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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14036292 - 02/27/11 02:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Poor little baby can't find another company to work for?  Awwwwwwwwwww. 





What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap?  Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
    #14036366 - 02/27/11 02:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Poor little baby can't find another company to work for?  Awwwwwwwwwww. 





What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap?  Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.



Right.  You have a future in fantasy literature. 

So since jobs are scarce you think increased unionization creates more jobs?  Do you know who pays for the union benefits?  Everybody.  You know who gets union benefits?  Only union members.  Unionization screws everybody not in a union.  Which is by far most people.  Then there is the corrupting factor involved in having both sides of the public sector negotiating table beholden to one side.  Say, do you know who owns a lot of those private sector corporations you hate?  Union pension funds.

It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch.  It was the social engineers helping out to too great an extent losers, ne'erdowells and scam artists.  Would there be a problem if bums repaid the money they borrowed?  Nope.


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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14036662 - 02/27/11 03:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Poor little baby can't find another company to work for?  Awwwwwwwwwww. 





What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap?  Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.



Right.  You have a future in fantasy literature. 

So since jobs are scarce you think increased unionization creates more jobs?  Do you know who pays for the union benefits?  Everybody.  You know who gets union benefits?  Only union members.  Unionization screws everybody not in a union.  Which is by far most people.  Then there is the corrupting factor involved in having both sides of the public sector negotiating table beholden to one side.  Say, do you know who owns a lot of those private sector corporations you hate?  Union pension funds.

It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch.  It was the social engineers helping out to too great an extent losers, ne'erdowells and scam artists.  Would there be a problem if bums repaid the money they borrowed?  Nope.




So your argument is that shareholders have the right to organize via management, but labor has no right to organize at all?

Am I reading this right?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14036667 - 02/27/11 03:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch. 




Oh, no, Goldman Sachs plundering AIG through manipulated margin calls didn't hurt a thing.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
    #14036741 - 02/27/11 04:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch. 




Oh, no, Goldman Sachs plundering AIG through manipulated margin calls didn't hurt a thing.



Whatever occurred between Goldman and AIG was a private business transaction.  Goldman purchased insurance from AIG.  AIG was responsible to honor their obligations.  I know the entire concept of contracts and obligations are foreign to you but that is the foundation of all business.  And it had nothing to do with manipulating margin calls.  Your ignorance is staggering.

Were you an AIG shareholder?


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Invisiblephoxyilluminata
Stranger
Female
Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14036746 - 02/27/11 04:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I know the entire concept of contracts and obligations are foreign to you but that is the foundation of all business.



:laugh2:

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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14036767 - 02/27/11 04:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Whatever occurred between Goldman and AIG was a private business transaction.  Goldman purchased insurance from AIG.  AIG was responsible to honor their obligations.




Not what I'm talking about.

http://moneymorning.com/2008/09/22/credit-default-swaps-2/

Goldman Sachs was using margin calls to milk AIG by intentionally dumping CDOs for more than a year before the crash.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
    #14036786 - 02/27/11 04:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Poor little baby can't find another company to work for?  Awwwwwwwwwww. 





What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap?  Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.



Right.  You have a future in fantasy literature. 

So since jobs are scarce you think increased unionization creates more jobs?  Do you know who pays for the union benefits?  Everybody.  You know who gets union benefits?  Only union members.  Unionization screws everybody not in a union.  Which is by far most people.  Then there is the corrupting factor involved in having both sides of the public sector negotiating table beholden to one side.  Say, do you know who owns a lot of those private sector corporations you hate?  Union pension funds.

It isn't capitalists who fucked the pooch.  It was the social engineers helping out to too great an extent losers, ne'erdowells and scam artists.  Would there be a problem if bums repaid the money they borrowed?  Nope.




So your argument is that shareholders have the right to organize via management, but labor has no right to organize at all?

Am I reading this right?



