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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #14021763 - 02/24/11 06:46 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

It's true. If one only believes that death anxiety is conscious anxiety they will never see their unconscious death anxiety manifesting itself. When I read the book I was blown away by how many of my actions reflected an unconscious anxiety about my own impermanence.  Read the book!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104] * 2
    #14022138 - 02/24/11 07:54 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

like i said, i didn't say im not afraid of death just saying i don't want to live here forever.not saying the theory behind the book is not true, but just because someone says it is, doesn't make it so.

the author says stuff like

Quote:

portrays the schizophrenic as incapable of conforming to normal cultural standards and is thus incapable of death denial.





Quote:

Freud's Oedipus complex is reinterpreted to reflect the existential project of avoiding the implications of being a "body," and thus being mortal. The boy is attracted to his mother in an effort to become his own father, thereby attempting to transcend his mortality through an imagined self-sufficiency.



http://www.deathreference.com/A-Bi/Becker-Ernest.html

Quote:


Frankly I don't know any­thing more cogent that needs to be said about this syndrome: it is a failure in humanization, which means a failure to confidently deny man's real situation on this planet. Schizophrenia is the limiting test case for the theory of character and reality that we have been ex­pounding here: the failure to build dependable character defenses allows the true nature of reality to appear to man




evidence?

He also says
Quote:

Killing is a symbolic solution of a biological limitation; it results from the fusion of the biological level(animal anxiety) with the symbolic one(death fear) in the human animal.




that to me doesn't seem a plausible reason to explain why people kill each other with current science

Quote:

Man has no innate instincts of sexuality and aggression.





definitely not true.

Quote:

"Today we generally see homosexuality as a broad problem of ineptness, vague identity, passivity, helplessness--all in all, an inability to take a powerful stance toward life."




except for the fact it can be explained by genetics.

Quote:


The lower animals are, of course, spared this painful contradiction, as they lack a symbolic identity and the self-consciousness that goes with it.




except for studies are showing apes, dolphins, and elephants are self-aware. and it has been proven elephants mourn the dead.

Quote:


Religions like Hinduism and Buddhism performed the ingenious trick of pretending not to want to be reborn, which is a sort of negative magic: claiming not to want what you really want most




i don't know a lot about Buddhism, but that's a bold assertion.


i just don't think it's reasonable to assume death anxiety is not just another anxiety disorder(when the fear drastically affects one life) and everyone's afraid to die. if it is true the guy doesn't sound like a credible person to make the case. i also read he relies a lot on Kierkegaard writings who was a 19th century philosopher and religious author and reinterprets a lot of Sigmund Freud whose many theories were debunked.

also someone hasn't explained how the performance anxiety i had in baseball was related to my fear of death

Quote:


When I read the book I was blown away by how many of my actions reflected an unconscious anxiety about my own impermanence




no one's saying death anxiety doesn't affect people's lives, but it doesn't mean all anxiety and all of man's actions are the result of it.
i'm not against the theory just want to see evidence for it, until then it's just a belief with nothing to back it up.

Edited by bigmike7104 (02/24/11 08:24 PM)

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14022603 - 02/24/11 09:36 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

The book is old and doesn't take into account some of what you mention because the info simply wasn't available at the time.

Quote:

also someone hasn't explained how the performance anxiety i had in baseball was related to my fear of death




Why did you feel the need to do well at the sport?  Trace it backwards....


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Cups]
    #14022683 - 02/24/11 09:49 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

it certainly didn't have to do with death. and my point was it's not exactly a scientific book. he says all that shit in my above post as evidence for his claim, yet what he says his false. it's a nice theory and all but where's the evidence? i mean look at what his works are based on, a guy who lived in the 1800s who was a PHILOSOPHER and RELIGION AUTHOR and reinterpreting what freud said, whose theories are now known to not be very scientific. he claimed we were motivated by unconscious sexual desires, are you sure it's not that instead of death(though i doubt it's either).




--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (02/24/11 10:01 PM)

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14022696 - 02/24/11 09:51 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

OK I'll bite mike.  So why would you say you wanted to do well in baseball?

I'm assuming you did since you wouldn't have been nervous otherwise.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14022709 - 02/24/11 09:53 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

As I alluded to earlier, there is an instinctive correlation between procreation and extending ones life span. To have children is to live on in flesh and blood. So, for a young person involved in a social sport, performing well may feel like a matter of life and death. Even if females weren't watching at the time, level of skill will likely translate into some level of social validation, and establishing ones status in this area is an important part of attracting mates.

