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jimbotron
Patty-Cake Enthusiast



Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
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To all the union haters
#14020107 - 02/24/11 01:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Have you ever received overtime pay?
Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.
I've got a one word explanation as to the origins of overtime pay (not to mention the weekend), but I'm genuinely curious as to how the hardcore "unions = cancer" people think it developed. Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?
On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?
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argg
Stranger


Registered: 07/20/09
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: jimbotron]
#14020163 - 02/24/11 02:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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my union has great training. The union fees go towards an excellent facility to keep people learning and safe. Some unions may be really crooked but the union I am in if you are a lazy sac that does nothing you will get fired and blacklisted. I hear all the horror stories and just don't see it from my house. I hear all sorts of union hate and I think its people jealous that they never where good enough to get in one.the union I am in would test 5-10k people a year and let maybe a few hundred in.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: jimbotron]
#14020183 - 02/24/11 02:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
jimbotron said: Have you ever received overtime pay?
No. Didn't pay it either.Quote:
Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.
No it came from the textbook of lazy fucks getting more for not much. Since it isn't in the Constitution why the fuck should the government be involved telling private citizens what they should pay?Quote:
I've got a one word explanation as to the origins of overtime pay (not to mention the weekend), but I'm genuinely curious as to how the hardcore "unions = cancer" people think it developed. Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?
It developed when they got greedy and destroyed companies. Also the grotesque increase in public sector compensation.Quote:
On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?
Compulsory OT pay? Yes. Voluntary OT pay? No. Except in emergencies I don't think employers should be able to compel OT work.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
#14020187 - 02/24/11 02:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
argg said: my union has great training. The union fees go towards an excellent facility to keep people learning and safe. Some unions may be really crooked but the union I am in if you are a lazy sac that does nothing you will get fired and blacklisted. I hear all the horror stories and just don't see it from my house. I hear all sorts of union hate and I think its people jealous that they never where good enough to get in one.the union I am in would test 5-10k people a year and let maybe a few hundred in.
What union?
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: jimbotron]
#14020201 - 02/24/11 02:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Private sector unions and public employee unions are not the same thing.
Private sector unions are - for the most part - less harmful to the economy than public employee unions. It is true that private sector unions do raise prices, reduce profitability, reduce the return on pension funds which have union businesses in their portfolio, and create a bunch of other well-understood negative effects on the economy, but even all those bad effects added together are arguably relatively small beans compared to the damage done by PEUs.
Phred
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argg
Stranger


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14020215 - 02/24/11 02:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
argg said: my union has great training. The union fees go towards an excellent facility to keep people learning and safe. Some unions may be really crooked but the union I am in if you are a lazy sac that does nothing you will get fired and blacklisted. I hear all the horror stories and just don't see it from my house. I hear all sorts of union hate and I think its people jealous that they never where good enough to get in one.the union I am in would test 5-10k people a year and let maybe a few hundred in.
What union?
pipefitters
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
#14020252 - 02/24/11 02:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good trade. Yeah, you can't fuck around with that. Incompetent pipefitters get people killed. Of course, that doesn't have anything to do with unionism. Could just as easily be addressed with licensing and certification. Like with welders
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
#14020253 - 02/24/11 02:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I base my negative views on Unions to my experience of being in involved with two of them. It could well be there's some great ones out there but it seems that organized crime has invaded the big ones or many of them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MelloRed


Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 186
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Icelander]
#14020527 - 02/24/11 03:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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My company put me on salary so they can make me work 50+ w/ the same pay. Beats not having a job though. Unions have their place and the workplace reforms that have happened over the last 140ish years are due to unions or those fighting to organize.
That said, today many unions have companies/our government by the balls. They force companies to keep employees that are worthless and force them to go through miles of red tape to innovate and add/change job responsibilities. To give an example, when I did computer support there were some companies I couldn't ship parts to in the NE for the end user to install. Not even a keyboard or mouse. Reason is their job responsibilities didn't include computer repair. The employee didn't even have a choice, the company had to ensure they didn't. That's just fucking stupid. Many require employees to join if they want to work at a place, have huge dues, and do very little for people.
Unions have their place, but IMO they are more detrimental than helpful in today's economy with the standards the majority of companies follow now. There's a balance that needs to be met.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: MelloRed]
#14020642 - 02/24/11 03:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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They have outlived their utility.
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argg
Stranger