Labor in the private sector has the right to get away with whatever it can get away with.  I have no obligation to buy stock in a company that let's their workforce destroy them.  For instance, I would never consider buying stock in GM, Chrysler and Ford.  Shareholders have the right to tell labor to fuck off any time they want.  They own the company.  Private sector labor has the right to try to get whatever they can.  They also have the right to fuck off and die.  The purpose of a company is to make money for the owners.  Labor is a means to that end.  Providing jobs is not the purpose of a business. 

Do you know who pays the price for unions?  Everybody.  Business margins are generally pretty tight.  If an industry pays more because of unions their product costs more.  Fewer people buy their product.  Fewer products are produced.  Fewer people work producing those products.  Unions are by definition protectionist.

Finally, how do you feel about compulsory union membership?  I find it to be fascist.


--------------------

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
    #14036808 - 02/27/11 04:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They have outlived their utility.




Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?



Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.




Oh, yes, because one lone working man can protect himself from any given corporation.

That's BRILLIANT, sir!  Why didn't they think of this in 1904?





This seems to be a pretty blatant straw man argument.  It seems to me zappa simply stated that he does not expect government to protect the workers rights, he expects them to protect their own interests (a position I agree with, any system which divests the rights of a class 'for their own good' and gives them to another for safekeeping, is no different fundamentally from a system which simply removes those rights entirely without paying lipservice to the notion of 'helping people'.)  You in turn argue against the proposition that one lone man can defend himself from any given coporation.


What the hell does that have to do with anything?  Your argument seems calculated for emotional appeal rather than any logical point. 

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Poor little baby can't find another company to work for?  Awwwwwwwwwww. 





What color is the sky in the world you live in, Zap?  Because here, it's blue, and jobs are a little scarce on the ground...Made that way by the very bankers and capitalists you idolize.





Ok, so you've alleged this condition to be so.  What is your point?  You seem to make bare claims without any clear connection to the issue at hand.  How is the relative lack of available positionsn at a given time of any relevance?

The only unstated argument I could imagine is that government should protect those fortunate enough to have a job in this situation of difficult employment you've alleged to exist, rather than those who desperately need a job.

Is this not terribly selfish and arbitrary?  Far from helping the havenots, you ensure they cannot find employment as even those few positions you allege to exist are protected by government intervention and unlikely to become vacant.  Rather than helping the people as you claim, you seem to favor helping a particular class, not the lower class mind you.

Seems similar to the medicare part D arguments and the whole healthcare debate that  people claim to be favoring for charitable reasons.  They fail to explain how they justify providing these relatively extravagant benerfits to a select class when far more basic needs such as shelter, clothing, and food are not provided by government.  What it seems to me, is that these people are just greedy- they simply want wealth and are using the charitable argument as one of convenience.  If they really cared of the less fortunate they'd start at the bottom of the socioeconomic latter, rather than arbitrarily selecting their class to be the one of benefit and not giving a damn about those worse off.

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Invisiblephoxyilluminata
Stranger
Female
Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14036809 - 02/27/11 04:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Labor in the private sector has the right to get away with whatever it can get away with.  I have no obligation to buy stock in a company that let's their workforce destroy them.  For instance, I would never consider buying stock in GM, Chrysler and Ford.  Shareholders have the right to tell labor to fuck off any time they want.  They own the company.  Private sector labor has the right to try to get whatever they can.  They also have the right to fuck off and die.  The purpose of a company is to make money for the owners.  Labor is a means to that end.  Providing jobs is not the purpose of a business. 

Do you know who pays the price for unions?  Everybody.  Business margins are generally pretty tight.  If an industry pays more because of unions their product costs more.  Fewer people buy their product.  Fewer products are produced.  Fewer people work producing those products.  Unions are by definition protectionist.

Finally, how do you feel about compulsory union membership?  I find it to be fascist.




Wow. There isn't an emoticon in the world to express the sheer amount of hilarity.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
    #14036908 - 02/27/11 04:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Whatever occurred between Goldman and AIG was a private business transaction.  Goldman purchased insurance from AIG.  AIG was responsible to honor their obligations.




Not what I'm talking about.

http://moneymorning.com/2008/09/22/credit-default-swaps-2/

Goldman Sachs was using margin calls to milk AIG by intentionally dumping CDOs for more than a year before the crash.



