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OfflineAnthony917
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: uber_aj]
    #14031642 - 02/26/11 05:46 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
Quote:

Anthony917 said:
Rich people ARE the economy. They are the business owners, the employers, the REAL spenders.
Besides, they pay 50% of their money in taxes...

Yeah, but do you think Obama will drill for oil here?! No. I agree we should decrease our dependency on foreign oil and drill for our own RIGHT HERE but irate liberal environmental nut jobs won't let us.

Do you realize that the United States is the single greatest force in the entire planet? Other countries don't have our power, so they spend accordingly. Why do THOSE people have their jobs? Who are those people? Europe? In Europe they consider 10% unemployment good. In the United States that's horrible. You're a tard.




You, sir, are a nationalist fool. 20% of our oil came from Alberta bitumen in 2009, btw.




Canada =/= United States


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Anthony917]
    #14031692 - 02/26/11 05:53 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Anthony917 said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Anthony917 said:
Rich people ARE the economy.



Thank you for summarizing the Republican economic platform in one sentence.  Now those of us who actually understand economics can decide whether to point and laugh or weep for the future of humanity.




Explain your all knowing, perfect economic theory



A few points:

1.  Businesses need consumers to buy their goods.  If those consumers are out of work or underpaid, there is a lack of demand.  And if you want to say that other countries will pick up the slack by consuming more, good luck finding them.

2.  A large portion of corporate income which does not come from consumer spending is rent, i.e. unearned income.  It is derived from holding scarce resources in high demand, in expectation of higher profits which have nothing to do with any actual productive effort on their part.  This can be readily seen in oil companies, who also receive rental profits in the form of corporate welfare.

3.  Rental profits also come from land values.  The highest value land is in commercial centers of busy metropolises, where corporations tend to be headquartered.  Their location, with its access to ports, shipping lanes, etc., renders a surplus value to which they contributed no effort.  Taxing such income does not distort supply and demand, and can actually lead to increased production by promoting efficient land use.

4.  The richest CEOs tend to get their income primarily in dividends, which are taxed at a much lower rate than income, thus paying well below the 50% you claim they pay.  Warren Buffet has pointed out that his secretary pays more taxes than he does.

5.  Deficits can be reduced by growing the economy.  Such projects put people to work, which puts money in their pocket that they spend on goods and services, which increases business for other companies, which then can hire more workers, which leads to more economic growth, which means a broader tax base to pay off the deficit.  Meanwhile, austerity measures tend to put people out of work, which means a smaller tax base, which makes it harder to pay off the deficit.


I could go on, but I think that's enough for now.  I await further regurgitation of Rush Limbaugh's talking points.


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OfflineDr. P. Silocybin
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14031717 - 02/26/11 05:56 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I voted for Obama, and based on the alternatives, I definitely would not change my vote.

I've been frustrated with a lot of things Obama has done, mainly the way he tends to compromise with himself before going into negotiations with Republicans, who then demand further compromises which he gives them, and then they vote against the legislation anyway.  At the same time, I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for the progress he has made.  Health care reform was definitely watered down too much, but it's still a huge step in the right direction.  DADT is repealed.  No more federal defense of DOMA.  College loans made more affordable by eliminating the middle man.  Investments made in green energy that both stimulate the economy and provide long-term structural reforms to help us compete in a new century.  On foreign policy, aside from Afghanistan, he's been absolutely brilliant.  He's able to build coalitions with allies and get everything in place so that he knows exactly when to make a move.

I'd say that basically he's a chess player, not a poker player.  That's why he's so brilliant on the world stage, yet so impotent in negotiating with Congress.  He can patiently think several moves ahead and position himself strategically to make the right move at the right time, but he doesn't know how to call the Republicans' bluff when they make their insatiable demands.

Anyway, like anyone in his position, especially in a post-Citizen's United world, he's made way too many concessions to Wall Street, but in the absence of any major Constitutional reform to get corporate influence out of Washington, I don't see that he has much choice.  He's going to need corporate funding to get re-elected, even more so if the union-busting agenda of the Republicans is successful.





that was well put :cheers:

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Dr. P. Silocybin]
    #14031728 - 02/26/11 05:57 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Dr. P. Silocybin said:
and you can't say that the US wasn't involved from day one

it was organized via facebook.
a Google executive was captured by mubarak's people
why was he in egypt?

because the revolution was organized through the internet, via social networking.

we had an aircraft carrier in the suez canal
Obama has got his shit under control.





that carrier is for the protection of US civilians and other assets.
India, Germany and dozens of other countries have warships near these
countries to act as escorts. Just what was Obama going to go with that
carrier if Mubarak hadnt stepped down? was he going to kill a sitting
president or start shooting up Cairo?

what was going to happen with with that carrier in any scenario other than
protecting americas people from what ever happens? Obama has nothing in
this other than probably half assing his job

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OfflineDr. P. Silocybin
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14031758 - 02/26/11 06:01 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

no your right the carrier is just there for protection, its more of a statement than anything else.

what im saying is that Obama was instrumental in initiating the revolution, through online social netwroks ie. facebook

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OfflineAnthony917
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14031782 - 02/26/11 06:04 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I mean you didn't really say anything.

