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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14026920 - 02/25/11 06:25 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

bigmike7104 said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Who cares if it applies to everyone or not? I'm far more concerned with myself than I am with you or anyone else, really.




because that's what this discussion is about? it's not about whether death anxiety is a real thing, well no shit it is. it's about whether it affects every single person and if all of humanity's problems are the result of trying to avoid it.




Oh, you're right. I forgot this thread was requesting someone to prove the cause of an emotional state outside of the visible physiological ties :lol:

OK, physiologically your fight or flight system is responsible for keeping you alive and will produce stress hormones, or cortisole, even when no real danger is present. Why is that? What could that mysterious black box of the brain be doing? I can't and don't care to prove what form those thoughts are taking for everyone, but if you can see what form those thoughts are taking in your own black box...  :shrug:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14026936 - 02/25/11 06:32 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I do disagree. But I'm not overwhelmed or surprised that you don't see it that way.




I'm just curious why you don't think there could be an exception to the rule, particularly in the case of suicides.  Self-destruction is potentially a great way to show one's freedom from death anxiety, like Heisman says.


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14026937 - 02/25/11 06:33 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

that just means it's something in your subconscious that you fear but your not aware of it. doesn't mean it's death though.


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Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: deCypher]
    #14026944 - 02/25/11 06:35 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

How does it prove freedom from death anxiety?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14026946 - 02/25/11 06:36 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Edited my post.^


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: deCypher]
    #14026972 - 02/25/11 06:41 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

IMO self-destruction in any form is very similar to suicide in that it often tries to find a way to numb the suffering brought about by this anxiety. And most often it backfires completely, creating greater anxiety as the threat of death creeps closer -- fewer funds, less stable living conditions, greater social isolation or at least less desirable company (in terms of survival)...

Who knows what happens in suicide cases AFTER, but before death has occured they most certainly are not looking for a worse scenario. Just like self-destructive drug habits aren't an attempt to create self-destruction, it just turns out that way. They are an attempt to escape suffering. And perhaps suicide succeeds at this goal. Perhaps it doesn't. But people have to convince themselves that it will, or else they wouldn't go through with it. And really, who can know that? It's a thought creation.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104] * 1
    #14026990 - 02/25/11 06:45 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

i requote myself from a few pages back and added some more quotes too. if these quotes aren't obvious this is pseudoscience, then i'm not sure why im even debating.

Quote:

bigmike7104 said:
like i said, i didn't say im not afraid of death just saying i don't want to live here forever.not saying the theory behind the book is not true, but just because someone says it is, doesn't make it so.

the author says stuff like

Quote:

portrays the schizophrenic as incapable of conforming to normal cultural standards and is thus incapable of death denial.





Quote:

Freud's Oedipus complex is reinterpreted to reflect the existential project of avoiding the implications of being a "body," and thus being mortal. The boy is attracted to his mother in an effort to become his own father, thereby attempting to transcend his mortality through an imagined self-sufficiency.



http://www.deathreference.com/A-Bi/Becker-Ernest.html

Quote:


Frankly I don't know any­thing more cogent that needs to be said about this syndrome: it is a failure in humanization, which means a failure to confidently deny man's real situation on this planet. Schizophrenia is the limiting test case for the theory of character and reality that we have been ex­pounding here: the failure to build dependable character defenses allows the true nature of reality to appear to man




not only to think where's the evidence, but those quotes kind of speak for themselves

He also says
Quote:

Killing is a symbolic solution of a biological limitation; it results from the fusion of the biological level(animal anxiety) with the symbolic one(death fear) in the human animal.




that to me doesn't seem a plausible reason to explain why people kill each other with current science

Quote:

Man has no innate instincts of sexuality and aggression.





definitely not true.

Quote:

"Today we generally see homosexuality as a broad problem of ineptness, vague identity, passivity, helplessness--all in all, an inability to take a powerful stance toward life."




except for the fact it can be explained by genetics.

Quote:


The lower animals are, of course, spared this painful contradiction, as they lack a symbolic identity and the self-consciousness that goes with it.




except for studies are showing apes, dolphins, and elephants are self-aware.