Interesting link.  Not mentioned anywhere in it were the words "Goldman Sachs".  So Goldman hedged against a default by the insurer they bought policy from.  Although they still lost money on the deal they lost less than they would have.  Good for them.  What a stunning development, Goldman is smarter than somebody else.  How evil.


--------------------

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Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: To all the union haters [Re: phoxyilluminata]
    #14036948 - 02/27/11 04:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

appeals to incredulity aren't helpful towards resolving this difference of views.

I note that the opponents of zappa's views seem unable to address his argument squarely.  Is this because you've got nothing?

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Invisiblephoxyilluminata
Stranger
Female
Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 102
Re: To all the union haters [Re: johnm214]
    #14036986 - 02/27/11 04:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
appeals to incredulity aren't helpful towards resolving this difference of views.

I note that the opponents of zappa's views seem unable to address his argument squarely.  Is this because you've got nothing?



Who wants to resolve a difference of views? I find it hilarious.

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InvisibleTherian
Stranger
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Registered: 03/04/09
Posts: 684
Re: To all the union haters [Re: phoxyilluminata]
    #14042981 - 02/28/11 03:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

So Goldman hedged against a default by the insurer they bought policy from.  Although they still lost money on the deal they lost less than they would have.  Good for them.  What a stunning development, Goldman is smarter than somebody else.  How evil.




Right, haven't we already heard the "smartest guys in the room argument".http://www.marketwatch.com/story/goldman-charged-with-fraud-over-paulson-cdo-trade-2010-04-16. By Goldmans OWN ADMISSION they stated that they misled (flat out lied) to investors. These smart guys were levied with the largest fine ever by the SEC. They paid over half a billion dollars in fines. They used banker thuggery and deception to get the ratings agencies they were paying to lie about the quality of their investments and how the portfolios were put together.  http://seekingalpha.com/article/200757-goldman-sachs-vs-the-rating-agencies-models

97% of all the investments which were falsely given the coveted AAA rating were later downgraded to junk status. Goldman et al. even started their own commodities exchange, have you never heard of ICE and how it was able to artificially manipulate the market and raise the global cost of oil? http://seekingalpha.com/article/172797-the-global-oil-scam-50-times-bigger-than-madoff. And you think the unions are the ones ripping people off.

Of course the pathetic financial reform written by the dems, and chastised by the repubs will do absolutely nothing to preclude another financial meltdown from occurring again. Both parties are bought and paid for by those who enjoy having our reps nuzzle their goldmans sack.

The investigation -- which reviewed hundreds of emails and interviews with officials at rating agencies -- revealed a world of overwhelmed analysts who didn't have enough data about securities they were rating and were under pressure from investment banks such as Goldman Sachs Group Inc. /quotes/comstock/13*!gs/quotes/nls/gs (GS 163.81, +0.03, +0.02%) to issue good ratings for complex securities that were at the heart of the financial crisis.

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OfflineRogerRabbitV
Bans for Pleasure
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Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: johnm214]
    #14043486 - 02/28/11 04:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Yeah, it also encourages people to go to the doctor for stupid crap, raising costs, as well as lessens the effects of prohibitions on medical care and drugs outside of the goverment's whims




Most unions I've ever been involved with didn't have 'insurance'.  We have a benefit fund that we pay into, and the employers also deduct a certain amount from our pay to go into the fund.  Medical bills are then paid directly from that fund.  It's far more efficient than insurance where the insurance company has a burden to the stockholders to turn a profit.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
The union I was in had a bunch of welfare queens who weighed more than me (and I'm a tall guy) waddling around doing pretty much nothing.





