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jimbotron
Patty-Cake Enthusiast



Registered: 02/24/09
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To all the union haters
#14020107 - 02/24/11 01:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Have you ever received overtime pay?
Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.
I've got a one word explanation as to the origins of overtime pay (not to mention the weekend), but I'm genuinely curious as to how the hardcore "unions = cancer" people think it developed. Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?
On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?
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argg
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: jimbotron]
#14020163 - 02/24/11 02:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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my union has great training. The union fees go towards an excellent facility to keep people learning and safe. Some unions may be really crooked but the union I am in if you are a lazy sac that does nothing you will get fired and blacklisted. I hear all the horror stories and just don't see it from my house. I hear all sorts of union hate and I think its people jealous that they never where good enough to get in one.the union I am in would test 5-10k people a year and let maybe a few hundred in.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: jimbotron]
#14020183 - 02/24/11 02:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
jimbotron said: Have you ever received overtime pay?
No. Didn't pay it either.Quote:
Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.
No it came from the textbook of lazy fucks getting more for not much. Since it isn't in the Constitution why the fuck should the government be involved telling private citizens what they should pay?Quote:
I've got a one word explanation as to the origins of overtime pay (not to mention the weekend), but I'm genuinely curious as to how the hardcore "unions = cancer" people think it developed. Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?
It developed when they got greedy and destroyed companies. Also the grotesque increase in public sector compensation.Quote:
On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?
Compulsory OT pay? Yes. Voluntary OT pay? No. Except in emergencies I don't think employers should be able to compel OT work.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
#14020187 - 02/24/11 02:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
argg said: my union has great training. The union fees go towards an excellent facility to keep people learning and safe. Some unions may be really crooked but the union I am in if you are a lazy sac that does nothing you will get fired and blacklisted. I hear all the horror stories and just don't see it from my house. I hear all sorts of union hate and I think its people jealous that they never where good enough to get in one.the union I am in would test 5-10k people a year and let maybe a few hundred in.
What union?
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: jimbotron]
#14020201 - 02/24/11 02:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Private sector unions and public employee unions are not the same thing.
Private sector unions are - for the most part - less harmful to the economy than public employee unions. It is true that private sector unions do raise prices, reduce profitability, reduce the return on pension funds which have union businesses in their portfolio, and create a bunch of other well-understood negative effects on the economy, but even all those bad effects added together are arguably relatively small beans compared to the damage done by PEUs.
Phred
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argg
Stranger


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14020215 - 02/24/11 02:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
argg said: my union has great training. The union fees go towards an excellent facility to keep people learning and safe. Some unions may be really crooked but the union I am in if you are a lazy sac that does nothing you will get fired and blacklisted. I hear all the horror stories and just don't see it from my house. I hear all sorts of union hate and I think its people jealous that they never where good enough to get in one.the union I am in would test 5-10k people a year and let maybe a few hundred in.
What union?
pipefitters
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
#14020252 - 02/24/11 02:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good trade. Yeah, you can't fuck around with that. Incompetent pipefitters get people killed. Of course, that doesn't have anything to do with unionism. Could just as easily be addressed with licensing and certification. Like with welders
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
#14020253 - 02/24/11 02:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I base my negative views on Unions to my experience of being in involved with two of them. It could well be there's some great ones out there but it seems that organized crime has invaded the big ones or many of them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MelloRed