Quote:


Religions like Hinduism and Buddhism performed the ingenious trick of pretending not to want to be reborn, which is a sort of negative magic: claiming not to want what you really want most




i don't know a lot about Buddhism, but that's a bold assertion.

Quote:


In most societies, physiological functions such as excretion and sex have become shameful because they equate us with mortal animals and finite unstable physical matter




really? i thought it was just considered to be shameful by really religious people. and physiological functions, haha?

Quote:

Unlike any other animal, man comes to realize inevitability of his own death




except for elephants do and you can't be sure others don't either

Quote:

A person who does not adopt such a system commonly experiences social death — loss of meaning, feeling, and motivation, or aggression to make oneself meaningful at any cost (e.g. mass shootings).




yea im sure everyone who doesn't believe they will forever experiences those things.


Quote:


but before death has occured they most certainly are not looking for a worse scenario. Just like self-destructive drug habits aren't an attempt to create self-destruction,




yea obviously people who take drugs aren't usually looking to create self-destruction. they like getting high then it sometimes turn to self destruction through addiction. but to say people who commit suicide are not looking to die and comparing it to drug abuse is silly IMO.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (02/25/11 06:49 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14026994 - 02/25/11 06:46 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Your partial sentences taken out of context prove what exactly?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14027014 - 02/25/11 06:50 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

those are still claims he makes and it doesn't make the statements any less false.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14027024 - 02/25/11 06:53 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

:lol:

Have you ever read scientific literature? Of course not everything written is purely scientific, a lot of it is background and theoretical groundwork before anything else is presented. It's also common practice to project the work into the future to show how it could be of further use down the road.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14027043 - 02/25/11 06:58 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

yea i have, and scientific literature is science based on evidence. my point is the book is very outdated with views of modern science so his arguments for his theory doesn't hold up. his views in the book were even outdated when the book was written.

again he relies on a 19th century philosopher and religion author and the theories of frued. if that doesn't say enough i don't think anything will be for you.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14027060 - 02/25/11 07:01 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

That doesn't say anything to me. Physics has used newtonian thought for how long? Psychology still teaches Freud why? Philosophers still discuss Kierkegaard because he's out dated?

You're on pretty weak ground considering you haven't read the book.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14027075 - 02/25/11 07:05 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

because newton's theories have EVIDENCE and im sure will be used a long time to, clinical psychology uses psychoanalysis which freud developed but many of his theories aren't used or have evidence for it in modern psychology, philosophers discuss keiergaard but philosophy is not science.

and i won't read the book because of the above quotes i posted and who he relies on to advance the theory.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (02/25/11 07:08 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14027081 - 02/25/11 07:06 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Uh huh. Evidence... what's that? I'm sure you have a definition that hasn't been informed by philosophy, because that's not scientific.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14027130 - 02/25/11 07:17 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

scientific evidence is data from experiments that support a theory.

Quote:

I'm sure you have a definition that hasn't been informed by philosophy




so your saying philosophy is a science, because i thought philosophy was thought to be a subject concerned with areas that science can't prove or disprove.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14027159 - 02/25/11 07:23 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

philosophy is not a science,
but science is a philosophy

A philosophy of how to go about our exploration.
Philosophy sure can be useful when applied, huh?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14027166 - 02/25/11 07:24 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Kickle, take the case of a human being raised in a religion so that he believes without a doubt he will go to heaven after death.  He then commits suicide in order to do so.  You would still claim that he has death anxiety?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: deCypher]
    #14027173 - 02/25/11 07:26 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Totally. What's so great about heaven? What are we trying to get away from?


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14027188 - 02/25/11 07:30 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
philosophy is not a science,
but science is a philosophy

A philosophy of how to go about our exploration.
Philosophy sure can be useful when applied, huh?




sure, but science uses a type of philosophy that requires evidence. you can claim anything you want doesn't make it true. if you believe some of the shit becker says why not believe in god and anything the bible says. i mean we shouldn't need to have evidence for those things to believe them apparently.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14027191 - 02/25/11 07:31 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Totally. What's so great about heaven? What are we trying to get away from?




Why would he have death anxiety if he's got no reason to be afraid of death?  He wants to die!  Maybe he has suffering anxiety.  :rofl:


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