Of course businesses need consumers...and consumers need jobs, which the rich people supply, because they own the businesses.


If we're talking about the richest people in the world, then of course they don't pay that much in taxes, because they just live off of trust funds. I'm talking about the people who are in the top tax bracket, the people making 350k+ a year. They pay 50% in taxes. Maybe not federal income tax, but then what about state taxes? property taxes, tax tax tax. They pay out the ass.

"Deficits can be reduced by growing the economy.  Such projects put people to work, which puts money in their pocket that they spend on goods and services, which increases business for other companies, which then can hire more workers, which leads to more economic growth, which means a broader tax base to pay off the deficit.  Meanwhile, austerity measures tend to put people out of work, which means a smaller tax base, which makes it harder to pay off the deficit."

These are just words. How do you just "grow the economy"? What the fuck are you talking about?

Wouldn't lowering taxes for everyone promote economic growth? People have more money = more spending. The government doesn't need to increase taxes to pay off the deficit (if that's what you were implying), they need to cut wasteful spending and use that money to pay off the debt.

I don't see any point in your post but to make yourself seem smarter without actually saying anything.


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What is life? I'm tired of life...

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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14031789 - 02/26/11 06:06 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I thought you believed that we should stay out of foreign affairs, Pris. Now Obama is half-assing his job for letting the Egyptians stage their own revolution?

What do you guys criticizing Obama's moves in these revolts think he should have done?

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OfflineDr. P. Silocybin
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Dr. P. Silocybin]
    #14031798 - 02/26/11 06:07 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

no one understand the power of information like the CIA

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2007/01/72545

our president understands how to operate in the 21st century

like silversoul said he's a chess player

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Dr. P. Silocybin]
    #14031851 - 02/26/11 06:14 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Dr. P. Silocybin said:
no your right the carrier is just there for protection, its more of a statement than anything else.

what im saying is that Obama was instrumental in initiating the revolution, through online social netwroks ie. facebook



I wouldn't go that far.  I think his Cairo speech in 2009 sent a great signal to the Middle East which could be credited as contributing to these revolutions.  As far as the Facebook thing, you can't really credit Obama for people in independently organized through these social networks.  This was their revolution, not Obama's.  However, I do think Obama handled the situation perfectly.  He knew he couldn't just come out and throw a long-time ally under the bus as soon as there was trouble, but he also knew that he had to stand up for the people's right to peaceful protest.  So he chose his words carefully and made it clear that violence from the regime would be unacceptable.  He also sent a signal to the military by saying that the US would be "reviewing" its foreign aid to Egypt.  The message: if you fire on your own people, you'll have your aid stripped from you.  There was a lot of stuff behind the scenes that we'll probably never know about.  But when it comes down to it, I don't credit him for "initiating" the revolution.  He just handled it in a smart delicate manner that a hothead like McCain would've almost certainly fucked up.


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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Anthony917]
    #14031857 - 02/26/11 06:15 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Lowering taxes for people doesn't stimulate growth b/c those people use the money to cushion a fear-savings, or to pay off their debt so they don't lose their house/car/business. Nor do the rich use tend to use the money from tax breaks to start new businesses. They use it to invest in foreign countries. Lately there's been a big trend of hiring illegal workers for cheap, or outsourcing labor to save on costs, too. We're part of a global market now, traditional economics aren't working in favor of America's middle class. Classical economics doesn't work b/c it assumes the market will return to normal on it's own in the long run. What good is it if we're all dead before it turns around?

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OfflineDr. P. Silocybin
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Silversoul]
    #14031899 - 02/26/11 06:22 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

true but, I assume that the CIA was on the ground gathering intel and talking to leaders/organizers of the revolution.

Obama also must have been in contact with military leader, not through formal diplomatic channels of course, but we have a close connection to their military they can communicate discretely.

This was not Obama's revolution, all the credit needs to go to the people of Egypt. But I think that he was working (even before the demonstrations) to instigate change, and help the Egyptians in their fight for freedom.

and of course protecting the interests of the united states

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OfflineAnthony917
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: uber_aj]
    #14031904 - 02/26/11 06:23 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
I thought you believed that we should stay out of foreign affairs, Pris. Now Obama is half-assing his job for letting the Egyptians stage their own revolution?

What do you guys criticizing Obama's moves in these revolts think he should have done?



