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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisiblePoid
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Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence?
    #14031532 - 02/26/11 05:25 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Well? :uptosomething:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Poid]
    #14031562 - 02/26/11 05:31 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Because without meaning existence would be meaningless


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Smitington]
    #14031578 - 02/26/11 05:35 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

What's so bad about that? Why do you want to believe that existence has meaning?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Poid]
    #14031621 - 02/26/11 05:42 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Without meaning you really have no reason to do anything.  The very fact that you do do stuff suggests that you have a reason for doing it. If all you wanna do is have a good time, then you have chosen that the meaning of life is to have fun, for example.  I am under the belief that there is no universal standard for meaning, we each have to create it.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Smitington]
    #14031666 - 02/26/11 05:50 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Smitington said:
Without meaning you really have no reason to do anything.


Pleasure has no meaning to me, and it doesn't have to in order for me to pursue it; I believe that the universe has no meaning/purpose, and I don't need it to have one in order for me to have a reason to do something.


Quote:

Smitington said:
The very fact that you do do stuff suggests that you have a reason for doing it.


So? What does that have to do with whether or not the universe has a meaning/purpose?


Quote:

Smitington said:
If all you wanna do is have a good time, then you have chosen that the meaning of life is to have fun, for example.


This thread is not about the meaning of life, it's about the meaning/purpose of the entire universe.




Quote:

Smitington said:
I am under the belief that there is no universal standard for meaning, we each have to create it.


So, since you believe that meaning is subjective, why do you believe that the universe has an objective meaning/purpose?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Poid]
    #14031690 - 02/26/11 05:53 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I don't think I said that the universe has objective meaning.  As far as your other questions, I will ponder and get back to you.


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InvisibleZelse
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Poid]
    #14031707 - 02/26/11 05:55 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
What's so bad about that? Why do you want to believe that existence has meaning?




Optimism, I think. But why not? If it's meaningless, it's not like you were any worse off if you believed it had meaning. Whatever floats your boat. I prefer to think of it as you can't understand the big picture until you stop living in the small one.

Our life is subjective, and the big picture is objective, and you can pretty much never understand the objective while remaining within the subjective. That's relativity. We won't be able to understand fully until we are viewing it from a perspective relative to what we want to understand. Now, whether psychedelics/meditation/etc. offer that perspective, I'll never know for sure until I get there, but some believe they do...


--------------------


Feed my will to feel this moment, urging me to cross the line.
Reaching out to embrace the random.
Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.

Taking the Plunge: My First Trip

The Tao te Ching

Edited by Zelse (02/26/11 05:57 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Zelse]
    #14031773 - 02/26/11 06:02 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Smitington said:
I don't think I said that the universe has objective meaning.


Your answer to the thread title (Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence?) was:
Quote:

Smitington said:
Because without meaning existence would be meaningless






Quote:

Zelse said:
Quote:

Poid said:
What's so bad about that? Why do you want to believe that existence has meaning?




Optimism, I think.


Optimism about what?


Quote:

Zelse said:
But why not? If it's meaningless, it's not like you were any worse off if you believed it had meaning. Whatever floats your boat.


That's kind of like believing in God just in case there's a hell. :shrug:


Quote:

Zelse said:
...you can pretty much never understand the objective while remaining within the subjective.


What do you mean by this? We have discovered lots of apparently objective facts via the use of our subjective perceptions.


Quote:

Zelse said:
That's relativity. We won't be able to understand fully until we are viewing it from a perspective relative to what we want to understand. Now, whether psychedelics/meditation/etc. offer that perspective, I'll never know for sure until I get there, but some believe they do...


I think psychedelics can offer lots of perspectives--many of them are completely absurd, though, IME. :nut:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleZelse
Now with more Vitamin P!


Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 205
Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Poid]
    #14031849 - 02/26/11 06:14 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Smitington said:
I don't think I said that the universe has objective meaning.


Your answer to the thread title (Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence?) was:
Quote:

Smitington said:
Because without meaning existence would be meaningless






Quote:

Zelse said:
Quote:

Poid said:
What's so bad about that? Why do you want to believe that existence has meaning?




Optimism, I think.


Optimism about what?


Quote:

Zelse said:
But why not? If it's meaningless, it's not like you were any worse off if you believed it had meaning. Whatever floats your boat.


That's kind of like believing in God just in case there's a hell. :shrug:


Quote:

Zelse said:
...you can pretty much never understand the objective while remaining within the subjective.


What do you mean by this? We have discovered lots of apparently objective facts via the use of our subjective perceptions.


Quote:

Zelse said:
That's relativity. We won't be able to understand fully until we are viewing it from a perspective relative to what we want to understand. Now, whether psychedelics/meditation/etc. offer that perspective, I'll never know for sure until I get there, but some believe they do...


I think psychedelics can offer lots of perspectives--many of them are completely absurd, though, IME. :nut:





1. I think most people WANT to think the universe has meaning. It is a comforting thought, delusion or not.

2. Isn't that the point of believing in Christianity? It kind of has a be good or get punished mentality, but that's off topic.

3. Like what, exactly? Subjective is internal, like a subsystem. You can't study a graphics card and have it define what electricity is. Anything we can percieve is relative to us. We have different perceptions or realities than other organisms that coexist with us, like bacteria, animals etc.

The bacteria in your stomache is still conscious on a fundamental level, but it can't understand the concept of a human or an airplane or a planet, despite the fact that they exist.

