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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: Phred]
    #14032493 - 02/26/11 08:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The western powers need to open talks to Iran and address some of the valid issues they always walk out on.


I think that if "the west" made some efforts to address the issues, Iran would do the same of our issues with Iran.


Western powers are posturing even more than Iran is, and it is because they WILL NOT address the issues of Israel/Palestine, and subversive Zionist control of US foreign and domestic policy.

Unless all parties can be open and honest why should Iran expect respect and authenticity?

Iran Is a very religious country, and they have stated again and again that nukes are "unholy" and against Islam.

They comply with the NPT and Only have energy grade uranium.

Under the Nuclear treaty Iran is supposed to get AID from countries such as the USA not sanctions.

Imagine a world where the USA and Iran could work hand in hand to improve green energy technology and benefit all of mankind.

That could potentially happen if everyone would try to erase all of this hate, bigotry, and subversion and replace it with good will towards man.


How can you all bee so eager to blow up your fellow man

Shame on you!


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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OfflineGrav
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: Phred]
    #14032904 - 02/26/11 09:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Now, why is it you call people whose opinion differs from yours "extremists"?




it's not a matter of opinion.  legal or not, the iraq invasion was immoral and led to hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths for the profits of some.  and yes anyone who supported it is an extremist that makes the worst suicide bomber pale in comparison if we are to hold consistent standards. dance around this all you want.

Quote:

And what made their argument so compelling they were able to "sell" (as you put it) the "fanciful notions" to just regular non-extremist folk?




people are stupid and gullible and still trust western media for accurate information.  doesn't matter what the argument is, all you have to hear is that muslim entity did X, and you'll believe it.

Quote:

Quote:

Zappa mentioned that many of these people who were polled believed that war was a good idea. That's true, but most of those people were deceived, either by WMD claims or bullshit rationalizations for the war, b/c its easy to unite against a common enemy!




Deceived? Deceived by whom? You seem not to want to claim the administration deceived anyone here (kudos to you for that, by the way)




they did, repeatedly.  how you remain in denial about this is beyond me. 
here's one small example: remember this?
 
and Rumsfeld on TV confirming that there were multiple cave networks like these?  Yea, that wasn't true.  It's called lying.  Not bad intelligence--Lying.

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: Adam3295]
    #14033026 - 02/26/11 09:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Adam3295 said:
Absolutely

It’s better to attack than to be attacked. Wackmadinejad is an Anti-American radical. Lessons learned from WWII. We should strike before we have another Pearl Harbor.





Well, off you go to the recruiter's office then, right?


--------------------
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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: TGRR]
    #14033036 - 02/26/11 09:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Frankly, anyone who believed the rationalizations for the war is too stupid to breathe unassisted.

The American people WANTED to be deceived.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: Shins]
    #14033082 - 02/26/11 09:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
You wonder why people cant take you seriously?




no, i wonder why people like yourself continue to jump at the propaganda coming out of the media, and attempt to rationalize another criminal preemptive invasion into a sovereign middle-eastern country.  you're delusional and deceived to even be considering this as a good idea.





Pardon, but weren't you allready challenged on this issue and completely unable to backup any of your defenses of Iran?  Why are you continuing this line when you've previously failed to back up those things you've said?  It is indeed hard to take someone seriously who routinely says things they are unable to justify in the least.

I note, further, that on the merits of your argument, well... there appears to be none.  You are beating the same old straw man you've failed to justify.  What grounds do you have to justify your representation of those who disagree with you as ignorant consumers of propoganda and biased news who's viewpoints are determined by this alleged unfair portrayel of Iran, Israel, et cet?  You've made this fallacious argument enough, I think you'd better establish its relevance before you continue this charade of arguing against positions you-yourself have manufactured.  Anyways you cut it, its an ad hominem at its core, but can you at least establish your representations of those who disagree with you as accurate?


Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

Phred said:
Now, why is it you call people whose opinion differs from yours "extremists"?




it's not a matter of opinion.  legal or not, the iraq invasion was immoral and led to hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths for the profits of some.  and yes anyone who supported it is an extremist that makes the worst suicide bomber pale in comparison if we are to hold consistent standards. dance around this all you want.




How so?  Someone who agrees, say, that Iraq violated security resolutions and will continue to do so, and thereby supports removal of the regime to improve security in the region, is neccesarily worse than someone who kills people as a terrorist act?  By what calculus? .

