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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14044070 - 02/28/11 06:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

Yeah, it also encourages people to go to the doctor for stupid crap, raising costs, as well as lessens the effects of prohibitions on medical care and drugs outside of the goverment's whims




Most unions I've ever been involved with didn't have 'insurance'.  We have a benefit fund that we pay into, and the employers also deduct a certain amount from our pay to go into the fund.  Medical bills are then paid directly from that fund.  It's far more efficient than insurance where the insurance company has a burden to the stockholders to turn a profit.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
The union I was in had a bunch of welfare queens who weighed more than me (and I'm a tall guy) waddling around doing pretty much nothing.





I worked out of various IBEW locals over the last 30 years, and was a general foreman or superintendent for the last ten years before 'retiring'.  I can't count the number of guys I fired.  It was as simple as saying, "go back to the hall".  No questions asked.  I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions.  If someone is lazy on the job, he's as likely to get his ass kicked in the parking lot as fired.  Either way, problem solved.
RR




Too bad that isn't the case with public unions.  Nor was it the case with autoworker unions.

Trade unions are different.  They get hired by the job.  Not that they're anything but bullshit too.  I never even considered joining one.  Total corrupt crap.


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Invisibledespisedicon
Stranger

Registered: 06/16/06
Posts: 8,361
Loc: Flag
Re: To all the union haters [Re: repteur]
    #14044215 - 02/28/11 06:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

repteur said:
Show me a man or women who is union. I will show you and man and women who can support there family. Unfortunately. The Republicans want everyone to work for walmart wages.





Unfortunately, some unions are the exact opposite of virtuous. I honor your support for the U.S. working men and women but you aren't paying enough attention if you don't think some are screwing the same people they seek to protect.  Just sayin.  :justdontknow:

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: To all the union haters [Re: repteur]
    #14044242 - 02/28/11 06:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

repteur said:
Show me a man or women who is union. I will show you and man and women who can support there family. Unfortunately. The Republicans want everyone to work for walmart wages.




Im in a union, against my will as a requirement of my employment, and make under 9.50 an hour.  Could I support my family with that?  Probably, but I sure dont need the union to do that.

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Offlineargg
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Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 4,848
Loc: Nigeria
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: despisedicon]
    #14044297 - 02/28/11 06:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I am happy paying dues and having access to a great union training program. I think the right wing media blasts all unions equally while trade unions like the one I am in generate superior workers that not only compete but blow the non union workers out of the water. I understand that some of the unions that overprotect assembly line jobs got out of hand while the economy was fat but that has come to an end and non union jobs that can compete can and will do better if that works out.

To use legislation to end unions is wrong IMO as there is no need for it. If the union gets to fat and does not do its job it will die on its own. The right wing media is just the soap box of the rich trying to get richer on the backs of the hardworking that have a right to organize if they choose. If the owners of the company don't like it fire them and move to china and mexico. If the employees demand so much the owners will move the company its their fault but even non union manufacturing jobs have sailed overseas regardless of unions.Labor there is that cheap over there the piddily difference of unions versus not union makes little difference in that. Unless the USA goes back to slaves union or not if you manufacture stuff at work you are fucked.


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OfflineTaco Chef
I found dead John Cheever
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Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 33,222
Loc: the city of dis
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14044430 - 02/28/11 07:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Have you ever received overtime pay?




No.  Didn't pay it either.
Quote:



Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.




No it came from the textbook of lazy fucks getting more for not much.  Since it isn't in the Constitution why the fuck should the government be involved telling private citizens what they should pay?
Quote:



I've got a one word explanation as to the origins of overtime pay (not to mention the weekend), but I'm genuinely curious as to how the hardcore "unions = cancer" people think it developed. Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?


  It developed when they got greedy and destroyed companies.  Also the grotesque increase in public sector compensation.
Quote:



On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?




Compulsory OT pay?  Yes.  Voluntary OT pay?  No.  Except in emergencies I don't think employers should be able to compel OT work.





you know what else isn't in the constitution: CORPORATIONS


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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: Taco Chef]
    #14044455 - 02/28/11 07:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

novumorganum said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Have you ever received overtime pay?




No.  Didn't pay it either.
Quote:



Did you ever stop and wonder where the "40 hours and you get paid more" rule came from? Hint: it ain't the Constitution and it ain't the free market fairy.




No it came from the textbook of lazy fucks getting more for not much.  Since it isn't in the Constitution why the fuck should the government be involved telling private citizens what they should pay?
Quote:



I've got a one word explanation as to the origins of overtime pay (not to mention the weekend), but I'm genuinely curious as to how the hardcore "unions = cancer" people think it developed. Do you think that companies do it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or what?