Another possible explanation is that any skill held in regard by others is a potential source of income. No income increases the chance of dieing. A person who was definitely pursuing a career in engineering wouldn't feel the same performance anxiety as a person who had serious hopes of being a major league player, though they may still want to play well for the ladies.

Quote:

i just don't think it's reasonable to assume death anxiety is not just another anxiety disorder(when the fear drastically affects one life) and everyone's afraid to die.




I haven't read the book, but I think all anxieties are death anxieties. Without death, what would there be to be anxious about?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Rahz]
    #14022783 - 02/24/11 10:05 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

what about social anxiety, just because your immortal doesn't mean you will be liked and have friends. or what about the phobia fear of public speaking, how does death tie into that?

as for baseball, it was thought of failing and that thought alone would give me almost panick attacks. i wanted to reach my goals so much the thought of not getting there made full of fear, it was nothing to do with attracting babes or social status (it's not like baseball is a popular sport except for pros anyway, the only people who would go to games is parents)

Quote:

To have children is to live on in flesh and blood. So, for a young person involved in a social sport, performing well may feel like a matter of life and death. Even if females weren't watching at the time, level of skill will likely translate into some level of social validation, and establishing ones status in this area is an important part of attracting mates.




i see that as more to do with frueds sexual theory not death. i don't think the ego thinks their kid is the same identity.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Edited by bigmike7104 (02/24/11 10:18 PM)

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14022840 - 02/24/11 10:15 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

as for baseball, it was thought of failing...i wanted to reach my goals so much the thought of not getting there made full of fear




Just one more question- Why were these goals so important to you?  Try to put into words why.


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Cups]
    #14022898 - 02/24/11 10:25 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

as for baseball, it was thought of failing...i wanted to reach my goals so much the thought of not getting there made full of fear




Just one more question- Why were these goals so important to you?  Try to put into words why.





i don't even know anymore, i haven't been on a baseball team in two years, i still love it but i don't know why i was so irrational about it. i'm sure part of it was that your the center of attention and if you don't pitch well the team loses(unless the other pitcher doesn't do well) if the coaches don't take you out. there was a time though i loved that pressure not sure where it turned.

also i thought i should mention there have been cases of great professional pitchers getting performance anxiety and had to sit out an entire season, so it's not just people who want big money and chicks and becoming pro. cases like that are interesting...


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14022907 - 02/24/11 10:28 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I think the mind has been conditioned over millions of years, and requires specific triggers to alleviate anxiety. Not saying anything isn't possible, just that we have instinctive tendencys and desires which promote anxiety as opposed to conscious logic leading to anxiety.

A social life is ingrained into the psyche, and there is no easy defence against it other than to be social. I agree, one could be rich and have 20 babies, but still experience social anxiety.

Quote:

i see that as more to do with frueds sexual theory not death. i don't think the ego thinks their kid is the same identity.




I think the subconscious mind holds a very close correlation between life and sex, death and the absence of sex. A child isn't the same identity, but it's not the identity the biological organism is worried about. It's worried about the continuation of life, and no children means death in that regard. The ego thinks in terms of social validation and pleasure, but the underlying basis is that those things promote and indicate health, and life, and the continuation of the species on an intimate level. Most people aren't going to be happy other people are having children. To not receive those things indicates disease and death.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14022952 - 02/24/11 10:36 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Well since you stuck with it- Here's my take.

Death anxiety goes way beyond just the fear of dying.  This is what everyone seems to miss.  They get stuck on the dying part and forget to look into what dying REALLY means.  It means that, in effect, everything is completely meaningless.  Nothing lasts.

Somewhere in early childhood we realize we're a bunch of pissing shitting bleeding sacks of decaying meat waiting to expire.  It's sucks.

Because of that we always try and find things to "make" life meaningful.  We belong to things greater than ourselves, we have children which outlive us and carry on our memory, we believe in good and God and all kinds of symbols...shields as Icelander would say.

IMO Baseball was your shield.  It made you special, gave your life meaning.  Deep down you knew that losing that shield would mean a painful process of finding something else to base your life around.  The idea of that buried deep inside your subconscious was the source of the panic IMO.

2 years later...and here you are at the shroomery asking questions about life.  Coincidence?

:strokebeard:

Serious question- Would you be here if you were in the majors right now? 

:strokebeard:


--------------------
What's up everybody?!

