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Icelander
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youth power
#14024064 - 02/25/11 05:43 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Each generations youth has to break away from their parents and the previous generation. The have to gain POWER and become the force for the continuation of the species. So they rebel against the powers that be. Now the young think that this process is about change and changing the world to fix all the wrongs and make it a utopia of sorts. But really history shows that it is just the transfer of power from one generation to another and the status quo remains in place.
Discuss.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
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Quote:
Icelander said: Now the young think that this process is about change and changing the world to fix all the wrongs and make it a utopia of sorts. But really history shows that it is just the transfer of power from one generation to another and the status quo remains in place.
I would say that each generation changes things at least a little bit, and that the status quo doesn't completely remain in place; for the most part, though, it does remain in place.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
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Re: youth power [Re: Poid] 1
#14024747 - 02/25/11 10:28 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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These minor changes do happen but don't really change the base.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Why do people think generations come in quanta? They don't.
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Icelander
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I'm not sure what you mean?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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floydisgod
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It feels good to rebel, and apparently its in our nature. So why not do it? Thats the real question
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Icelander
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Right, it's like stretching your muscles and flexing them. You need to expend energy because youth has an excess of it. You will need it to meet your survival needs and advance within the pack and hopefully come out on or near the top. It's perfectly natural.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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I've been in some demonstrations and around some that turned violent. It's exciting and you can easily get caught up in it. Peaceful protests can easily turn violent. It's about exercising power and gaining power.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Quote:
Icelander said: I'm not sure what you mean?
That there are discrete separations in humanity which can be labeled as different generations. There aren't. It's a lazy way of thinking about things and imposing divisions that don't really exist.
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Icelander
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Well I'm a lazy guy. You know that.
I made this post in response to others here stating that a new age of peace and fairness is coming as all the current so called corrupt leaders around the will fall and are replaced by new and enlightened leaders. I assume that includes our country also. But imo that's a pipe dream. "here comes the new boss, same as the old boss"
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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I wasn't specifically speaking to you. In fact, I wasn't speaking to you at all but, rather, to the youngsters who think there is a specific delineated separation of generations. For instance a current thread in this forum speaks about "the older generation" admitting error regarding religion. What "older generation"? It makes no sense. Tighten up your thoughts, children. There are no generations. Hell, there is no society.
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Icelander
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Well you know how vain I am. If you post a response to me I'll think it's about me. 
Tight thinking rarely happens in youth. I can only feel ment about my own sloppy thought processes and the fact that I do very well in debate here does not reflect well on the youth of today.
Of course I admit I cheat.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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AlphaFalfa
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm not sure what you mean?
That there are discrete separations in humanity which can be labeled as different generations. There aren't. It's a lazy way of thinking about things and imposing divisions that don't really exist.
I have to disagree. In 'reality' nothing really exists. Divisions are just a concept in the mind, however, if they have use and allow us to navigate our lives into pleasure/happiness, then they should be used.
For example, if I said that we are all different and that not all of us are equals in the grand scheme of things, I would be wrong because there isn't a grand scheme and were are products of our environment.
However, if i said I want to go to a quite place to grab a beer and have a conversation with someone about various topics of interests, you wouldn't tell me to go to a club where youth go to, would you?
So in both cases it is useful and useless to think of the division. This is because division is a concept aimed at navigating the world around us.
In the sense that icelander is speaking about how doing what youth do in protests as a waste of time, I agree. But protests in general are fun a shit nonetheless.
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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AlphaFalfa
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I wasn't specifically speaking to you. In fact, I wasn't speaking to you at all but, rather, to the youngsters who think there is a specific delineated separation of generations. For instance a current thread in this forum speaks about "the older generation" admitting error regarding religion. What "older generation"? It makes no sense. Tighten up your thoughts, children. There are no generations. Hell, there is no society.

Children to me, sounds like reference to a group, a division.

I love oxymorons!
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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floydisgod
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The key to youth revolt lies in what its called Youth- young inexperienced people, who think they can make a difference in the world. Unfortunately i fall in this categorry, but as my mind grows older i'm starting to realize that i really don't and can't make a significant difference. I'm caught in the same vicious cycle that my hippie father got caught in.
Revolt- an act of tearing down an old society/societal setting in hopes of creating a better or more utopian society. It's been tried before and i can guarantee it'll be tried again, but even if it succeeds eventually we'll grow tired of it. And thus the circle never ends.
Theres a balance between revolting, and succumming (sp?) to the man. There lies what we want... (imo)
Keep your heart young and let your mind grow
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Icelander
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We need a doorsisgod.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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AlphaFalfa
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Quote:
Icelander said: We need a doorsisgod.

what?
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Icelander
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Inside joke.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I wasn't specifically speaking to you. In fact, I wasn't speaking to you at all but, rather, to the youngsters who think there is a specific delineated separation of generations. For instance a current thread in this forum speaks about "the older generation" admitting error regarding religion. What "older generation"? It makes no sense. Tighten up your thoughts, children. There are no generations. Hell, there is no society.

Children to me, sounds like reference to a group, a division.

