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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14020854 - 02/24/11 04:22 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Yes Icelander agree...

Anyways e have been very limited in our debate so far to the English numbering system; how ignorant of us all!!

Look at the chinese numbering system. I could easily find their numbers in nature...

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14020992 - 02/24/11 04:53 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Once again, you find their (China's) numbers in nature because they are our numbers in a different language. And the reason they exist in either language is because we find them useful to model nature.

The only reason you guys think numbers are part of nature and not an invention of humans is because you've only studied one version of math. You were taught that version because it is the most useful for day to day life.

There are other versions with different definitions for numbers. Read back to the example from Group Theory I gave where 10 + 5 = 3.

Then show me a snowflake where 10 flakes + 5 flakes gives you 3 flakes. You can't because that particular Group and its axioms doesn't model that reality. Another one, the Peano axioms, do model snowflakes because it was invented for that purpose.

Try to think past what you've been taught as the foundation of everything. It isn't. It's just one kind of system for counting. There are others, just a valid, that won't balance your checkbook.

All of them, inventions of man.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14021011 - 02/24/11 04:56 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Ahhhh so you guys are turning his debate into "what came first: math or humans"

Now I understand why we are disagreeing. You've changed the topic...

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14021031 - 02/24/11 04:59 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Math, numbers. Same thing. :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14021126 - 02/24/11 05:15 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

please read everything I've said..


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14021981 - 02/24/11 07:28 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

i will stand corrected now actually, man vs. numbers, man cam first because we made words, this is an obvious statement because words come from human mouths. we made language therefore we made words. I guess i stupidly assumed that we all understood that, sorry. I'll wait for the man Vs. math thread i guess.


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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter]
    #14021993 - 02/24/11 07:30 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

how about the man vs the apple thread?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14022080 - 02/24/11 07:46 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

I don't think the world is ready for that thread unfortunately.

Also, I was thinking about how to formulate a discussion about math that won't lead to the exact same conclusion.  Perhaps, "To what degree does math exist in nature?"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14022085 - 02/24/11 07:48 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

It can only come to the same conclusion imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14022135 - 02/24/11 07:53 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Perhaps, "To what degree does mathematics apply to nature?"


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14022238 - 02/24/11 08:14 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

"To what degree does mathematics apply to nature?"

Now you're getting it. :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14022303 - 02/24/11 08:26 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

mathematics is attempting to describe nature

why is this a thread? clearly man came before any concept as concepts are created by man


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14022349 - 02/24/11 08:36 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

How about quantities or amounts? Three geese quacking has always been different from two geese quacking... right? One goose is the loneliest number it will ever be?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Rahz]
    #14022392 - 02/24/11 08:47 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

I could call three two and two three and it owuldn't matter, any of that stuff is just labeling whats already there


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14022402 - 02/24/11 08:49 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

And mathematicians often do exactly that. They create a different set of numbers and rules that won't balance your checkbook or do anything else practical but are just as valid as the ones we all learned in first grade.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleRahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14022488 - 02/24/11 09:11 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Okay so numbers as concepts clearly need humans, or at least minds... but whether we say a pair of ducks is two or three, it is still a duck and a duck, as opposed to a duck or a duck and a duck and a duck.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14022507 - 02/24/11 09:15 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

I believe math is probably used by animals as
well as humans, to a certain extent. Dna could
be said to control many mathematical functions,
and atomic structure has many numerical constants.
So i would say numbers have always existed, in various
different expressions.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14022656 - 02/24/11 09:45 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

I believe math is probably used by animals as
well as humans, to a certain extent.


Algebra or Trigonometry?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14022953 - 02/24/11 10:36 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Dna could be said to control many mathematical functions,
and atomic structure has many numerical constants.
So i would say numbers have always existed, in various
different expressions.


Once again, those things do not rely on math to exist or function. They posses certain relationships that exist without math just like the Earth exists without maps.

Then humans came along and invented axiomatic systems to model atoms and DNA. Those axiomatic systems are maps of the relationships that make atoms and DNA work. They are not the relationships and they are not necessary for atoms and DNA to work.

In the same way, the Earth doesn't need maps to exist. Maps just model the Earth. Math models atoms and DNA's functioning.

If you disagree, you are essentially saying that the Earth has maps as part of its makeup. But it doesn't. The Earth has geographical features and doesn't need maps for that to be true. Maps just model those geographical features in a way that humans find useful.

Just like math models atoms and DNA.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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