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14021019 - 02/24/11 04:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
no otherwise they would not be around.
I enjoy knowing that even if the company I might be working for goes belly up due to incompetent bidding or something stupid my retirement plan with the union is safe. I like that I could jump from one place to another and my benefits do not change and if I want to take a few more classes I can and will. I don't understand the union hate until I think about it from management side and see that they want employees to make just enough to eat that day and pay for a tiny apartment. They want to be able to fire you if you do not want to do something that might not be safe or use some rigging gear that is well past worn out. They want to be able to give you next to no benefits or retirement leaving you destitute in your old age after you abuse your body for them. They want to be able to have unlimited funds given to lobbyists for their goals while breaking the only people fighting for the workers, the unions.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
#14021120 - 02/24/11 05:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
argg said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
no otherwise they would not be around.
In case you haven't noticed they pretty much aren't any more except in the public sector.Quote:
I enjoy knowing that even if the company I might be working for goes belly up due to incompetent bidding or something stupid my retirement plan with the union is safe.
Well that is a false security, my friend.Quote:
I
like that I could jump from one place to another and my benefits do not change and if I want to take a few more classes I can and will. I don't understand the union hate until I think about it from management side and see that they want employees to make just enough to eat that day and pay for a tiny apartment.
No, that is a false dichotomy.Quote:
They want to be able to fire you if you do not want to do something that might not be safe or use some rigging gear that is well past worn out. They want to be able to give you next to no benefits or retirement leaving you destitute in your old age after you abuse your body for them. They want to be able to have unlimited funds given to lobbyists for their goals while breaking the only people fighting for the workers, the unions.
As an employer I made sure, in my own self interest, that conditions were safe. Secondly, as an employer and an adult human being I realized that people make choices and that some of their choices may not be wise or forward thinking but it wasn't my business. I gave them money. What they chose to do with it was 100% their business. Imposing a retirement plan they may not want or health insurance they may not want was not my call to make. Many benefits are only suitable to married with 2. What about single people? Or consider gender inequity. Female health care is way more expensive than male health care even discounting pregnancy. What about somebody who would rather structure their own retirement plan? Not my call to make. Unions are just another mechanism to infantilize the populace and take choice away.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14021585 - 02/24/11 06:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Many benefits are only suitable to married with 2. What about single people?
Give me the money and let me decide and I'll come out way ahead. Of course many people would waste that money but that's their problem.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: jimbotron]
#14030103 - 02/26/11 12:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Many benefits are only suitable to married with 2. What about single people?
Give me the money and let me decide and I'll come out way ahead. Of course many people would waste that money but that's their problem.
Yeah, it also encourages people to go to the doctor for stupid crap, raising costs, as well as lessens the effects of prohibitions on medical care and drugs outside of the goverment's whims (unfortunately, such whims seem to be largely determined by the medical lobbying groups and professionals' groups). When your unable to buy your medicine or receive advice without the government's permission (via the 'special people' who given you permission for them), it becomes somewhat less oppressive when you have a generally low-cost (in per instance apparent cost terms) solution via insurance. The relatively-new oppressions such as these in the medical arena would be more widely opposed if they were more directly harming people. The insurance benefits (prepaid medical) probably lessened the harms of these restrictions, allowing them to be instituted by the quasi-fascist regulations that have been advanced in the US, a large amount of which are an effect of the "war on drugs".
The union I was in had a bunch of welfare queens who weighed more than me (and I'm a tall guy) waddling around doing pretty much nothing. There's this guy who worked there who couldn't even afford to pay for heat in the winter, and was on food stamps and all sorts of government care, and the bum decided to have another child with his wife. What an ass- I wish I was compensated as well as them (insurance reimbursments). Just working with people like that brings down morale. If I was paid per the work I actually did, I'd have been making a much better wage and wouldn't have quit.
Quote:
jimbotron said: Have you ever received overtime pay?
Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.
What does teh constitution have to do with anything?
Anyways, how was the result of overtime pay not a result of the free market? Explain that.
Quote:
Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?
They did it because they believed it was in their interest to do it. That's free market economics by definition. I'm a bit confused why you seem to represent unions as a force outside the free market. How do you justify this stance?
Quote:
On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?
No. Its a thing. Bad or good really depends on the circumstances. In the end, its seldom any of my buisness, per se, what a company pays or a worker demands. I'm unsure what the relevance of this is.
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: johnm214]
#14035727 - 02/27/11 12:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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how does the medical system work with free health care in england so well, that differs from our system so much??
ALSO:
this coming summer aren't we do for a possible minimum wage raise again? let me know, thanks
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14035880 - 02/27/11 01:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR] 1
#14035924 - 02/27/11 01:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?
Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14035955 - 02/27/11 01:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?
Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.
Oh, yes, because one lone working man can protect himself from any given corporation.
That's BRILLIANT, sir! Why didn't they think of this in 1904?
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Friskies

