary and find themselves depressive later in the regiment.




~Monk

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
    #14062504 - 03/03/11 07:52 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Also it wasn't that they didn't help it was just that placebo did help nearly the same as they did




which means it doesn't help. a drug has to do better than the placebo group in order to show the reason the drug works isn't because of the placebo effect. after all, that's the whole point of having a placebo group in the first place.


Quote:

As far as I know that study was a load of bullshit, basically a loser who wanted to hitch a ride on the notoriety SSRI's had won




not sure what study your referring to, but i was basing my information on a meta analysis which included 47 clinical trials. if your only finding one study showing this, your not looking hard enough considering there's many going back to at least the 90s.

here's the meta analysis
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0050045

Quote:


And that study has proven that they are effective in serious depression, not so clear in mild depression




not true. the severely depressed group taking placebos had a decreased response to the placebo effect when compared to the mildly depressed people taking placebos. and when the severely depressed group taking the actual drug was compared to the mildly depressed group taking the drug, the two groups had the same results.

so in other words, when the severely depressed placebo group was compared to the severely depressed group taking the drug, it looks like there's a benefit. but when you compare both groups to each other, it shows the perceived benefit shown is actually from a reduced response to the placebo effect and NOT an increased effect from the drug.


even if you take away all the studies showing it's no better than a placebo effect, then what about the studies that show therapy and meditation is effective for people with severe depression. also it's even better considering that ssris stop working for many people in the long-term.

and lastly, if a lack of serotonin is connected with long term depression, how come not everyone gets better on ssris, how do you know it's the cause and not the symptom, and what is the normal amount of serotonin in the human brain?

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OfflineGrok
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14063004 - 03/03/11 08:59 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

I wonder, did anyone actually bother to read my post where I outlined how I effectively and without consequence used opiates for the same reasons as outlined by the OP? Furthermore, that I did so for several years? 90% of this thread is complete codswallop, I'm ashamed I actually spent time reading it. I have not seen anything posted here which suggests to me that there has been any deep understanding of the mechanisms of opiate use and how the pitfalls can be avoided while the benefits can be obtained indefinitely. It can be done, given the right approach and militant self-discipline. Ya'll are just...Wrong.


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Offline13.step
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: Grok]
    #14064256 - 03/04/11 01:04 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

@Grok: Go to the top of the thread and click community, problem solved :bye:

Quote:

so in other words, when the severely depressed placebo group was compared to the severely depressed group taking the drug, it looks like there's a benefit. but when you compare both groups to each other, it shows the perceived benefit shown is actually from a reduced response to the placebo effect and NOT an increased effect from the drug.





Logic ain't your strong point is it? So if the drug works better then placebo, somehow in your world it isn't effective?Read my post again, I said the exact same thing only in a rational way. SSRI's work and are great medications, bitch about them all you want, not my problem, but learn to understand what you are reading.


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
    #14068007 - 03/04/11 07:50 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

yet your the one not understanding.

Quote:

Drug–placebo differences in antidepressant efficacy increase as a function of baseline severity, but are relatively small even for severely depressed patients. The relationship between initial severity and antidepressant efficacy is attributable to decreased responsiveness to placebo among very severely depressed patients, rather than to increased responsiveness to medication.



http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0050045

it only looks effective because the severely depressed placebo group had a lower placebo response than normal. the mildly depressed group and severely depressed group on the actual drugs had the same rates of reduced depression.

Quote:


And a new drug, tianeptine, which is sold in France and some other countries (but not the U.S.), turns out to be as effective as Prozac-like antidepressants that keep the synapses well supplied with serotonin. The mechanism of the new drug? It lowers brain levels of serotonin.




http://www.newsweek.com/2010/01/28/the-depressing-news-about-antidepressants.html

here's a drug that does the exact opposite of ssris yet is just as effective. how do you explain that.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (03/04/11 08:17 PM)

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Offline13.step
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14069482 - 03/05/11 02:26 AM (13 years, 17 days ago)

:facepalm: I'm tired of getting into fights with internet-warriors, I'm assuming you don't have any formal training or experience for that matter in this field?

Quote:

Drug–placebo differences in antidepressant efficacy increase as a function of baseline severity, but are relatively small even for severely depressed patients. The relationship between initial severity and antidepressant efficacy is attributable to decreased responsiveness to placebo among very severely depressed patients, rather than to increased responsiveness to medication.




It says that the drug-placebo difference in severe depression when compared to mild depression was increased because while the placebo response was diminished the SSRI-response stayed the same, which fucking means that SSRI's are working while the sugar pill isn't. Is that so hard to follow?

Tianeptine? LOL

I was on tianeptine and it's very weak compared to any ssri, also, it's a 30 year old drug and you keyboard warriors just like it because it isn't available in the US...The mechanism of action has to do with increased serotonin turnover in the synapse and release of dopamine in the nucleus acumbens.

I just feel like I've wasted 10 min of my life typing this, I hope you actually are interested in this instead of being some outraged loser with nothing better to do.


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Opiates for depression [Re: 13.step]
    #14070874 - 03/05/11 01:07 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Additional analyses indicated that the apparent clinical effectiveness of the antidepressants among these most severely depressed patients reflected a decreased responsiveness to placebo rather than an increased responsiveness to antidepressants.





Quote:

the finding is a potentially important insight into how patients with depression respond to antidepressants and placebos that should be investigated further.



http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0050045


Quote:


It says that the drug-placebo difference in severe depression when compared to mild depression was increased because while the placebo response was diminished the SSRI-response stayed the same, which fucking means that SSRI's are working while the sugar pill isn't. Is that so hard to follow?





how do you conclude just because the sugar pill isn't working the drug is effective?

the placebo response is lower than the usual rates, which means it's misleading to use that to compare to the severe depressed group on the drug. placebo rates don't usually decline, rather the effectiveness of the drug increases compared to the placebo rate when it's shown a drug works. so your going right against what the researchers are saying.

also remember the placebo effect can increase with people on the actual drug. this is because many get side effects so they usually know if there getting the real thing.

out of curiosity, what's your experience in the field.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (03/05/11 01:25 PM)

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