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Cups]
    #14022996 - 02/24/11 10:43 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I think he wanted the blonde in the bleachers.:tongue:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #14023091 - 02/24/11 10:59 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

I think the mind has been conditioned over millions of years, and requires specific triggers to alleviate anxiety. Not saying anything isn't possible, just that we have instinctive tendencys and desires which promote anxiety as opposed to conscious logic leading to anxiety.

A social life is ingrained into the psyche, and there is no easy defence against it other than to be social. I agree, one could be rich and have 20 babies, but still experience social anxiety.





i agree most anxiety is illogical and is based in irrational fear. you also bring me to my next point. just because anxiety first evolved for the fear of death to keep our ancestors alive, doesn't mean it's still there for that reason only. it just means the system is still easily activated in anticipation of negative events, whether it be the thought of death or the fear of looking stupid. i'm sure they would've had phobias just like us if there was time to worry about such trivial things in comparison to constantly worrying about survival.

also yea our ancestors life's were based around evading death, but doesn't mean it was an unconscious fear. it means they constantly had to hunt, get water, and be constantly on the look out for predators.also just because they felt fear on a physical level, doesn't mean there emotionally afraid. it just means there adrenaline system is activated.

Quote:

Somewhere in early childhood we realize we're a bunch of pissing shitting bleeding sacks of decaying meat waiting to expire.  It's sucks.

Because of that we always try and find things to "make" life meaningful.  We belong to things greater than ourselves, we have children which outlive us and carry on our memory, we believe in good and God and all kinds of symbols...shields as Icelander would say.

IMO Baseball was your shield.  It made you special, gave your life meaning.  Deep down you knew that losing that shield would mean a painful process of finding something else to base your life around.  The idea of that buried deep inside your subconscious was the source of the panic IMO.

2 years later...and here you are at the shroomery asking questions about life.  Coincidence?

:strokebeard:

Serious question- Would you be here if you were in the majors right now?

:strokebeard:





meaning of life is whatever you make it. i never had that view were a bunch decaying meat waiting to expire but that were humans here to live and experience life which can be crappy but also can be quite awesome and beautiful. it's not like baseball was the only thing i did that made me happy. i tripped, smoked pot, played guitar, skateboarded, hiked, played basketball for fun.

and i realistically knew what the chances are of getting in to the pros were. and what about my above example of pros who get anxiety after they make it and couldn't play for an extended period of time. zach greinke is a current one that it happened to.

i didn't come here for life questions, but initially about the psychedelics. i've been reading this site first in the 6th grade after when i first did mushrooms, and then again my junior year of high school then finally registered this past summer. so yea i'd still be here and would prob make big donations if i made it that far :tongue:
Quote:


I think he wanted the blonde in the bleachers.:tongue:





that would be my ex girlfriend, the only high school girl in the stands haha.


i still maintain though i wouldn't want to live forever but would rather move on just a lot later then the current average life span. the thing that scares me is obviously the unknown but also how fast time goes by.




Edited by bigmike7104 (02/24/11 11:58 PM)

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104] * 1
    #14023885 - 02/25/11 03:05 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Death is the achievement of a lifetime.

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Brainstem]
    #14024346 - 02/25/11 08:19 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

meaning of life is whatever you make it. i never had that view were a bunch decaying meat waiting to expire but that were humans here to live and experience life which can be crappy but also can be quite awesome and beautiful.




:lol: Once again, this fear isn't something you are consciously aware of.  That's the whole point.  In fact part of the reason you are so resistant to "belief" is the fact that you (at a subconscious level) are protecting yourself from...yourself. 

Quote:

it's not like baseball was the only thing i did that made me happy. i tripped, smoked pot, played guitar, skateboarded, hiked, played basketball for fun.




It's amazing the things we come up with to distract ourselves from reality.  :thumbup:

Quote:

i didn't come here for life questions, but initially about the psychedelics. i've been reading this site first in the 6th grade after when i first did mushrooms, and then again my junior year of high school then finally registered this past summer. so yea i'd still be here and would prob make big donations if i made it that far :tongue:




Dude, if you taking shrooms and hanging out in the PS&P you've got life questions!  It's not a bad thing. :shrug:

I guess I'll leave you with one last question.  Why do you suppose it is that humans- you - feel a need to be happy?  You gave me a big list of thing you've done that made you happy, but why did you have to do them to be happy in the first place? 

Take some time and think about that.