Quote:


Quote:

And what made their argument so compelling they were able to "sell" (as you put it) the "fanciful notions" to just regular non-extremist folk?




people are stupid and gullible and still trust western media for accurate information.  doesn't matter what the argument is, all you have to hear is that muslim entity did X, and you'll believe it.





What evidence do you have that this is so and that it is unwise to be a western media consumer.  I don't know anyone who would say they "trust" media of any stripe, though of course their is some implicit level of trust required to take anything from it at all.  Why is this unreasonable, and why do you list western media particularly? 

Is there any reason to suspect western media is inferior?  I would imagine given the charecteristically free press that exists in many western countries, especially the US, that their are better information sources readily available there than in the average eastern country.  What is your reasoning behind singling out western media?

Quote:

Shins said:
Western powers are posturing even more than Iran is




What do you mean here?  Iran, for its part, has always supported radical causes and a beligerant foreign policy- going so far as to support the elimination of soveirgn states, calling for the death of foreign nationals, and actively suppresses those with opposing views.  What basis do you have to conclude they "posture less" than "western powers"?

Quote:


, and it is because they WILL NOT address the issues of Israel/Palestine, and subversive Zionist control of US foreign and domestic policy.





How do you figure this?  Seems this topic is constantly addressed, at every turn.  How do you argue that this alleged failure to address this topic causes what you say?

What exactly is this "subversive Zionist control of US... policy"?  What are you referring to here and what do you have to back it up?  These kinda claims have been made by people a bunch of times, but I've never heard anyone back them up other than appealing to some race-based argument or other nonsense.  What do you cite as your proof of this?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: Adam3295]
    #14033369 - 02/26/11 10:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah let's cut off the Japs oil supplies again.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGrav
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: johnm214]
    #14035639 - 02/27/11 12:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pardon, but weren't you allready challenged on this issue and completely unable to backup any of your defenses of Iran?  Why are you continuing this line when you've previously failed to back up those things you've said?  It is indeed hard to take someone seriously who routinely says things they are unable to justify in the least.




i'm not defending Iran.  i'm saying we are being misled about it being important to intervene there.

Quote:


How so?  Someone who agrees, say, that Iraq violated security resolutions and will continue to do so, and thereby supports removal of the regime to improve security in the region, is neccesarily worse than someone who kills people as a terrorist act?  By what calculus? .




having meetings and votes and calling it 'improving security in the region' and telling yourself that it is okay because it is 'legal' and 'congress approved', doesn't change the fact that it is direct deliberate causation of the deaths and maiming of many many innocent people. invading and killing the people over there was just wrong.

Quote:

What evidence do you have that this is so and that it is unwise to be a western media consumer.




here is your evidence.  please don't try and tell me this was an isolated event.  if they were doing it then,  they are doing it now and it is much more sophisticated. 

CNN fake newscast from the Gulf War


they are liars selling whatever the military industrial complex requires in terms of popular support.  it is state-run propaganda.

Quote:

I don't know anyone who would say they "trust" media of any stripe, though of course their is some implicit level of trust required to take anything from it at all.




ah and therein lies the problem.

Quote:

Why is this unreasonable




guess it is no more unreasonable than leaving a kleptomaniac alone in your house for a few hours.

Quote:

Is there any reason to suspect western media is inferior?  I would imagine given the charecteristically free press that exists in many western countries, especially the US, that their are better information sources readily available there than in the average eastern country.  What is your reasoning behind singling out western media?




i single western media out because it masquerades itself as investigative journalism, and i see many people falling for it.

Edited by Grav (02/27/11 02:05 PM)

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: Grav]
    #14038182 - 02/27/11 08:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

And yet you fail to address the iranian constitution and their obvious violence towards protestors?

Hundres have been killed over the years in protests.

What ye say of that?


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14043452 - 02/28/11 04:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
And yet you fail to address the iranian constitution and their obvious violence towards protestors?

Hundres have been killed over the years in protests.

What ye say of that?




Sounds like their problem.

It's time we stopped acting like we are the only people capable of handling things.  Let them handle their own issues.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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Invisiblephoxyilluminata
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: TGRR]
    #14043502 - 02/28/11 05:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Iran? Who cares about Iran? Better yet, why SHOULD anyone care about Iran? And before you make any argument involving any sort of moral claim (i.e. "it's the right thing to do because blah blah blah"), I call preemptive horse shit. If that is the case, we should have invaded a laundry list of other countries by now, because know what? There are a shitload of countries that do worse on a more regular basis. There is no reason to start yet another pointless war.

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
    #14043585 - 02/28/11 05:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You should care about Iran because Zionist Israel does.