I worked out of various IBEW locals over the last 30 years, and was a general foreman or superintendent for the last ten years before 'retiring'.  I can't count the number of guys I fired.  It was as simple as saying, "go back to the hall".  No questions asked.  I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions.  If someone is lazy on the job, he's as likely to get his ass kicked in the parking lot as fired.  Either way, problem solved.
RR


--------------------
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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: To all the union haters [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14043557 - 02/28/11 05:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Most unions I've ever been involved with didn't have 'insurance'.  We have a benefit fund that we pay into, and the employers also deduct a certain amount from our pay to go into the fund.  Medical bills are then paid directly from that fund.  It's far more efficient than insurance where the insurance company has a burden to the stockholders to turn a profit.





union I was in back in the day had the same thing, you had to fight them
tooth and nail to get them to pay your medical, one guy's wife had cancer,
almost bankrupted the fund because apparently the union also used it for
petty cash

Quote:

I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions




it really depends on the union, the UAW and RWDSU are all about protecting
the company while keeping slackers on the job, tried to vote out RWDSU but
it would have cut us to minimum wage for a year, lost any benefits and
what they wanted to call insurance

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: To all the union haters [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14043899 - 02/28/11 05:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

Yeah, it also encourages people to go to the doctor for stupid crap, raising costs, as well as lessens the effects of prohibitions on medical care and drugs outside of the goverment's whims




Most unions I've ever been involved with didn't have 'insurance'.  We have a benefit fund that we pay into, and the employers also deduct a certain amount from our pay to go into the fund.  Medical bills are then paid directly from that fund.  It's far more efficient than insurance where the insurance company has a burden to the stockholders to turn a profit.





I wasn't implying the union I was a part of or unions in general do have insurance, only that they often include such healthcare benefits as requirements for contracting with the employer.  This was the case in my instance.  In my case the situation was similar to what you specify, though a bit more formal:  the employer is required to cover the qualifying members and used an insurance company to administer the benefits (Aetna).  The company then paid those claims plus the compensation for the insurance company to process them.  I imagine his only works with large companies, others would require third-party insurance.

Essentially I agree with your criticism of insurance, and throw in medicare/aid as well.  Its no conicidence that almost all practitioners charge an astronomical amount of money for every service and then generally all accept the same fee from those in the right "club" (the medicare negotiated rate).  Ends up functioning like an illegal trust.  Pretty anticompetitive if you ask me, and a good argument against federal healthcare administration. At least state administered programs would compete with each other rather than forming a single entity that drives costs up and competition down.




Quote:

Quote:

johnm214 said:
The union I was in had a bunch of welfare queens who weighed more than me (and I'm a tall guy) waddling around doing pretty much nothing.





I worked out of various IBEW locals over the last 30 years, and was a general foreman or superintendent for the last ten years before 'retiring'.  I can't count the number of guys I fired.  It was as simple as saying, "go back to the hall".  No questions asked.  I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions.  If someone is lazy on the job, he's as likely to get his ass kicked in the parking lot as fired.  Either way, problem solved.
RR




I was a member of the International Assoc. of Machinists, working a part time job.  The members sure as hell were lazy, though I can't in good conciousness neccesarily identify the union as the culprit.  Management simply was absent and ignorant, and not particularly concerned with our work as they either didn't know how to do it or didn't care as it was outside their area.

I sure wish we had someone like you to whip the people into shape where I worked.  We had no parking lot ass kickings or any of that.  The result was that you couldn't get as many hours because the union insisted on jobs going in order of seniority rather than merit, and the contracted overtime meant people like me couldn't take on extra hours as the employer didn't want to pay it.  The people hodling their jobs took their time doing anything, secure in the knowledge that they couldn't be fired (union would protect them) if they a) showed up, b) clocked in an out, c) didn't steal or take overtime.

It really drove down morale as nobody really cared about getting the job done and hence there was no point to even coming to work.  Additonally, getting paid a wage that had nothign to do with your competence, work ethic, or value you gave to the company, wasn't fun.  You had the opportunity to advance, yes, but that was ONLY per seniority, not merit.  Not cool.




Quote:

phoxyilluminata said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
appeals to incredulity aren't helpful towards resolving this difference of views.

I note that the opponents of zappa's views seem unable to address his argument squarely.  Is this because you've got nothing?



Who wants to resolve a difference of views? I find it hilarious.