Quote:

uber_aj said:
Lowering taxes for people doesn't stimulate growth b/c those people use the money to cushion a fear-savings, or to pay off their debt so they don't lose their house/car/business. Nor do the rich use tend to use the money from tax breaks to start new businesses. They use it to invest in foreign countries. Lately there's been a big trend of hiring illegal workers for cheap, or outsourcing labor to save on costs, too. We're part of a global market now, traditional economics aren't working in favor of America's middle class. Classical economics doesn't work b/c it assumes the market will return to normal on it's own in the long run. What good is it if we're all dead before it turns around?




So we should in turn keep people above their heads in debt in favor of more government taxation and spending. That is retarded.
Rich people use their money to take business overseas because THERE'S TOO MUCH TAX ON BUSINESS IN THE UNITED STATES!!! Why would you start a business here, and get taxed out the butthole, when you could go overseas and do the same thing for significantly cheaper???
See the problem?

If I got to keep more of my money, I would spend it. Plain and simple. This is PROVEN and it's TRUTH.


--------------------
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What is life? I'm tired of life...

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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Anthony917]
    #14032111 - 02/26/11 07:08 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I don't regret voting for Obama. Much prefer him over McCain or Palin.

I can understand the disappointment of those who thought there would be this sudden revolution of ideals, etc, but you gotta understand politics is politics, and both sides are fucked up. Lesser of 2 evils FTW!


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 

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OfflineHakim0777
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Anthony917]
    #14032175 - 02/26/11 07:21 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)



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OfflineAnthony917
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Hakim0777]
    #14032185 - 02/26/11 07:24 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Hakim0777 said:
http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/




that website is full of "facts" that, some of which, actually did more harm to the country than good. The $1 trillion stimulus plan? What did that do?


--------------------
Prisoner#1 said: I got my ass kicked by a 9yo when I was 17
Trippin? Click Me




What is life? I'm tired of life...

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OfflineHakim0777
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Anthony917] * 1
    #14032249 - 02/26/11 07:34 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Anthony917 said:
Quote:

Hakim0777 said:
http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/




that website is full of "facts" that, some of which, actually did more harm to the country than good. The $1 trillion stimulus plan? What did that do?




I can not answer what its done so far truthfully but I can say with all my heart that it isnt an instant fix and even though its understandable, Im getting tired of people being annoyed cause our recession problem hasnt been solved in three years. Can we be realistic?


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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: uber_aj]
    #14032372 - 02/26/11 07:52 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
Lowering taxes for people doesn't stimulate growth b/c those people use the money to cushion a fear-savings, or to pay off their debt so they don't lose their house/car/business. Nor do the rich use tend to use the money from tax breaks to start new businesses. They use it to invest in foreign countries. Lately there's been a big trend of hiring illegal workers for cheap, or outsourcing labor to save on costs, too. We're part of a global market now, traditional economics aren't working in favor of America's middle class. Classical economics doesn't work b/c it assumes the market will return to normal on it's own in the long run. What good is it if we're all dead before it turns around?





This is so true.  If we don't start producing goods here soon then we're all fucked.  We did great in the 50s because we had more industry on our soil then.  I recently read an article that stated: The middle class economy has stagnated since 1988, when inflation is accounted for, meanwhile rich (top 10%) have an economy that has grown exponentially.  I believe that importing our industrial goods was a big part of this.

Unfortunately, if we want to change things, then we will have to settle for lower wage incomes in these areas in order to compete with foreigners.  This is a little off topic, but I liked the above response.

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Offlinesixxy
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #14041653 - 02/28/11 12:28 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:

I can understand the disappointment of those who thought there would be this sudden revolution of ideals, etc, but you gotta understand politics is politics, and both sides are fucked up. Lesser of 2 evils FTW!





oh, obama has done a fantastic job of eroding our worth as individuals, enslaving us to his redundantly failed ideology and ever growing ruling class and shitting all over the constitution. he is by far the worst piece of shit president this country has ever seen? Palin makes my fucking head hurt but there is now way in hell should could have been worse for my freedom and liberty than this cuntturd in the white house or the mindless ideologues who still suck his dick. Obama was by far the worst choice in that election if you believe in liberty, the constitution and not being enslaved to an ever growing government and a review of his history and his mentors is all you needed to know in order to understand that at the time of the election, how ever to not understand that today is an act of utter eager ignorance, confusion and/or stupidity.


--------------------
taste the effing rainbow

Edited by sixxy (02/28/11 12:33 PM)

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OfflineNordique
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: sixxy]
    #14041703 - 02/28/11 12:35 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

<===== canadian.


--------------------
It's a trip, it's got a funky beat, and I can BUG OUT to it.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Would you change your vote in the 2008 election if given the choice? [Re: Dr. P. Silocybin]
    #14041713 - 02/28/11 12:36 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Dr. P. Silocybin said:
no your right the carrier is just there for protection, its more of a statement than anything else.

what im saying is that Obama was instrumental in initiating the revolution, through online social netwroks ie. facebook





again, that's false

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