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036125 - 02/27/11 01:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.
Wtf, Are you being serious? Oh but I forgot...
-------------------- Stoner extraordinaire
Edited by Friskies (02/27/11 01:51 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
#14036141 - 02/27/11 01:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?
Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.
Oh, yes, because one lone working man can protect himself from any given corporation.
That's BRILLIANT, sir! Why didn't they think of this in 1904?
Poor little baby can't find another company to work for? Awwwwwwwwwww.
Unions represent less than 10% of private sector workers. I haven't seen all that many chain gangs in the private sector.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036292 - 02/27/11 02:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Poor little baby can't find another company to work for? Awwwwwwwwwww.
What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap? Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
#14036366 - 02/27/11 02:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Poor little baby can't find another company to work for? Awwwwwwwwwww.
What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap? Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.
Right. You have a future in fantasy literature.
So since jobs are scarce you think increased unionization creates more jobs? Do you know who pays for the union benefits? Everybody. You know who gets union benefits? Only union members. Unionization screws everybody not in a union. Which is by far most people. Then there is the corrupting factor involved in having both sides of the public sector negotiating table beholden to one side. Say, do you know who owns a lot of those private sector corporations you hate? Union pension funds.
It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch. It was the social engineers helping out to too great an extent losers, ne'erdowells and scam artists. Would there be a problem if bums repaid the money they borrowed? Nope.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036662 - 02/27/11 03:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Poor little baby can't find another company to work for? Awwwwwwwwwww.
What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap? Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.
Right. You have a future in fantasy literature.
So since jobs are scarce you think increased unionization creates more jobs? Do you know who pays for the union benefits? Everybody. You know who gets union benefits? Only union members. Unionization screws everybody not in a union. Which is by far most people. Then there is the corrupting factor involved in having both sides of the public sector negotiating table beholden to one side. Say, do you know who owns a lot of those private sector corporations you hate? Union pension funds.
It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch. It was the social engineers helping out to too great an extent losers, ne'erdowells and scam artists. Would there be a problem if bums repaid the money they borrowed? Nope.
So your argument is that shareholders have the right to organize via management, but labor has no right to organize at all?
Am I reading this right?
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036667 - 02/27/11 03:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch.
Oh, no, Goldman Sachs plundering AIG through manipulated margin calls didn't hurt a thing.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
#14036741 - 02/27/11 04:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch.
Oh, no, Goldman Sachs plundering AIG through manipulated margin calls didn't hurt a thing.
Whatever occurred between Goldman and AIG was a private business transaction. Goldman purchased insurance from AIG. AIG was responsible to honor their obligations. I know the entire concept of contracts and obligations are foreign to you but that is the foundation of all business. And it had nothing to do with manipulating margin calls. Your ignorance is staggering.
Were you an AIG shareholder?
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036746 - 02/27/11 04:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I know the entire concept of contracts and obligations are foreign to you but that is the foundation of all business.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036767 - 02/27/11 04:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Whatever occurred between Goldman and AIG was a private business transaction. Goldman purchased insurance from AIG. AIG was responsible to honor their obligations.
Not what I'm talking about.
http://moneymorning.com/2008/09/22/credit-default-swaps-2/
Goldman Sachs was using margin calls to milk AIG by intentionally dumping CDOs for more than a year before the crash.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
#14036786 - 02/27/11 04:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Poor little baby can't find another company to work for? Awwwwwwwwwww.
What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap? Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.
Right. You have a future in fantasy literature.
So since jobs are scarce you think increased unionization creates more jobs? Do you know who pays for the union benefits? Everybody. You know who gets union benefits? Only union members. Unionization screws everybody not in a union. Which is by far most people. Then there is the corrupting factor involved in having both sides of the public sector negotiating table beholden to one side. Say, do you know who owns a lot of those private sector corporations you hate? Union pension funds.
It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch. It was the social engineers helping out to too great an extent losers, ne'erdowells and scam artists. Would there be a problem if bums repaid the money they borrowed? Nope.
So your argument is that shareholders have the right to organize via management, but labor has no right to organize at all?
Am I reading this right?
Labor in the private sector has the right to get away with whatever it can get away with. I have no obligation to buy stock in a company that let's their workforce destroy them. For instance, I would never consider buying stock in GM, Chrysler and Ford. Shareholders have the right to tell labor to fuck off any time they want. They own the company. Private sector labor has the right to try to get whatever they can. They also have the right to fuck off and die. The purpose of a company is to make money for the owners. Labor is a means to that end. Providing jobs is not the purpose of a business.
Do you know who pays the price for unions? Everybody. Business margins are generally pretty tight. If an industry pays more because of unions their product costs more. Fewer people buy their product. Fewer products are produced. Fewer people work producing those products. Unions are by definition protectionist.
Finally, how do you feel about compulsory union membership? I find it to be fascist.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
#14036808 - 02/27/11 04:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?
Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.
Oh, yes, because one lone working man can protect himself from any given corporation.
That's BRILLIANT, sir! Why didn't they think of this in 1904?
This seems to be a pretty blatant straw man argument. It seems to me zappa simply stated that he does not expect government to protect the workers rights, he expects them to protect their own interests (a position I agree with, any system which divests the rights of a class 'for their own good' and gives them to another for safekeeping, is no different fundamentally from a system which simply removes those rights entirely without paying lipservice to the notion of 'helping people'.) You in turn argue against the proposition that one lone man can defend himself from any given coporation.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Your argument seems calculated for emotional appeal rather than any logical point.
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Poor little baby can't find another company to work for? Awwwwwwwwwww.
What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap? Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.
Ok, so you've alleged this condition to be so. What is your point? You seem to make bare claims without any clear connection to the issue at hand. How is the relative lack of available positionsn at a given time of any relevance?
The only unstated argument I could imagine is that government should protect those fortunate enough to have a job in this situation of difficult employment you've alleged to exist, rather than those who desperately need a job.
Is this not terribly selfish and arbitrary? Far from helping the havenots, you ensure they cannot find employment as even those few positions you allege to exist are protected by government intervention and unlikely to become vacant. Rather than helping the people as you claim, you seem to favor helping a particular class, not the lower class mind you.
Seems similar to the medicare part D arguments and the whole healthcare debate that people claim to be favoring for charitable reasons. They fail to explain how they justify providing these relatively extravagant benerfits to a select class when far more basic needs such as shelter, clothing, and food are not provided by government. What it seems to me, is that these people are just greedy- they simply want wealth and are using the charitable argument as one of convenience. If they really cared of the less fortunate they'd start at the bottom of the socioeconomic latter, rather than arbitrarily selecting their class to be the one of benefit and not giving a damn about those worse off.
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036809 - 02/27/11 04:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Labor in the private sector has the right to get away with whatever it can get away with. I have no obligation to buy stock in a company that let's their workforce destroy them. For instance, I would never consider buying stock in GM, Chrysler and Ford. Shareholders have the right to tell labor to fuck off any time they want. They own the company. Private sector labor has the right to try to get whatever they can. They also have the right to fuck off and die. The purpose of a company is to make money for the owners. Labor is a means to that end. Providing jobs is not the purpose of a business.
Do you know who pays the price for unions? Everybody. Business margins are generally pretty tight. If an industry pays more because of unions their product costs more. Fewer people buy their product. Fewer products are produced. Fewer people work producing those products. Unions are by definition protectionist.
Finally, how do you feel about compulsory union membership? I find it to be fascist.
Wow. There isn't an emoticon in the world to express the sheer amount of hilarity.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
#14036908 - 02/27/11 04:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
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zappaisgod said:
Whatever occurred between Goldman and AIG was a private business transaction. Goldman purchased insurance from AIG. AIG was responsible to honor their obligations.
Not what I'm talking about.
http://moneymorning.com/2008/09/22/credit-default-swaps-2/
Goldman Sachs was using margin calls to milk AIG by intentionally dumping CDOs for more than a year before the crash.
Interesting link. Not mentioned anywhere in it were the words "Goldman Sachs". So Goldman hedged against a default by the insurer they bought policy from. Although they still lost money on the deal they lost less than they would have. Good for them. What a stunning development, Goldman is smarter than somebody else. How evil.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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appeals to incredulity aren't helpful towards resolving this difference of views.
I note that the opponents of zappa's views seem unable to address his argument squarely. Is this because you've got nothing?
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phoxyilluminata
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: johnm214]
#14036986 - 02/27/11 04:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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johnm214 said: appeals to incredulity aren't helpful towards resolving this difference of views.
I note that the opponents of zappa's views seem unable to address his argument squarely. Is this because you've got nothing?
Who wants to resolve a difference of views? I find it hilarious.
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Therian
Stranger

Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 684
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Quote:
So Goldman hedged against a default by the insurer they bought policy from. Although they still lost money on the deal they lost less than they would have. Good for them. What a stunning development, Goldman is smarter than somebody else. How evil.
Right, haven't we already heard the "smartest guys in the room argument".http://www.marketwatch.com/story/goldman-charged-with-fraud-over-paulson-cdo-trade-2010-04-16. By Goldmans OWN ADMISSION they stated that they misled (flat out lied) to investors. These smart guys were levied with the largest fine ever by the SEC. They paid over half a billion dollars in fines. They used banker thuggery and deception to get the ratings agencies they were paying to lie about the quality of their investments and how the portfolios were put together. http://seekingalpha.com/article/200757-goldman-sachs-vs-the-rating-agencies-models
97% of all the investments which were falsely given the coveted AAA rating were later downgraded to junk status. Goldman et al. even started their own commodities exchange, have you never heard of ICE and how it was able to artificially manipulate the market and raise the global cost of oil? http://seekingalpha.com/article/172797-the-global-oil-scam-50-times-bigger-than-madoff. And you think the unions are the ones ripping people off.
Of course the pathetic financial reform written by the dems, and chastised by the repubs will do absolutely nothing to preclude another financial meltdown from occurring again. Both parties are bought and paid for by those who enjoy having our reps nuzzle their goldmans sack.
The investigation -- which reviewed hundreds of emails and interviews with officials at rating agencies -- revealed a world of overwhelmed analysts who didn't have enough data about securities they were rating and were under pressure from investment banks such as Goldman Sachs Group Inc. /quotes/comstock/13*!gs/quotes/nls/gs (GS 163.81, +0.03, +0.02%) to issue good ratings for complex securities that were at the heart of the financial crisis.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: johnm214]
#14043486 - 02/28/11 04:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Yeah, it also encourages people to go to the doctor for stupid crap, raising costs, as well as lessens the effects of prohibitions on medical care and drugs outside of the goverment's whims
Most unions I've ever been involved with didn't have 'insurance'. We have a benefit fund that we pay into, and the employers also deduct a certain amount from our pay to go into the fund. Medical bills are then paid directly from that fund. It's far more efficient than insurance where the insurance company has a burden to the stockholders to turn a profit.
Quote:
johnm214 said: The union I was in had a bunch of welfare queens who weighed more than me (and I'm a tall guy) waddling around doing pretty much nothing.
I worked out of various IBEW locals over the last 30 years, and was a general foreman or superintendent for the last ten years before 'retiring'. I can't count the number of guys I fired. It was as simple as saying, "go back to the hall". No questions asked. I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions. If someone is lazy on the job, he's as likely to get his ass kicked in the parking lot as fired. Either way, problem solved. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14043557 - 02/28/11 05:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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RogerRabbit said: Most unions I've ever been involved with didn't have 'insurance'. We have a benefit fund that we pay into, and the employers also deduct a certain amount from our pay to go into the fund. Medical bills are then paid directly from that fund. It's far more efficient than insurance where the insurance company has a burden to the stockholders to turn a profit.
union I was in back in the day had the same thing, you had to fight them tooth and nail to get them to pay your medical, one guy's wife had cancer, almost bankrupted the fund because apparently the union also used it for petty cash
Quote:
I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions
it really depends on the union, the UAW and RWDSU are all about protecting the company while keeping slackers on the job, tried to vote out RWDSU but it would have cut us to minimum wage for a year, lost any benefits and what they wanted to call insurance
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14043899 - 02/28/11 05:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Yeah, it also encourages people to go to the doctor for stupid crap, raising costs, as well as lessens the effects of prohibitions on medical care and drugs outside of the goverment's whims
Most unions I've ever been involved with didn't have 'insurance'. We have a benefit fund that we pay into, and the employers also deduct a certain amount from our pay to go into the fund. Medical bills are then paid directly from that fund. It's far more efficient than insurance where the insurance company has a burden to the stockholders to turn a profit.
I wasn't implying the union I was a part of or unions in general do have insurance, only that they often include such healthcare benefits as requirements for contracting with the employer. This was the case in my instance. In my case the situation was similar to what you specify, though a bit more formal: the employer is required to cover the qualifying members and used an insurance company to administer the benefits (Aetna). The company then paid those claims plus the compensation for the insurance company to process them. I imagine his only works with large companies, others would require third-party insurance.
Essentially I agree with your criticism of insurance, and throw in medicare/aid as well. Its no conicidence that almost all practitioners charge an astronomical amount of money for every service and then generally all accept the same fee from those in the right "club" (the medicare negotiated rate). Ends up functioning like an illegal trust. Pretty anticompetitive if you ask me, and a good argument against federal healthcare administration. At least state administered programs would compete with each other rather than forming a single entity that drives costs up and competition down.
Quote:
Quote:
johnm214 said: The union I was in had a bunch of welfare queens who weighed more than me (and I'm a tall guy) waddling around doing pretty much nothing.
I worked out of various IBEW locals over the last 30 years, and was a general foreman or superintendent for the last ten years before 'retiring'. I can't count the number of guys I fired. It was as simple as saying, "go back to the hall". No questions asked. I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions. If someone is lazy on the job, he's as likely to get his ass kicked in the parking lot as fired. Either way, problem solved. RR
I was a member of the International Assoc. of Machinists, working a part time job. The members sure as hell were lazy, though I can't in good conciousness neccesarily identify the union as the culprit. Management simply was absent and ignorant, and not particularly concerned with our work as they either didn't know how to do it or didn't care as it was outside their area.
I sure wish we had someone like you to whip the people into shape where I worked. We had no parking lot ass kickings or any of that. The result was that you couldn't get as many hours because the union insisted on jobs going in order of seniority rather than merit, and the contracted overtime meant people like me couldn't take on extra hours as the employer didn't want to pay it. The people hodling their jobs took their time doing anything, secure in the knowledge that they couldn't be fired (union would protect them) if they a) showed up, b) clocked in an out, c) didn't steal or take overtime.
It really drove down morale as nobody really cared about getting the job done and hence there was no point to even coming to work. Additonally, getting paid a wage that had nothign to do with your competence, work ethic, or value you gave to the company, wasn't fun. You had the opportunity to advance, yes, but that was ONLY per seniority, not merit. Not cool.
Quote:
phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: appeals to incredulity aren't helpful towards resolving this difference of views.
I note that the opponents of zappa's views seem unable to address his argument squarely. Is this because you've got nothing?
Who wants to resolve a difference of views? I find it hilarious.
I want to resolve a difference of views, and i presume others do as well. Posters on this message board are granted the courtesy of presuming their good faith. If your clarifying that you are not posting in good faith and without an attempt to reconcile the various arguments, then the administration has remedies for this. Either way, if you aren't posting with the goal of encouraging intelligent discussion of the issue, you don't belong here- try the pub or a general-interest social forum.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14043920 - 02/28/11 05:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions.
Whatever union Boeing employees are members of has Boeing in contracts that severely limit their ability to fire any union employees (which by contract is pretty much all hourly employees). Firing can only be done on a seniority basis. That is, only the last person hired can be fired. If two people were hired on the same day, they can only be fired in reverse alphabetical order--I shit you not. It is possible to fire out of seniority order, but only in the case of three disciplinary actions in a six month period, or one very very severe infraction. In practice, out of seniority firing almost never occurs.
Apparently the union makes Boeing jobs so cushy that once they do get laid off, nobody will hire them back once they see that they worked for Boeing because they know that if they get recalled, they will return to their old jobs.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Therian]
#14044042 - 02/28/11 06:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Therian said:
Quote:
So Goldman hedged against a default by the insurer they bought policy from. Although they still lost money on the deal they lost less than they would have. Good for them. What a stunning development, Goldman is smarter than somebody else. How evil.
Right, haven't we already heard the "smartest guys in the room argument".http://www.marketwatch.com/story/goldman-charged-with-fraud-over-paulson-cdo-trade-2010-04-16. By Goldmans OWN ADMISSION they stated that they misled (flat out lied) to investors. These smart guys were levied with the largest fine ever by the SEC. They paid over half a billion dollars in fines. They used banker thuggery and deception to get the ratings agencies they were paying to lie about the quality of their investments and how the portfolios were put together. http://seekingalpha.com/article/200757-goldman-sachs-vs-the-rating-agencies-models
97% of all the investments which were falsely given the coveted AAA rating were later downgraded to junk status. Goldman et al. even started their own commodities exchange, have you never heard of ICE and how it was able to artificially manipulate the market and raise the global cost of oil? http://seekingalpha.com/article/172797-the-global-oil-scam-50-times-bigger-than-madoff. And you think the unions are the ones ripping people off.
Of course the pathetic financial reform written by the dems, and chastised by the repubs will do absolutely nothing to preclude another financial meltdown from occurring again. Both parties are bought and paid for by those who enjoy having our reps nuzzle their goldmans sack.
The investigation -- which reviewed hundreds of emails and interviews with officials at rating agencies -- revealed a world of overwhelmed analysts who didn't have enough data about securities they were rating and were under pressure from investment banks such as Goldman Sachs Group Inc. /quotes/comstock/13*!gs/quotes/nls/gs (GS 163.81, +0.03, +0.02%) to issue good ratings for complex securities that were at the heart of the financial crisis.
Goldman settled and admitted no wrong doing. That is often the best case when dealing with bloodthirsty thugs with guns (Obama administration).
Did you know that you have to voluntarily
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repteur
Stranger

Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 5
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14044061 - 02/28/11 06:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Show me a man or women who is union. I will show you and man and women who can support there family. Unfortunately. The Republicans want everyone to work for walmart wages.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14044070 - 02/28/11 06:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Yeah, it also encourages people to go to the doctor for stupid crap, raising costs, as well as lessens the effects of prohibitions on medical care and drugs outside of the goverment's whims
Most unions I've ever been involved with didn't have 'insurance'. We have a benefit fund that we pay into, and the employers also deduct a certain amount from our pay to go into the fund. Medical bills are then paid directly from that fund. It's far more efficient than insurance where the insurance company has a burden to the stockholders to turn a profit.
Quote:
johnm214 said: The union I was in had a bunch of welfare queens who weighed more than me (and I'm a tall guy) waddling around doing pretty much nothing.
I worked out of various IBEW locals over the last 30 years, and was a general foreman or superintendent for the last ten years before 'retiring'. I can't count the number of guys I fired. It was as simple as saying, "go back to the hall". No questions asked. I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions. If someone is lazy on the job, he's as likely to get his ass kicked in the parking lot as fired. Either way, problem solved. RR
Too bad that isn't the case with public unions. Nor was it the case with autoworker unions.
Trade unions are different. They get hired by the job. Not that they're anything but bullshit too. I never even considered joining one. Total corrupt crap.
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despisedicon
Stranger