I want to resolve a difference of views, and i presume others do as well.  Posters on this message board are granted the courtesy of presuming their good faith.  If your clarifying that you are not posting in good faith and without an attempt to reconcile the various arguments, then the administration has remedies for this.  Either way, if you aren't posting with the goal of encouraging intelligent discussion of the issue, you don't belong here- try the pub or a general-interest social forum.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14043920 - 02/28/11 05:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions. 




Whatever union Boeing employees are members of has Boeing in contracts that severely limit their ability to fire any union employees (which by contract is pretty much all hourly employees).  Firing can only be done on a seniority basis.  That is, only the last person hired can be fired.  If two people were hired on the same day, they can only be fired in reverse alphabetical order--I shit you not.  It is possible to fire out of seniority order, but only in the case of three disciplinary actions in a six month period, or one very very severe infraction.  In practice, out of seniority firing almost never occurs.

Apparently the union makes Boeing jobs so cushy that once they do get laid off, nobody will hire them back once they see that they worked for Boeing because they know that if they get recalled, they will return to their old jobs.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: Therian]
    #14044042 - 02/28/11 06:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Therian said:
Quote:

So Goldman hedged against a default by the insurer they bought policy from.  Although they still lost money on the deal they lost less than they would have.  Good for them.  What a stunning development, Goldman is smarter than somebody else.  How evil.




Right, haven't we already heard the "smartest guys in the room argument".http://www.marketwatch.com/story/goldman-charged-with-fraud-over-paulson-cdo-trade-2010-04-16. By Goldmans OWN ADMISSION they stated that they misled (flat out lied) to investors. These smart guys were levied with the largest fine ever by the SEC. They paid over half a billion dollars in fines. They used banker thuggery and deception to get the ratings agencies they were paying to lie about the quality of their investments and how the portfolios were put together.  http://seekingalpha.com/article/200757-goldman-sachs-vs-the-rating-agencies-models

97% of all the investments which were falsely given the coveted AAA rating were later downgraded to junk status. Goldman et al. even started their own commodities exchange, have you never heard of ICE and how it was able to artificially manipulate the market and raise the global cost of oil? http://seekingalpha.com/article/172797-the-global-oil-scam-50-times-bigger-than-madoff. And you think the unions are the ones ripping people off.

Of course the pathetic financial reform written by the dems, and chastised by the repubs will do absolutely nothing to preclude another financial meltdown from occurring again. Both parties are bought and paid for by those who enjoy having our reps nuzzle their goldmans sack.

The investigation -- which reviewed hundreds of emails and interviews with officials at rating agencies -- revealed a world of overwhelmed analysts who didn't have enough data about securities they were rating and were under pressure from investment banks such as Goldman Sachs Group Inc. /quotes/comstock/13*!gs/quotes/nls/gs (GS 163.81, +0.03, +0.02%) to issue good ratings for complex securities that were at the heart of the financial crisis.



Goldman settled and admitted no wrong doing.  That is often the best case when dealing with bloodthirsty thugs with guns (Obama administration).

Did you know that you have to voluntarily


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Offlinerepteur
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14044061 - 02/28/11 06:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Show me a man or women who is union. I will show you and man and women who can support there family. Unfortunately. The Republicans want everyone to work for walmart wages.

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RandalFlagg 1,440 34 11/22/05 05:09 AM
by domite
* Abandonement of Unions nugsarenice 934 4 11/10/01 11:55 PM
by ElPrimo
* Labor Unions Anonymous 662 5 11/10/03 07:47 PM
by PsiloKitten
* North American Union - End of the US as we know it.
( 1 2 3 all )
daussaulit 4,702 53 07/08/06 11:58 PM
by Economist
* State of the Union address 1992 - hypocrisy/dishonesty 2004 Xochitl 1,009 7 04/29/04 11:00 PM
by silversoul7
* For You Gun Haters
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Sinistar 14,422 211 02/09/03 05:18 AM
by Evolving
* Governments in need of regime change.
( 1 2 all )
LSDempire 3,351 38 08/29/05 07:21 AM
by LSDempire
* Labor Unions Suck ASS
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Fucknuckle 3,829 30 08/01/06 09:53 AM
by Alex213

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