  It developed when they got greedy and destroyed companies.  Also the grotesque increase in public sector compensation.
Quote:



On a related note, do you think that overtime pay is a bad thing?




Compulsory OT pay?  Yes.  Voluntary OT pay?  No.  Except in emergencies I don't think employers should be able to compel OT work.





you know what else isn't in the constitution: CORPORATIONS




That's because they're not part of the government.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: argg]
    #14044459 - 02/28/11 07:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

argg said:
I am happy paying dues and having access to a great union training program. I think the right wing media blasts all unions equally while trade unions like the one I am in generate superior workers that not only compete but blow the non union workers out of the water. I understand that some of the unions that overprotect assembly line jobs got out of hand while the economy was fat but that has come to an end and non union jobs that can compete can and will do better if that works out.




That isn't my experience with unions.  All these trades have better non-union workers.
Electricians
Plumbers
HVAC
Carpenters
Laborers

Quote:



To use legislation to end unions is wrong IMO as there is no need for it. If the union gets to fat and does not do its job it will die on its own. The right wing media is just the soap box of the rich trying to get richer on the backs of the hardworking that have a right to organize if they choose. If the owners of the company don't like it fire them and move to china and mexico. If the employees demand so much the owners will move the company its their fault but even non union manufacturing jobs have sailed overseas regardless of unions.Labor there is that cheap over there the piddily difference of unions versus not union makes little difference in that. Unless the USA goes back to slaves union or not if you manufacture stuff at work you are fucked.




They used legislation to create them so they can use legislation to tell them to fuck off.  And for all the babbling bullshit about union busting in Wisconsin the fact is that the bulk of what they are doing is allowing union members to choose whether to be in a union, what union should they be in and whether they want to pay dues.  The unions in question are anti-choice


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OfflineNet
Official Mr Shoebat Lackey
Male


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 32
Last seen: 13 years, 22 days
Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14045301 - 02/28/11 09:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

argg said:
I am happy paying dues and having access to a great union training program. I think the right wing media blasts all unions equally while trade unions like the one I am in generate superior workers that not only compete but blow the non union workers out of the water. I understand that some of the unions that overprotect assembly line jobs got out of hand while the economy was fat but that has come to an end and non union jobs that can compete can and will do better if that works out.




That isn't my experience with unions.  All these trades have better non-union workers.
Electricians
Plumbers
HVAC
Carpenters
Laborers

Quote:



To use legislation to end unions is wrong IMO as there is no need for it. If the union gets to fat and does not do its job it will die on its own. The right wing media is just the soap box of the rich trying to get richer on the backs of the hardworking that have a right to organize if they choose. If the owners of the company don't like it fire them and move to china and mexico. If the employees demand so much the owners will move the company its their fault but even non union manufacturing jobs have sailed overseas regardless of unions.Labor there is that cheap over there the piddily difference of unions versus not union makes little difference in that. Unless the USA goes back to slaves union or not if you manufacture stuff at work you are fucked.




They used legislation to create them so they can use legislation to tell them to fuck off.  And for all the babbling bullshit about union busting in Wisconsin the fact is that the bulk of what they are doing is allowing union members to choose whether to be in a union, what union should they be in and whether they want to pay dues.  The unions in question are anti-choice




That was in their contract. You know, the one the management agreed to and now wants to weasel out of with unpopular legislation.

So much for contracts when they don't support your political views, eh?


--------------------
“In all institutions from which the cold wind of open criticism is excluded, an innocent corruption begins to grow like a mushroom - for example, in senates and learned societies”

—Friedrich Nietzsche

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OfflineChelleLaBelle
Wicked Witch of the Midwest
Female


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Missouri
Last seen: 13 years, 21 days
Re: To all the union haters [Re: Net]
    #14045346 - 02/28/11 09:14 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You know they campaigned hard for that union support.  I bet the majority of union workers vote exactly as they are told to vote.

Problem now is the union has the itchy back and no politician is stepping up to scratch.


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If this were a movie, would you be a character in it? Or just an extra?

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OfflineAtomsk
King of the Space Pirates

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 34
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14046138 - 02/28/11 11:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

argg said:
I am happy paying dues and having access to a great union training program. I think the right wing media blasts all unions equally while trade unions like the one I am in generate superior workers that not only compete but blow the non union workers out of the water. I understand that some of the unions that overprotect assembly line jobs got out of hand while the economy was fat but that has come to an end and non union jobs that can compete can and will do better if that works out.




