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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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is compassion natural?
    #14023415 - 02/25/11 12:12 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Me and a buddy were talking about this.

i say it is a learnt response.

Children clearly do not exhibit compassion.

i also think it has to do with fear of god, most the time.

Thoughts appreciated.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14023462 - 02/25/11 12:21 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Studies have shown that babies are naturally altruistic, actually.

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/3-3-2006-90273.asp


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: deCypher]
    #14023502 - 02/25/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

hmmm. interesting.

However, is that a baby actually making feeling the need to help or to mimic?

Clearly, kids mimic well into their lives as adults.

Many adults live mimicing their idols.

i don't see a correlation that is very strong and would probally say that they are simply mimicing the person 'struggling'.

Also if babies are naturally altruistic, why do children in general show little compassion?


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14023523 - 02/25/11 12:36 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Also, what if the toddler is trying to watch what the person is doing with the clothespin and hence the reason to give it back to him once he dropped it.

The toddler realizes that the adult is more entertaining when he is doing something with the clothes pin, rather than struggling.

i don't see a strong correlation.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14023615 - 02/25/11 01:04 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Also if babies are naturally altruistic, why do children in general show little compassion?




Are you assuming that children in general show little compassion based on personal experiences, or what?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: deCypher]
    #14023645 - 02/25/11 01:11 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The developement of the solar plexus occurs during puberty.

This is the place that I have supposed to be the root to our 6th sense of feelings.

They don't have the tools necessary to feel compasion in a general sense.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14023881 - 02/25/11 03:02 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Compassion just depends on how sensitive you are

Is being sensitive natural?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14024055 - 02/25/11 05:35 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Me and a buddy were talking about this.

i say it is a learnt response.

Children clearly do not exhibit compassion.

i also think it has to do with fear of god, most the time.

Thoughts appreciated.





I think it's a learned response.  It's based in empathy imo.

Affection on the other hand is something we are born with as a survival trait.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Registered: 06/16/08
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: deCypher]
    #14025233 - 02/25/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Also if babies are naturally altruistic, why do children in general show little compassion?




Are you assuming that children in general show little compassion based on personal experiences, or what?




I retract that statment it doesn't make sense. I am saying that the study could misinterpret the intentions of the toddlers and that there is other possible mechanisms that could be behind the phenomena of the children handing the objects back to the adult.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: Icelander]
    #14025243 - 02/25/11 12:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Me and a buddy were talking about this.

i say it is a learnt response.

Children clearly do not exhibit compassion.

i also think it has to do with fear of god, most the time.

Thoughts appreciated.





I think it's a learned response.  It's based in empathy imo.

Affection on the other hand is something we are born with as a survival trait.





I agree with affection being a naturalized nessecity.

And that compassion is a learnt response. However, I might not have made clear enough to the bloggers that compassion to me would mean witnessing the suffering of a random stranger which has no direct impact on your life, which makes you feel the need to help him/her.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14025546 - 02/25/11 01:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Also if babies are naturally altruistic, why do children in general show little compassion?




Are you assuming that children in general show little compassion based on personal experiences, or what?




I retract that statment it doesn't make sense. I am saying that the study could misinterpret the intentions of the toddlers and that there is other possible mechanisms that could be behind the phenomena of the children handing the objects back to the adult.




Sure, but what makes you reject the explanation of altruism in favor of these alternate mechanisms?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: deCypher]
    #14025607 - 02/25/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Also, what if the toddler is trying to watch what the person is doing with the clothespin and hence the reason to give it back to him once he dropped it.

The toddler realizes that the adult is more entertaining when he is doing something with the clothes pin, rather than struggling.

i don't see a strong correlation.




The fact that I don't see a strong correlation yet and that the actions of the toddlers in that situation could equally be what I have bolded above.

Studies like these that attempt to interpret the intentions of children can easily be refuted because we can't get into the minds of the children and see their thought processes.

Sure the guy was struggling in our eyes, but was it like that in the childs eye? What if the child was merly trying to observe what the guy was doing with the objects and decided it was more fun to help the person retrieve the objects, so that they can keep observing.

I have encountered this plenty of times with children. They many times hand me a ball, to see what I can do with it. I remember being with my little cousins and they would always give me the soccer ball after I did a few tricks and encouraged me to keep doing the tricks, then they proceeded to mimic how I was doing the tricks.

My point is that the study interprets the actions of the children and project and their causes, however, the very same actions can have different interpretations as to their causation.

For example, a friend may call you up and pretend to be having a great time talking to you. They just so happen to mention that they are going to the grocery store and you know that they don't have a car and must take transit. They ask you to meet them at the grocery store; do you interpret their intentions as attempting to see if you will offer them a ride? OR are they genuinly interested in spending an afternoon with you?

