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InvisibleCups
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14025807 - 02/25/11 02:34 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:


who said i was never alone with myself and i was always doing something.
god forbid anyone mind their own business.




Ummm that was just a generalized statement not really directed at you.  Here's a youtube video though which you might like.

Nothing is Something Worth Doing


Quote:

heavily influenced by the views of cultural anthropologist Ernest Becker




It's like saying physics is heavily influenced by Einstein.  He was the first to really connect all the dots between the various sciences. 

Quote:

which reminds me, where has icelander been i would think he would want to defend his sacred book




:imspecial:

I envy you really Mike.  Maybe you should stop asking all these questions.  Maybe don't watch the documentary.  Love your country, marry a nice girl, have lots of babies, believe in god and pursue a meaningful career. 

Then later when someone asks you why you did all these things, just shrug your shoulders, smile...and say- "Because"

Cups


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What's up everybody?!

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Cups]
    #14025869 - 02/25/11 02:46 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

:nonono:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #14025875 - 02/25/11 02:47 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

to rhaz, good points. i don't know if we were immortal anxiety would still be useless though. we might not be as motivated to accomplish something, but i don't think we would still want to just sit around and do nothing either. also being social and surrounded by people is very important to our health. the part of the brain that governs social skills and behavior is not the same area that governs fear(though there is some overlap obviously). so you eliminate the part of the brain getting rid of fear and thus death anxiety we would still be motivated to be social and well-liked, i would think.

my last point on the subject, would about people who commit suicide. you would think if all of our behavior is based on avoiding death and it's the cause of all problems, wouldn't no matter how big problems get in your life the biggest one of all wouldn't be a solution and we would avoid death still at all costs.

and in evolutionary terms if death anxiety has been a constant problem for as long as humans were around wouldn't we develop a better defense mechanism against it?

Quote:


It's like saying physics is heavily influenced by Einstein.  He was the first to really connect all the dots between the various sciences.



 

except his theories have lots of evidence backing it up, where as becker's doesn't.

i'm not saying i know everything, just looking at it from a critical perspective, and i was just curious to hear icelanders thoughts on it cause he thinks highly of the book.

and sorry your not enjoying the discussion i am though.

Quote:


Love your country, marry a nice girl, have lots of babies, believe in god and pursue a meaningful career.




i love aspects of my country not sure this had to do with the discussion. yea i want kids im sure my sex drive has a part. not sure if i believe god, thanks for the suggestion though. yea i want a meaningful career, sorry i want to make money and do something i like.



--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (02/25/11 02:59 PM)

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Rahz]
    #14026134 - 02/25/11 03:50 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
:nonono:




It seems I let my own personal issues bleed into this a bit more than I should have.  For that you have my apologies BigMike.  :sorry:

I forget that coming to even the realization that death anxiety exists takes time and lots of it in most cases.  I didn't have that luxury which leaves me with a uniquely slanted perspective.

Even so, almost everything you have written shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. 

Sorry bud but it's the truth.  :shrug:

For example this line right here sums it up-
Quote:

i love aspects of my country not sure this had to do with the discussion




And no, I'm not going to explain it to you.  If you really want to know it's out there.

Cups


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What's up everybody?!

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Cups]
    #14026285 - 02/25/11 04:18 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

it's alright no offense taken. i admit i don't really know what i'm talking about, but you haven't provided any evidence for the theory. you just think it's true because it seems to make sense to you.

also what i said in that line, it doesn't mean i totally love everything about my country, just there are things i do like about it. all just guess you were trying to say i'm trying to not see anything negative about my country because i want to pretend everything's perfect because of death anxiety.

and i'm curious your thoughts on this
Quote:


would about people who commit suicide. you would think if all of our behavior is based on avoiding death and it's the cause of all problems, wouldn't no matter how big problems get in your life the biggest one of all wouldn't be a solution and we would avoid death still at all costs.




--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14026319 - 02/25/11 04:24 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

There's plenty of evidence if you're willing to look at it. But of course even if the specific places that death anxiety manifests are common and pointed to, the emotional experience is still very personal and private. There is no evidence for the emotional experience of death anxiety except to experience it for yourself through open investigation. Denial of Death is a good place to start with the open investigation. I don't think anyone who has read the book went into it accepting every word. I think those who have read the book from this forum went into it like they would any book, hoping to learn something but always questioning the validity.

What you see is the result -- the concept of death anxiety stuck.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14026361 - 02/25/11 04:35 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

I don't think anyone who has read the book went into it accepting every word




i wouldn't accept any word he says as fact seeing that he relies on a 19th century philosopher and religion author, and Freud, and it's quite outdated with modern science. so accepting that book is pretty much the same as accepting a philosophy book as truth instead of your belief.