I love oxymorons!
 Everybody at some point in their lives is a child. That is a reasonable division. Not everybody is part of the "baby boomer generation" or "Gen X" or "Gen Y" or any other false division without boundaries.
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giza


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Changes in morals, IMO.
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deCypher



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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm not sure what you mean?
That there are discrete separations in humanity which can be labeled as different generations. There aren't. It's a lazy way of thinking about things and imposing divisions that don't really exist.
You don't believe in any sort of general change in attitude as we look back through the generations? What about sexual promiscuity and selfish materialism?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icelander
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Re: youth power [Re: deCypher]
#14027281 - 02/25/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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My question would be are we really changing or throwing up a facade to make us feel better about our true nature.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher



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What do you see our "true" human nature as?
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Icelander
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Re: youth power [Re: deCypher] 1
#14027302 - 02/25/11 07:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Same as most all animals.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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giza


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sleep->eat->poop taking and giving back
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Icelander
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Re: youth power [Re: giza]
#14027602 - 02/25/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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survival and moving as high in pack hierarchy as possible. This operates at all levels of social intercourse. It's a power struggle, more benign in the less violent but still operating. Human politics and business is a lot like the game of Monopoly. You try to win and come out on top. You make deals and short term alliances but in the end mostly it's everyone for themselves.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mushiepussy

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Interesting thoughts OP My ownly disagreement is that the status qou would change a little from generation. Cultural and technological changes can heavily influence society over time.
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Icelander
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A little change has already been acknowledged. Emotionally humans remain the same throughout known history.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Changes to our animal nature can only be imposed by technology. IMO we are in the process of being changed very rapidly by the technologies we have loosed into the world, so the "status quo" as we know it is in a constant state of flux. I will agree that so-called "youth revolutions" do not have a big impact on it. They simply demonstrate that generations sometimes develop their self-awareness in ways that are unpalatable to past generations.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Icelander
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Please describe a change in our animal nature that has been caused by technology?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: youth power [Re: deCypher]
#14030180 - 02/26/11 12:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm not sure what you mean?
That there are discrete separations in humanity which can be labeled as different generations. There aren't. It's a lazy way of thinking about things and imposing divisions that don't really exist.
You don't believe in any sort of general change in attitude as we look back through the generations? What about sexual promiscuity and selfish materialism?
I see it as a gradual continuous change and not as a series of spurts. Hence my use of the word quanta. Where does one generation end and another begin? It is a totally random imposition of structure on that which has none. The water is liquid or gaseous. It is not frozen into cubes. Capisce?
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Poid
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I wasn't specifically speaking to you. In fact, I wasn't speaking to you at all but, rather, to the youngsters who think there is a specific delineated separation of generations.
Lots of old people think that there is a specific delineated separation of generations, too, it's not just youngsters; I see it as kind of a figure of speech when people mention "the baby boomer generation", or "generation x", I never thought that people actually believed that generations are, as you put it, quantized when they use those terms.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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zappaisgod
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Re: youth power [Re: Poid]
#14030712 - 02/26/11 02:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I wasn't specifically speaking to you. In fact, I wasn't speaking to you at all but, rather, to the youngsters who think there is a specific delineated separation of generations.
Lots of old people think that there is a specific delineated separation of generations, too, it's not just youngsters; I see it as kind of a figure of speech when people mention "the baby boomer generation", or "generation x", I never thought that people actually believed that generations are, as you put it, quantized when they use those terms. 
You never thought they actually believed that in spite of their repeated citation of it? And stupidity, though more highly concentrated in the young, is not exclusive to the young.
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Icelander
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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auxiliary
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Why would change or rebellion be apparent? Because of the first generation's attempt to control.
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Icelander
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perfectly natural
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Quote:
Icelander said: Please describe a change in our animal nature that has been caused by technology?
Quote:
Icelander said: [animal nature is] survival and moving as high in pack hierarchy as possible. This operates at all levels of social intercourse. It's a power struggle, more benign in the less violent but still operating. Human politics and business is a lot like the game of Monopoly. You try to win and come out on top. You make deals and short term alliances but in the end mostly it's everyone for themselves.
I suppose this is true, but IMO the "status quo" is not defined by our animal nature; it's defined by the realities of the present day, and there are very real seismic shifts occurring in our shared culture following the relatively recent explosion of science and technology. We take for granted modes and media of communication that our parents never heard of at our age. This type of generational gap has become downright routine for us over the past few generations, but it has not always been thus. It's a new thing for us as a species, and for any species of animal on Earth, that we know of.
Moreover, it's easy (or at least, I think it's easy, but I do have some wacky ideas) to imagine that at some point in the not too distant future, a sentient A.I. or similar such nonsense will enslave the human race, in which case our animal nature will eventually become vestigial or recessive - computers are not programmed to look out for themselves or to climb to the top of social hierarchies.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (02/26/11 09:50 PM)
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Icelander
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I suppose this is true, but IMO the "status quo" is not defined by our animal nature;
I really don't know how you can say that. Take a look at business including organized crime. Take a look at politics in govt and every sector of society. They don't call it "dog eat dog" for nothing.
We are run by the same emotional states as our primitive ancestors. Is it just to me that this is beyond obvious?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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I just take it for granted. 
I mean, obviously we weren't be sitting here talking about the status quo if it weren't for our particular expression of our animal nature, so I don't see the point in referencing animal nature when discussing the status quo.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Icelander
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Yeah I can see you don't.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Well hey, be sure to let me know what it's like to discuss the status quo without your animal nature.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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huxmush
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Quote:
Icelander said: Each generations youth has to break away from their parents and the previous generation. The have to gain POWER and become the force for the continuation of the species. So they rebel against the powers that be. Now the young think that this process is about change and changing the world to fix all the wrongs and make it a utopia of sorts. But really history shows that it is just the transfer of power from one generation to another and the status quo remains in place.
Discuss.
In Genesis's Land Of Confusion Phil Collins sang that his generation would put it right, and now he's worried that the only thing he'll be remembered for is the 10 note drum solo in Something in the air.
I have no answers, I am finding that the questions becomes more intriguing/difficult though. Is this is place worth dying for?
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Icelander
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Re: youth power [Re: huxmush]
#14040502 - 02/28/11 06:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I was just thinking about that song a few days ago.
Is anything worth living for? Let's say you had to do it for eternity.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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