Its all interpretation...the same actions can in fact arise from different intentions and this in my POV what is happening with the study, they are misinterpreting the intentions of the child


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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: deCypher]
    #14025624 - 02/25/11 01:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

how can an emotion not be natural? also its well know the chemical oxytocin which is naturally produced in your brain increases feelings of love, trust, and compassion.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14026323 - 02/25/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Me and a buddy were talking about this.

i say it is a learnt response.

Children clearly do not exhibit compassion.

i also think it has to do with fear of god, most the time.

Thoughts appreciated.




Children, like one's dog, can be sympathetic, and try to cheer up another child or an adult when crying and sadness is perceived. But Compassion really requires both ego strength as well as the ability to transcend the needs of one's ego. Children have undeveloped egos, very embodied egos, and therefore children are characterized by egocentricity up to and including adolescence, which extends to age 25. Until one's ego is strong enough to be transcended, and another person's perspective assumed, even empathy is not possible. Kohlberg's moral development as a correlate of Piaget's intellectual developmental theories illustrate this best. Compassion is kindness, but unlike Webster's definition, it is not synonymous with pity. Buddhism speaks of the unity of Compassion and Wisdom, Karuna and Prajna, illustrated in Tibetan Yab-Yum icons. There is insight and detachment in Compassion. Like the Greek Agape, it is disinterested love.

Whether the maternal instinct in mammals is an aspect of Compassion or not is an interesting question. When a leopard kills an adult baboon, then discovers it's orphaned baby, but chooses to nurse the baboon baby instead of killing it too, what is going on? Is this a generalized instinctual behavior, or is it Compassion? When a human child fell into a gorilla's enclosure, and the gorilla picked up, and cradled the child until keepers could receive the child from the gorilla, was that Compassion or instinct? What about the rhinocerus who nudged and breathed on the near-drowned antelope until the animal revived, how about that inter-species behavior? That one didn't have a baby involved.

I have made a choice to see Compassion as a transcendental motive, which perhaps operates through sub-human mammalian species on occasion.


--------------------
Ξ³Ξ½αΏΆΞΈΞΉ ΟƒΞ±α½Ο„ΟŒΞ½ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/25/11 04:40 PM)


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14026698 - 02/25/11 05:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Me and a buddy were talking about this.

i say it is a learnt response.

Children clearly do not exhibit compassion.

i also think it has to do with fear of god, most the time.

Thoughts appreciated.




Children, like one's dog, can be sympathetic, and try to cheer up another child or an adult when crying and sadness is perceived. But Compassion really requires both ego strength as well as the ability to transcend the needs of one's ego. Children have undeveloped egos, very embodied egos, and therefore children are characterized by egocentricity up to and including adolescence, which extends to age 25. Until one's ego is strong enough to be transcended, and another person's perspective assumed, even empathy is not possible. Kohlberg's moral development as a correlate of Piaget's intellectual developmental theories illustrate this best. Compassion is kindness, but unlike Webster's definition, it is not synonymous with pity. Buddhism speaks of the unity of Compassion and Wisdom, Karuna and Prajna, illustrated in Tibetan Yab-Yum icons. There is insight and detachment in Compassion. Like the Greek Agape, it is disinterested love.

Whether the maternal instinct in mammals is an aspect of Compassion or not is an interesting question. When a leopard kills an adult baboon, then discovers it's orphaned baby, but chooses to nurse the baboon baby instead of killing it too, what is going on? Is this a generalized instinctual behavior, or is it Compassion? When a human child fell into a gorilla's enclosure, and the gorilla picked up, and cradled the child until keepers could receive the child from the gorilla, was that Compassion or instinct? What about the rhinocerus who nudged and breathed on the near-drowned antelope until the animal revived, how about that inter-species behavior? That one didn't have a baby involved.

I have made a choice to see Compassion as a transcendental motive, which perhaps operates through sub-human mammalian species on occasion.





:thumbup:

I was more reffering to the type of compassion that one gets while watching an info session on African poverty, not so much the passion that one might get in the presence of another persons suffering.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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Offlinesixxy
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: deCypher]
    #14029853 - 02/26/11 11:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

it is not taught, a healthy human baby is born with it it is actually untaught,  removed by different things like religion and other social and enviornmental elements.

it is actually logical since it would be necessary for the survival of the species and easily observed.


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taste the effing rainbow


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: sixxy]
    #14030441 - 02/26/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

But apes regularly perform anti-survival of the species behaviour.

Take gorrilla's for example. Male gorrillas will not only kill another baby gorilla, but eat it as well.