That isn't my experience with unions.  All these trades have better non-union workers.
Electricians
Plumbers
HVAC
Carpenters
Laborers

Quote:



To use legislation to end unions is wrong IMO as there is no need for it. If the union gets to fat and does not do its job it will die on its own. The right wing media is just the soap box of the rich trying to get richer on the backs of the hardworking that have a right to organize if they choose. If the owners of the company don't like it fire them and move to china and mexico. If the employees demand so much the owners will move the company its their fault but even non union manufacturing jobs have sailed overseas regardless of unions.Labor there is that cheap over there the piddily difference of unions versus not union makes little difference in that. Unless the USA goes back to slaves union or not if you manufacture stuff at work you are fucked.




They used legislation to create them so they can use legislation to tell them to fuck off.  And for all the babbling bullshit about union busting in Wisconsin the fact is that the bulk of what they are doing is allowing union members to choose whether to be in a union, what union should they be in and whether they want to pay dues.  The unions in question are anti-choice




Dont forget eliminating collective bargaining rights.

Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: To all the union haters [Re: Atomsk]
    #14047303 - 03/01/11 08:00 AM (13 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Dont forget eliminating collective bargaining rights

Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?




That is not the case though. 

Many, many successful and important careers are had by people who personally negotiated their salary and benefits.  Teachers should be the same.  One size fits all doesnt work.  Let each individual bargain for compensation relative to their own sills and abilities.  Its not just how burger flippers get jobs, its also how bankers, scientists, managers, engineers, etc. all get jobs. 

Monopolies are bad for innovation and efficiency.  In this case, the teachers union is a monopoly on labor which is bad for students and education.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: To all the union haters [Re: Net]
    #14047703 - 03/01/11 10:09 AM (13 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Net said:

That was in their contract. You know, the one the management agreed to and now wants to weasel out of with unpopular legislation.





contract expires in march, I'd simply refuse to renew the contract, call in a
bunch of scabs and tell the union to fuck off to california and since the
unions are already in violation of the no strike agreement they certainly
dont need a renewal on the contract they cant honor

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Atomsk]
    #14047709 - 03/01/11 10:10 AM (13 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Atomsk said:
Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?





really, what's a union done to benefit education?

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OfflineTaco Chef
I found dead John Cheever
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Registered: 03/03/06
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14047798 - 03/01/11 10:27 AM (13 years, 30 days ago)

A unionized public employee, a Tea Partier, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table sits a plate of a dozen cookies. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea partier, and says, "Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie." --M. Luziett


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: Atomsk]
    #14048553 - 03/01/11 01:33 PM (13 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Atomsk said:


Dont forget eliminating collective bargaining rights.




Why do union members (approx 12% of the working population) have rights the rest do not?  Answer, "they don't".  Some people are not more equal than others, Napolean.
Quote:



Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?




And yet you are comfortable with them having less accountability than burger flippers?

The Wisconsin bill maintains collective bargaining rights for wages.  Teachers and union government worker wages have risen much faster than private sector workers.  That costs everybody else (88% of the workers) more money, either in higher taxes, fewer services or higher costs of goods.  The union workforce is a screwing to everybody not in a union.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: To all the union haters [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14048578 - 03/01/11 01:38 PM (13 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Atomsk said:
Am I the only one who thinks that downgrading he job of teacher to something on par with a burger flipper will be bad for education?





really, what's a union done to benefit education?



Indeed.  We were told that paying teachers more would give us better teachers which would lead to better educated children.  This experiment has run for about 30 some years.  The results do not support any conclusion that paying more money to teachers improves educational results.

Aside from the amount of money being squandered there is also the pervasive corrupting effect that unoions have on the ability of administrators to get rid of the absolute shitbags I wouldn't want my child to share a bus with let alone a classroom.  But unions fight tooth and nail to protect their jobs.  Unions are not and have never been about the customer.  They are just dirty greedheads who would just as soon cornhole you as spare you a dime.


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Offlinesnoot
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Re: To all the union haters [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14050232 - 03/01/11 06:22 PM (13 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I keep hearing of lazy people being protected, but I've sure as hell never seen it, especially in the construction unions. 




Whatever union Boeing employees are members of has Boeing in contracts that severely limit their ability to fire any union employees (which by contract is pretty much all hourly employees).  Firing can only be done on a seniority basis.  That is, only the last person hired can be fired.  If two people were hired on the same day, they can only be fired in reverse alphabetical order--I shit you not.  It is possible to fire out of seniority order, but only in the case of three disciplinary actions in a six month period, or one very very severe infraction.  In practice, out of seniority firing almost never occurs.

Apparently the union makes Boeing jobs so cushy that once they do get laid off, nobody will hire them back once they see that they worked for Boeing because they know that if they get recalled, they will return to their old jobs.





I'm envious.


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I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
- Simone de Beauvoir -

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