Registered: 06/16/06
Posts: 8,361
Loc:
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: repteur]
#14044215 - 02/28/11 06:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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repteur said: Show me a man or women who is union. I will show you and man and women who can support there family. Unfortunately. The Republicans want everyone to work for walmart wages.
Unfortunately, some unions are the exact opposite of virtuous. I honor your support for the U.S. working men and women but you aren't paying enough attention if you don't think some are screwing the same people they seek to protect. Just sayin.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: repteur]
#14044242 - 02/28/11 06:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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repteur said: Show me a man or women who is union. I will show you and man and women who can support there family. Unfortunately. The Republicans want everyone to work for walmart wages.
Im in a union, against my will as a requirement of my employment, and make under 9.50 an hour. Could I support my family with that? Probably, but I sure dont need the union to do that.
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argg
Stranger


Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 4,848
Loc: Nigeria
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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I am happy paying dues and having access to a great union training program. I think the right wing media blasts all unions equally while trade unions like the one I am in generate superior workers that not only compete but blow the non union workers out of the water. I understand that some of the unions that overprotect assembly line jobs got out of hand while the economy was fat but that has come to an end and non union jobs that can compete can and will do better if that works out.
To use legislation to end unions is wrong IMO as there is no need for it. If the union gets to fat and does not do its job it will die on its own. The right wing media is just the soap box of the rich trying to get richer on the backs of the hardworking that have a right to organize if they choose. If the owners of the company don't like it fire them and move to china and mexico. If the employees demand so much the owners will move the company its their fault but even non union manufacturing jobs have sailed overseas regardless of unions.Labor there is that cheap over there the piddily difference of unions versus not union makes little difference in that. Unless the USA goes back to slaves union or not if you manufacture stuff at work you are fucked.
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever



Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 33,222
Loc: the city of dis
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14044430 - 02/28/11 07:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
jimbotron said: Have you ever received overtime pay?
No. Didn't pay it either.Quote:
Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.
No it came from the textbook of lazy fucks getting more for not much. Since it isn't in the Constitution why the fuck should the government be involved telling private citizens what they should pay?Quote:
I've got a one word explanation as to the origins of overtime pay (not to mention the weekend), but I'm genuinely curious as to how the hardcore "unions = cancer" people think it developed. Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?
It developed when they got greedy and destroyed companies. Also the grotesque increase in public sector compensation.Quote:
On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?
Compulsory OT pay? Yes. Voluntary OT pay? No. Except in emergencies I don't think employers should be able to compel OT work.
you know what else isn't in the constitution: CORPORATIONS
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Taco Chef]
#14044455 - 02/28/11 07:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
novumorganum said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
jimbotron said: Have you ever received overtime pay?
No. Didn't pay it either.Quote:
Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.
No it came from the textbook of lazy fucks getting more for not much. Since it isn't in the Constitution why the fuck should the government be involved telling private citizens what they should pay?Quote:
I've got a one word explanation as to the origins of overtime pay (not to mention the weekend), but I'm genuinely curious as to how the hardcore "unions = cancer" people think it developed. Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?
It developed when they got greedy and destroyed companies. Also the grotesque increase in public sector compensation.Quote:
On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?
Compulsory OT pay? Yes. Voluntary OT pay? No. Except in emergencies I don't think employers should be able to compel OT work.
you know what else isn't in the constitution: CORPORATIONS
That's because they're not part of the government.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
#14044459 - 02/28/11 07:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
argg said: I am happy paying dues and having access to a great union training program. I think the right wing media blasts all unions equally while trade unions like the one I am in generate superior workers that not only compete but blow the non union workers out of the water. I understand that some of the unions that overprotect assembly line jobs got out of hand while the economy was fat but that has come to an end and non union jobs that can compete can and will do better if that works out.
That isn't my experience with unions. All these trades have better non-union workers. Electricians Plumbers HVAC Carpenters Laborers
Quote:
To use legislation to end unions is wrong IMO as there is no need for it. If the union gets to fat and does not do its job it will die on its own. The right wing media is just the soap box of the rich trying to get richer on the backs of the hardworking that have a right to organize if they choose. If the owners of the company don't like it fire them and move to china and mexico. If the employees demand so much the owners will move the company its their fault but even non union manufacturing jobs have sailed overseas regardless of unions.Labor there is that cheap over there the piddily difference of unions versus not union makes little difference in that. Unless the USA goes back to slaves union or not if you manufacture stuff at work you are fucked.
They used legislation to create them so they can use legislation to tell them to fuck off. And for all the babbling bullshit about union busting in Wisconsin the fact is that the bulk of what they are doing is allowing union members to choose whether to be in a union, what union should they be in and whether they want to pay dues. The unions in question are anti-choice
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Net
Official Mr Shoebat Lackey



Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 32
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14045301 - 02/28/11 09:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
argg said: I am happy paying dues and having access to a great union training program. I think the right wing media blasts all unions equally while trade unions like the one I am in generate superior workers that not only compete but blow the non union workers out of the water. I understand that some of the unions that overprotect assembly line jobs got out of hand while the economy was fat but that has come to an end and non union jobs that can compete can and will do better if that works out.
That isn't my experience with unions. All these trades have better non-union workers. Electricians Plumbers HVAC Carpenters Laborers
Quote:
To use legislation to end unions is wrong IMO as there is no need for it. If the union gets to fat and does not do its job it will die on its own. The right wing media is just the soap box of the rich trying to get richer on the backs of the hardworking that have a right to organize if they choose. If the owners of the company don't like it fire them and move to china and mexico. If the employees demand so much the owners will move the company its their fault but even non union manufacturing jobs have sailed overseas regardless of unions.Labor there is that cheap over there the piddily difference of unions versus not union makes little difference in that. Unless the USA goes back to slaves union or not if you manufacture stuff at work you are fucked.
They used legislation to create them so they can use legislation to tell them to fuck off. And for all the babbling bullshit about union busting in Wisconsin the fact is that the bulk of what they are doing is allowing union members to choose whether to be in a union, what union should they be in and whether they want to pay dues. The unions in question are anti-choice
That was in their contract. You know, the one the management agreed to and now wants to weasel out of with unpopular legislation.
So much for contracts when they don't support your political views, eh?
-------------------- “In all institutions from which the cold wind of open criticism is excluded, an innocent corruption begins to grow like a mushroom - for example, in senates and learned societies” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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ChelleLaBelle
Wicked Witch of the Midwest



Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Missouri
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Net]
#14045346 - 02/28/11 09:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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You know they campaigned hard for that union support. I bet the majority of union workers vote exactly as they are told to vote.
Problem now is the union has the itchy back and no politician is stepping up to scratch.
--------------------
If this were a movie, would you be a character in it? Or just an extra?
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Atomsk
King of the Space Pirates

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 34
Last seen: 13 years, 7 days
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14046138 - 02/28/11 11:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
argg said: I am happy paying dues and having access to a great union training program. I think the right wing media blasts all unions equally while trade unions like the one I am in generate superior workers that not only compete but blow the non union workers out of the water. I understand that some of the unions that overprotect assembly line jobs got out of hand while the economy was fat but that has come to an end and non union jobs that can compete can and will do better if that works out.
That isn't my experience with unions. All these trades have better non-union workers. Electricians Plumbers HVAC Carpenters Laborers
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To use legislation to end unions is wrong IMO as there is no need for it. If the union gets to fat and does not do its job it will die on its own. The right wing media is just the soap box of the rich trying to get richer on the backs of the hardworking that have a right to organize if they choose. If the owners of the company don't like it fire them and move to china and mexico. If the employees demand so much the owners will move the company its their fault but even non union manufacturing jobs have sailed overseas regardless of unions.Labor there is that cheap over there the piddily difference of unions versus not union makes little difference in that. Unless the USA goes back to slaves union or not if you manufacture stuff at work you are fucked.
They used legislation to create them so they can use legislation to tell them to fuck off. And for all the babbling bullshit about union busting in Wisconsin the fact is that the bulk of what they are doing is allowing union members to choose whether to be in a union, what union should they be in and whether they want to pay dues. The unions in question are anti-choice
Dont forget eliminating collective bargaining rights.
Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Atomsk]
#14047303 - 03/01/11 08:00 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Dont forget eliminating collective bargaining rights
Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?
That is not the case though.
Many, many successful and important careers are had by people who personally negotiated their salary and benefits. Teachers should be the same. One size fits all doesnt work. Let each individual bargain for compensation relative to their own sills and abilities. Its not just how burger flippers get jobs, its also how bankers, scientists, managers, engineers, etc. all get jobs.
Monopolies are bad for innovation and efficiency. In this case, the teachers union is a monopoly on labor which is bad for students and education.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Net]
#14047703 - 03/01/11 10:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Net said:
That was in their contract. You know, the one the management agreed to and now wants to weasel out of with unpopular legislation.
contract expires in march, I'd simply refuse to renew the contract, call in a bunch of scabs and tell the union to fuck off to california and since the unions are already in violation of the no strike agreement they certainly dont need a renewal on the contract they cant honor
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Atomsk]
#14047709 - 03/01/11 10:10 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Atomsk said: Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?
really, what's a union done to benefit education?
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever



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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14047798 - 03/01/11 10:27 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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A unionized public employee, a Tea Partier, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table sits a plate of a dozen cookies. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea partier, and says, "Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie." --M. Luziett
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Atomsk]
#14048553 - 03/01/11 01:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Atomsk said:
Dont forget eliminating collective bargaining rights.
Why do union members (approx 12% of the working population) have rights the rest do not? Answer, "they don't". Some people are not more equal than others, Napolean.Quote:
Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?
And yet you are comfortable with them having less accountability than burger flippers?
The Wisconsin bill maintains collective bargaining rights for wages. Teachers and union government worker wages have risen much faster than private sector workers. That costs everybody else (88% of the workers) more money, either in higher taxes, fewer services or higher costs of goods. The union workforce is a screwing to everybody not in a union.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14048578 - 03/01/11 01:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Prisoner#1 said:
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Atomsk said: Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?
really, what's a union done to benefit education?
Indeed. We were told that paying teachers more would give us better teachers which would lead to better educated children. This experiment has run for about 30 some years. The results do not support any conclusion that paying more money to teachers improves educational results.
Aside from the amount of money being squandered there is also the pervasive corrupting effect that unoions have on the ability of administrators to get rid of the absolute shitbags I wouldn't want my child to share a bus with let alone a classroom. But unions fight tooth and nail to protect their jobs. Unions are not and have never been about the customer. They are just dirty greedheads who would just as soon cornhole you as spare you a dime.
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snoot
look alive ∞




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Re: To all the union haters [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14050232 - 03/01/11 06:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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ChuangTzu said:
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RogerRabbit said: I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions.
Whatever union Boeing employees are members of has Boeing in contracts that severely limit their ability to fire any union employees (which by contract is pretty much all hourly employees). Firing can only be done on a seniority basis. That is, only the last person hired can be fired. If two people were hired on the same day, they can only be fired in reverse alphabetical order--I shit you not. It is possible to fire out of seniority order, but only in the case of three disciplinary actions in a six month period, or one very very severe infraction. In practice, out of seniority firing almost never occurs.
Apparently the union makes Boeing jobs so cushy that once they do get laid off, nobody will hire them back once they see that they worked for Boeing because they know that if they get recalled, they will return to their old jobs.
I'm envious.
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∞ I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity. - Simone de Beauvoir -
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