Insects have their own perception of reality, and it is different from ours. They could never understand until they can shed their subjectivity and move into objective space, just like we will never understand the bigger meaning (even if it's just one step up from wherever we happen to be), until we die and move out of the subjective experience that is the human consciousness.

EDIT: Changed the analogy to make sense.

Edited by Zelse (02/26/11 06:28 PM)

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Poid]
    #14031865 - 02/26/11 06:16 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Smitington said:
I don't think I said that the universe has objective meaning.


Your answer to the thread title (Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence?) was:
Quote:

Smitington said:
Because without meaning existence would be meaningless







I guess I didn't phrase it correctly then/or I am turning the question into something else.  I meant existence from the perspective of us, not so much on the grand scale of existence. 

Assuming I understand you correctly now, I utterly surrender to the mystery and awesomeness of the universe, I don't pretend to know more about it than I can.  Therefore, I stick to what I can know and do, which relates to how I choose to create meaning in my own life.


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OfflineNastyDHL
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: Poid]
    #14031930 - 02/26/11 06:28 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Because I have experienced synchronicities so reality shattering that I had no
choice but to either entirely disregard my experience and become insane or believe there is a bigger plan operating behind the scenes of our perception.

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: NastyDHL]
    #14031956 - 02/26/11 06:33 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

NastyDHL said:
Because I have experienced synchronicities so reality shattering that I had no
choice but to either entirely disregard my experience and become insane or believe there is a bigger plan operating behind the scenes of our perception.




I have similarly experienced


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: NastyDHL]
    #14032390 - 02/26/11 07:55 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Synchronicities?

So your saying that because something that has a very low chance of happening, happened to you that there is a meaning to life?

What makes you interpret without doubt that you experienced a synchronization and not just a highly unlikely coincidence?


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineSmitington
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14032505 - 02/26/11 08:18 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

For me, it could just as well be complete random coincidence, but it certainly opens your mind to the possibility that larger forces may be at play, and who can say with certainty that there are not?


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OfflineNastyDHL
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14032579 - 02/26/11 08:33 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Synchronicities?

So your saying that because something that has a very low chance of happening, happened to you that there is a meaning to life?

What makes you interpret without doubt that you experienced a synchronization and not just a highly unlikely coincidence?




The analytical mind fails sometimes...

The thing about synchronicities is that they do not matter to anyone but the experiencer of them. They put the experiencer on a higher path if he/she chooses to follow the signs. If you are not self reliant to the extent of being hardly impressionable in the face of others whose beliefs sharply conflict with your experience then sharing your synchronicities to those riddled with doubt and skepticism is horribly self destructive as your experience will be invalidated by those who are "more in touch". Not that you could sway me (much) from my faith but I have no interest in sharing my synchronicities with someone who has a interest in convincing me that I wasn't being shown my way to a purer consciousness and that I merely want to believe this out of my supposed fear of a meaningless life.

But to shed a bit of light...the sheer volume of synchronicities was literally mind blowing.  Not to mention the gravity of a few of them.

If you ever experience synchronicities of a similar magnitude than you will know what I mean about noone else needing to know (though soon after I experienced them I shared them with alot of people to gain some personal faith (through their faith) in my experience and feel more comfortable in that reality just because I was having a hard time trusting my experience and not going with the central herds mentality of invalidating my truer faith of what is reality)....besides the fact that most won't believe your experiences and will worry about your sanity lol

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: NastyDHL]
    #14032739 - 02/26/11 09:07 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

There are a lot of stories of synchronicities in the spirituality and mysticism forum, and in my experience people are not going to criticize you for posting there.  If you ever feel like sharing I would love to give it a read.

Philosophical concepts however are refined through discourse, so it is fitting that one might want to discuss the nature of synchronicity here.

To me synchronicity is an objective concept, it merely describes the phenomena of otherwise unrelated actions showing patterns of relation.  It can be attributed to mere statistical anomaly, or to the existence of greater meaning.  The later cannot be proven, but it also cannot be dis proven.  Ultimately, it is wisest to always remember this property of synchronicity, as to never get carried away, while also maintaining respect for the mystery and awe of the universe.


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Edited by Smitington (02/26/11 09:42 PM)

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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: NastyDHL]
    #14032752 - 02/26/11 09:09 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Well I just think happiness plus whatever you do naturally is the meaning/purpose of this whole thing.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: circastes] * 1
    #14032854 - 02/26/11 09:23 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I'm inclined to believe what the psychologist Csikszentmihaly believes:

Quote:

“It is true that life has no meaning, if by that we mean a supreme goal built into the fabric of nature and human experience, a goal that is valid for every individual. But it does not follow that life cannot be given meaning… It is one thing to recognize that life is, by itself, meaningless. It is another thing entirely to accept this with resignation. The first fact does not entail the second any more than the fact that we lack wings prevents us from flying.” (215)




Although, more accurately, I don't hold any unchangable beliefs--a la, RAW style.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14033462 - 02/26/11 10:58 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Cool quote!


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: Why do you believe that there is some sort of meaning/purpose to existence? [Re: deCypher]
    #14033547 - 02/26/11 11:11 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I just feel that one cannot correctly say with certainty that there is no meaning.  You may believe there is no meaning, but don't be certain about that which is impossible to be certain.  Zelse illustrates this nicely by discussing relativity.


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