Same old story.


--------------------
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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
    #14043647 - 02/28/11 05:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

phoxyilluminata said:
Iran? Who cares about Iran? Better yet, why SHOULD anyone care about Iran? And before you make any argument involving any sort of moral claim (i.e. "it's the right thing to do because blah blah blah"), I call preemptive horse shit. If that is the case, we should have invaded a laundry list of other countries by now, because know what? There are a shitload of countries that do worse on a more regular basis. There is no reason to start yet another pointless war.




Iranians can be seen, as supported by their leaders, chanting death to america and israel.

It has been reported that Iran might be funding weapons and monetary instruments towards terrorists operations against coalition forces.

They also seem reluctant to allow the IAEA into all aspects of their nucelar program.

Also, the Iranian president is a hypocrit and a liar.

He says that people should rebel against their governments, Ie. Lybia and Egypt and that their governments should not be violent towards them if peaceful.

Yet clearly they are violent towards peaceful protestors.

I don't want hypocrits that support attitudes that pro-death to israel and USA who believes in the coming of the 12th imam(in a time of war and bloodshed) to have the potential of accessing nuclear energy.

Sorry, but no on person here can say for certain what irans nucelar program is for.

That is my best guesse and what makes me feel safest.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: TGRR]
    #14043656 - 02/28/11 05:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
And yet you fail to address the iranian constitution and their obvious violence towards protestors?

Hundres have been killed over the years in protests.

What ye say of that?




Sounds like their problem.

It's time we stopped acting like we are the only people capable of handling things.  Let them handle their own issues.





Read above, response to you is the same as my last post.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Invisiblephoxyilluminata
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14043814 - 02/28/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:

Iranians can be seen, as supported by their leaders, chanting death to america and israel.




Okay. And Americans can be seen chanting, as lead by their leaders "Bomb, bomb, bomb. Bomb, bomb, Iran."
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
It has been reported that Iran might be funding weapons and monetary instruments towards terrorists operations against coalition forces.




America funds terrorists all the time.
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
They also seem reluctant to allow the IAEA into all aspects of their nucelar program.




Bah. If they are stupid enough to try to use nukes, the world is going down anyway. Fuck it.
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Also, the Iranian president is a hypocrit and a liar.




So are the vast majority of U.S. presidents.
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
He says that people should rebel against their governments, Ie. Lybia and Egypt and that their governments should not be violent towards them if peaceful.

Yet clearly they are violent towards peaceful protestors.




Okay. So he's a hypocrite. Can we say torture in the U.S.?
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
I don't want hypocrits that support attitudes that pro-death to israel and USA who believes in the coming of the 12th imam(in a time of war and bloodshed) to have the potential of accessing nuclear energy.




And I don't give a flying fuck.
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Sorry, but no on person here can say for certain what irans nucelar program is for.

That is my best guesse and what makes me feel safest.



Who cares? If they want it for peaceful purposes, fine. If they want it for nukes, all the better. Bring on the apocalypse.

In short, my brother and cousins not going to a third fucking country to get shot at is more important to me than bullshit rhetoric, pointless speculation, and things that have been going on unaddressed for years.

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14043915 - 02/28/11 05:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:

Also, the Iranian president is a hypocrit and a liar.





Unlike, say, Obama or Bush.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: TGRR]
    #14044090 - 02/28/11 06:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:


Sounds like their problem.

It's time we stopped acting like we are the only people capable of handling things.




Who you calling we, Kemosabe?  You neither pay nor participate.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: TGRR] * 1
    #14044105 - 02/28/11 06:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:

Also, the Iranian president is a hypocrit and a liar.





Unlike, say, Obama or Bush.





I am not morally judging him.

I am speaking about trusting him on his nuclear intentions.

I could care less who is a hypcrit or not, just don't affect my experience negatively and you can be whatever the fuck you want.

And my other points?


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14044324 - 02/28/11 06:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

TGRR said:


Sounds like their problem.

It's time we stopped acting like we are the only people capable of handling things.




Who you calling we, Kemosabe?  You neither pay nor participate.




What the fuck are you talking about?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Invisiblephoxyilluminata
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Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14044347 - 02/28/11 06:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
And my other points?



And my points?

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Potential War with IRAN - YAY or NAY? [Re: phoxyilluminata]
    #14044379 - 02/28/11 06:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
And my other points?



And my points?




They don't need to.  Zappa, you see, is psychic, and knows everything about everyone.

There's no debate here, Phox.  Just ad hominem crap.  What do you expect from extremists?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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