Quote:

There is no evidence for the emotional experience of death anxiety except to experience it for yourself through open investigation.




for something to be evidence it has to be objectively studied, not what you personally think of it. 

again i'm not saying death anxiety isn't common and doesn't affect people  and for some so much to the point it completely takes over them. and kickle, what are your thoughts on what i wrote on suicide in my above post.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14026374 - 02/25/11 04:37 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Death anxiety is the driving force behind suicide. Suicide is just the last tactic we can utilize to try and hide from it. HAHA! The suffering won't find me "here"!




Wherever "here" is, we convince ourselves it is better than where we are.

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14026456 - 02/25/11 04:50 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Suicide is just the last tactic we can utilize to try and hide from it. HAHA! The suffering won't find me here!




still not making sense, doing the thing and facing it which you say were programmed to try to avoid and is so deeply ingrained in us so much yet we do it anyway. if that's true, then were not doing everything we can to avoid death so it's not the basis of all(or everyone's) behavior. otherwise it wouldn't even be considered an option as a solution.

Quote:

And suicide is as much an action as anything. It's still movement




but it's still movement toward death while other movement is toward things to do with life.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14026476 - 02/25/11 04:55 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

We're not realistically trying to avoid our inevitable death, no one can. But we are doing our damndest to avoid our anxiety about knowing this fact. And some people are darn successful in masking it with all sorts of methods, including suicide.

And all movement is towards death my friend. Unless you know of some way to make the clock run backwards :wow:

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14026519 - 02/25/11 05:04 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

We're not trying to avoid our inevitable death, no one can




obviously no one can, but doesn't the death anxiety theory poses by becker say that our ego is trying to avoid our death at all costs, and that's what all our behavior is based on and the cause of anxiety. also if were not trying to avoid our death, then isn't it possible to accept it and not feel anxiety.

Quote:

And all movement is towards death my friend. Unless you know of some way to make the clock run backwards :wow:




but there's a difference between actively going towards death and ending life earlier versus wanting to live.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14026568 - 02/25/11 05:14 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Sorry, we're not *realistically* trying to avoid our inevitable death because such a feat is impossible. We do try, and succeed, in avoiding our immediate death all the time. But we always have that knowledge of our inevitable doom. And we try to avoid this knowledge like the plague. We use all sorts of tricks, including the creation of a mythic afterlife for ourselves.

We invent situations that help us feel as though we will continue after we are gone. That is the ego's attempt to create a reality that overcomes it's inevitable doom. But this is all in Becker's book in much greater detail than I am going to continue to spit out as you work through the concept yourself. If you wanna read it, read it. If not, then don't.

I have nothing invested in it or you except common existence.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14026744 - 02/25/11 05:45 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

but not everyone avoids the knowledge like the plague. otherwise there would be no daredevils who get a thrill of just barely escaping death, and there would be no atheists. just because it applies to a lot of people doesn't give a reason to believe it applies to everyone.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14026778 - 02/25/11 05:52 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Whatever you say bro. Your counter isn't convincing to me at all though.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14026839 - 02/25/11 06:06 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

you haven't either you even said

Quote:

There is no evidence for the emotional experience of death anxiety except to experience it for yourself through open investigation.




just because it applies to you, me, and some other people how does it mean it applies to everyone. and of the people who do fear death, there's no evidence for everyone all of their behavior is motivated by it. and Becker's book doesn't provide scientific evidence.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14026851 - 02/25/11 06:08 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Who cares if it applies to everyone or not? I'm far more concerned with myself than I am with you or anyone else, really.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14026895 - 02/25/11 06:18 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
And some people are darn successful in masking it with all sorts of methods, including suicide.




:ilold: Everyone who commits suicide is just masking their death anxiety?  Seriously? 

Quote:

Kickle said:
What you see is the result -- the concept of death anxiety stuck.




I've read Denial of Death, for one, and don't think everyone has it.  Murky assertions that "but wait, even if you don't have a conscious fear of death then it's gotta exist in the subconscious!" sound more like unprovable pseudoscience than any kind of rational thinking to me, and the example of people willingly going into their own death like suicides seems to disprove the very notion IMO.  You may disagree of course, but look into Mitchell Heisman's suicide note if you haven't already... he discusses this concept quite nicely.  :satansmoking:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14026901 - 02/25/11 06:21 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Who cares if it applies to everyone or not? I'm far more concerned with myself than I am with you or anyone else, really.




because that's what this discussion is about? it's not about whether death anxiety is a real thing, well no shit it is. it's about whether it affects every single person and if all of humanity's problems are the result of trying to avoid it.

Quote:

sound more like unprovable pseudoscience than any kind of rational thinking to me, and the example of people willingly going into their own death like suicides seems to disprove the very notion IMO.  You may disagree of course




look at the quotes i got from the book on the last page, it IS a pseudoscience


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (02/25/11 06:28 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14026905 - 02/25/11 06:21 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I think it's probably true that the vast majority of the human race has it.  :shrug:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: deCypher]
    #14026909 - 02/25/11 06:22 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I do disagree. But I'm not overwhelmed or surprised that you don't see it that way.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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