Registered: 02/09/11
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Icelander]
#14020527 - 02/24/11 03:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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My company put me on salary so they can make me work 50+ w/ the same pay. Beats not having a job though. Unions have their place and the workplace reforms that have happened over the last 140ish years are due to unions or those fighting to organize.
That said, today many unions have companies/our government by the balls. They force companies to keep employees that are worthless and force them to go through miles of red tape to innovate and add/change job responsibilities. To give an example, when I did computer support there were some companies I couldn't ship parts to in the NE for the end user to install. Not even a keyboard or mouse. Reason is their job responsibilities didn't include computer repair. The employee didn't even have a choice, the company had to ensure they didn't. That's just fucking stupid. Many require employees to join if they want to work at a place, have huge dues, and do very little for people.
Unions have their place, but IMO they are more detrimental than helpful in today's economy with the standards the majority of companies follow now. There's a balance that needs to be met.
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zappaisgod
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: MelloRed]
#14020642 - 02/24/11 03:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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They have outlived their utility.
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argg
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14021019 - 02/24/11 04:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
no otherwise they would not be around.
I enjoy knowing that even if the company I might be working for goes belly up due to incompetent bidding or something stupid my retirement plan with the union is safe. I like that I could jump from one place to another and my benefits do not change and if I want to take a few more classes I can and will. I don't understand the union hate until I think about it from management side and see that they want employees to make just enough to eat that day and pay for a tiny apartment. They want to be able to fire you if you do not want to do something that might not be safe or use some rigging gear that is well past worn out. They want to be able to give you next to no benefits or retirement leaving you destitute in your old age after you abuse your body for them. They want to be able to have unlimited funds given to lobbyists for their goals while breaking the only people fighting for the workers, the unions.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
#14021120 - 02/24/11 05:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
argg said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
no otherwise they would not be around.
In case you haven't noticed they pretty much aren't any more except in the public sector.Quote:
I enjoy knowing that even if the company I might be working for goes belly up due to incompetent bidding or something stupid my retirement plan with the union is safe.
Well that is a false security, my friend.Quote:
I
like that I could jump from one place to another and my benefits do not change and if I want to take a few more classes I can and will. I don't understand the union hate until I think about it from management side and see that they want employees to make just enough to eat that day and pay for a tiny apartment.
No, that is a false dichotomy.Quote:
They want to be able to fire you if you do not want to do something that might not be safe or use some rigging gear that is well past worn out. They want to be able to give you next to no benefits or retirement leaving you destitute in your old age after you abuse your body for them. They want to be able to have unlimited funds given to lobbyists for their goals while breaking the only people fighting for the workers, the unions.
As an employer I made sure, in my own self interest, that conditions were safe. Secondly, as an employer and an adult human being I realized that people make choices and that some of their choices may not be wise or forward thinking but it wasn't my business. I gave them money. What they chose to do with it was 100% their business. Imposing a retirement plan they may not want or health insurance they may not want was not my call to make. Many benefits are only suitable to married with 2. What about single people? Or consider gender inequity. Female health care is way more expensive than male health care even discounting pregnancy. What about somebody who would rather structure their own retirement plan? Not my call to make. Unions are just another mechanism to infantilize the populace and take choice away.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14021585 - 02/24/11 06:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Many benefits are only suitable to married with 2. What about single people?
Give me the money and let me decide and I'll come out way ahead. Of course many people would waste that money but that's their problem.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: jimbotron]
#14030103 - 02/26/11 12:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Many benefits are only suitable to married with 2. What about single people?
Give me the money and let me decide and I'll come out way ahead. Of course many people would waste that money but that's their problem.
Yeah, it also encourages people to go to the doctor for stupid crap, raising costs, as well as lessens the effects of prohibitions on medical care and drugs outside of the goverment's whims (unfortunately, such whims seem to be largely determined by the medical lobbying groups and professionals' groups). When your unable to buy your medicine or receive advice without the government's permission (via the 'special people' who given you permission for them), it becomes somewhat less oppressive when you have a generally low-cost (in per instance apparent cost terms) solution via insurance. The relatively-new oppressions such as these in the medical arena would be more widely opposed if they were more directly harming people. The insurance benefits (prepaid medical) probably lessened the harms of these restrictions, allowing them to be instituted by the quasi-fascist regulations that have been advanced in the US, a large amount of which are an effect of the "war on drugs".
The union I was in had a bunch of welfare queens who weighed more than me (and I'm a tall guy) waddling around doing pretty much nothing. There's this guy who worked there who couldn't even afford to pay for heat in the winter, and was on food stamps and all sorts of government care, and the bum decided to have another child with his wife. What an ass- I wish I was compensated as well as them (insurance reimbursments). Just working with people like that brings down morale. If I was paid per the work I actually did, I'd have been making a much better wage and wouldn't have quit.
Quote:
jimbotron said: Have you ever received overtime pay?
Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.
What does teh constitution have to do with anything?
Anyways, how was the result of overtime pay not a result of the free market? Explain that.
Quote:
Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?
They did it because they believed it was in their interest to do it. That's free market economics by definition. I'm a bit confused why you seem to represent unions as a force outside the free market. How do you justify this stance?
Quote:
On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?
No. Its a thing. Bad or good really depends on the circumstances. In the end, its seldom any of my buisness, per se, what a company pays or a worker demands. I'm unsure what the relevance of this is.
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: johnm214]
#14035727 - 02/27/11 12:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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how does the medical system work with free health care in england so well, that differs from our system so much??
ALSO:
this coming summer aren't we do for a possible minimum wage raise again? let me know, thanks
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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TGRR
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14035880 - 02/27/11 01:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR] 1
#14035924 - 02/27/11 01:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?
Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.
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TGRR
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14035955 - 02/27/11 01:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?
Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.
Oh, yes, because one lone working man can protect himself from any given corporation.
That's BRILLIANT, sir! Why didn't they think of this in 1904?
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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Friskies

Registered: 02/27/11
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
#14036125 - 02/27/11 01:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.
Wtf, Are you being serious? Oh but I forgot...
-------------------- Stoner extraordinaire
Edited by Friskies (02/27/11 01:51 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: To all the union haters [Re: TGRR]
#14036141 - 02/27/11 01:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
TGRR said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: They have outlived their utility.
Yes, we can rely on the government to protect the workers now, right?
Maybe as adults they should protect themselves, like everybody else.
Oh, yes, because one lone working man can protect himself from any given corporation.
That's BRILLIANT, sir! Why didn't they think of this in 1904?
Poor little baby can't find another company to work for? Awwwwwwwwwww.
Unions represent less than 10% of private sector workers. I haven't seen all that many chain gangs in the private sector.
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