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What's up everybody?!

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Cups]
    #14025328 - 02/25/11 12:47 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

:lol: Once again, this fear isn't something you are consciously aware of.  That's the whole point.  In fact part of the reason you are so resistant to "belief" is the fact that you (at a subconscious level) are protecting yourself from...yourself.




i acknowledged that i have some fear in it already, i'm just saying where is this proof everybody in this world feels death anxiety consciously or subconsciously. 

Quote:


losing that shield would mean a painful process of finding something else to base your life around.





i was listing those activities to say i wouldn't have to go through the painful process of finding something else to base around. just because i did activities i enjoyed doesn't mean i didn't have a shitty depression or didn't think about death during those times. while doing the activities i agree though it's a good distraction.
Quote:


why did you have to do them to be happy in the first place?




i wouldn't know if i had to do them to be happy so much as not to be bored, though i think it makes you more likely to be happy.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104] * 1
    #14025401 - 02/25/11 01:01 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

I think you make some good points. I think 'death anxiety' is an umbrella term that doesn't do the full spectrum of human emotion justice, though it is useful enough to get a person to consider the root causes of anything which is done. A person who goes skydiving, or any other extreme sport, is invoking the fear of death, though anxiety might not seem like the best term. It could apply, and seems like it has to do with the degree to which a person resists their emotions (fears). One person might land on the ground pale as a ghost swearing to never skydiving again, another person might yell "yeee hawwwww! let's do it again!"

Quote:

i wouldn't know if i had to do them to be happy so much as not to be bored, though i think it makes you more likely to be happy.




Boredom is death anxiety. :grin:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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InvisibleCups
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Rahz]
    #14025430 - 02/25/11 01:09 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

i acknowledged that i have some fear in it already, i'm just saying where is this proof everybody in this world feels death anxiety consciously or subconsciously. 




This is a decent primer.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/173530/flight-from-death-the-quest-for-immortality


Quote:


i wouldn't know if i had to do them to be happy so much as not to be bored




God forbid anyone take a few days and just sit still.  Being alone with yourself is the scariest thing in the world.


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What's up everybody?!

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: Rahz]
    #14025476 - 02/25/11 01:22 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

A person who goes skydiving, or any other extreme sport, is invoking the fear of death




i know that and i know there are many other phobias that involve death anxiety too like fear of heights, snakes, water but doesn't mean they all do like my examples earlier, social anxiety, fear of criticism, performance anxiety. i think these all have to do with the person wanting to look good to irrational depths and i don't think mortality or immortality changes those.

Quote:

One person might land on the ground pale as a ghost swearing to never skydiving again, another person might yell "yeee hawwwww! let's do it again!"




the difference here i think is the person who wants to do it again felt fear on a physical level and not an emotional level, but the person who doesn't probably felt both.
Quote:


Boredom is death anxiety. :grin:




fuuuuuck im bored right now!  :uhoh:

Quote:


God forbid anyone take a few days and just sit still.  Being alone with yourself is the scariest thing in the world.




who said i was never alone with myself and i was always doing something.
god forbid anyone mind their own business.
also the link you posted is too long all watch it later though
though i did see this
Quote:

heavily influenced by the views of cultural anthropologist Ernest Becker




which reminds me, where has icelander been i would think he would want to defend his sacred book

Edited by bigmike7104 (02/25/11 01:32 PM)

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Prove death anxiety. [Re: bigmike7104]
    #14025780 - 02/25/11 02:27 PM (13 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

social anxiety, fear of criticism, performance anxiety. i think these all have to do with the person wanting to look good to irrational depths and i don't think mortality or immortality changes those.




I agree that they can be taken to irrational levels, but either way I think mortality plays a key role. For a person who never had any chance of dieing, anxiety would be useless, as would being social, and performing in any sense of the word. I think death plays a key part in our ability to be 'alive' to begin with.

If you trade the term anxiety for tension, it may make more sense. It takes tension to move, speak, eat, breathe, etc. no matter how relaxed a person is. Tension isn't felt as anxiety, but all tension, anxious or not, is involved in the effort of maintaining life. It is only when tension rises to an uncomfortable level that it can be properly called anxiety, and discomfort is an indicator of the possibility of death. Therefore all anxiety is death anxiety. Social anxiety can be explained in several ways, but the ultimate is being an outcast, which traditionally (think tribal) would increase the chance of death a great deal for most. Criticism and athletic performance both relate to social validation.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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