I cant say that survivalist interpretations of human social interactions surrounding this topic hold any sway.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14030454 - 02/26/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's not anti survival. He's attempting to bring his superior genes into play. He needs the females to be in heat for this and not breast feeding infants.

Many animals do this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinesixxy
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: Icelander]
    #14030604 - 02/26/11 01:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the hierarchy of the gorilla communities are also learned behaviors.


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14030624 - 02/26/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
But apes regularly perform anti-survival of the species behaviour.

Take gorrilla's for example. Male gorrillas will not only kill another baby gorilla, but eat it as well.

I cant say that survivalist interpretations of human social interactions surrounding this topic hold any sway.




in my anthropology class my teaching was talking about how some male chimpanzees will take care of a baby even if it's not theirs. also i think gorillas will only eat the babies of rival groups.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14030654 - 02/26/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Me and a buddy were talking about this.

i say it is a learnt response.

Children clearly do not exhibit compassion.

i also think it has to do with fear of god, most the time.

Thoughts appreciated.




If babies came out with adult intelligence I have a feeling they would have compassion. The understanding of cause and effect being the reason for it. We all naturally are wanting and I think we all are short sighted naturally. I think it's all about doing onto others as you would have them do onto you. Understanding of consequence.


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:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: Seanfu]
    #14031053 - 02/26/11 03:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Me and a buddy were talking about this.

i say it is a learnt response.

Children clearly do not exhibit compassion.

i also think it has to do with fear of god, most the time.

Thoughts appreciated.




If babies came out with adult intelligence I have a feeling they would have compassion. The understanding of cause and effect being the reason for it.


Why would the understanding of cause & effect necessarily cause one to have compassion?


Quote:

Seanfu said:
We all naturally are wanting and I think we all are short sighted naturally.


Naturally wanting of what? What does being naturally wanting and short-sighted have to do with how the understanding of cause & effect causes one to have compassion?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: Poid]
    #14031247 - 02/26/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why would the understanding of cause & effect necessarily cause one to have compassion?

Because you understand that your actions affect others, whereas before people understand that they are merciless bastards.

Naturally wanting of what? What does being naturally wanting and short-sighted have to do with how the understanding of cause & effect causes one to have compassion?

Just a case that children will exhibit little or no compassion because they have less understanding. Not because of moral training or lack of.

When I mentioned wanting, I mean we all want excess of everything really. So one would be greedy and that would affect compassion.

I am very high.


--------------------
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:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: Seanfu]
    #14031481 - 02/26/11 05:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Why would the understanding of cause & effect necessarily cause one to have compassion?

Because you understand that your actions affect others...


So one cannot lack compassion while understanding how their actions effect others?


Quote:

Seanfu said:
...whereas before people understand that they are merciless bastards.


Before what?


Quote:

Seanfu said:
When I mentioned wanting, I mean we all want excess of everything really. So one would be greedy and that would affect compassion.


We don't want excess of everything, especially suffering; sure, greed effects compassion, what's your point? :undecided:


Quote:

Seanfu said:
I am very high.


I will be very soon. :vaped:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14034490 - 02/27/11 05:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have seen children show empathy and compassion, but they are lesslikely to do so if heavily indulged in sugar, and diversions.
suffering is common between all creatures, and children know this as well as dogs.
compassion is how we nurture ourselves through our own suffering and it is what we can present to others as well.
children do this naturally.
but nature responds to conditions, and indulgence and diversion serve to separate the connection to the core.
that said, some candy and entertainment is a must. how much depends on wisdom and compassion, and wisdom comes with maturity.

wisdom is much more about how much candy to take or give than anything else.


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Offlinesixxy
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14057652 - 03/02/11 11:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

there is actually a chemical given off (oxytocin?) by mothers (whom arent damaged beyond the ability to produce it) which is called "the bonding hormone" the human machine releases it naturally, it isnt a taught behavior. Nurturing releases reward like hormones that give the feeling of euphoric like and contentful like feelings.

but again, we dont even have to go that far, knowing that compassion is instinct and natural (until removed by social or enviornement elements, or lack of the ability to due to physical damage or malformation of the brain)is easily observed.


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OfflineYgor
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Re: is compassion natural? [Re: sixxy] * 1
    #14058559 - 03/03/11 06:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, the evolution of altruism is a well-researched area of biology. It is a natural response, inborn to most mammals.

If the original poster is actually interested in this, The Selfish Gene is a good place, paradoxically, to start.

Or even just this link:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/


--------------------
Flowers gathered in the morning,
Afternoon they blossom on.
Still are withered by the evening,
You can be me when I'm gone.


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