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OfflineherbalMedz
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Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators
    #14019189 - 02/24/11 10:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

just saw this on TV...

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/another-runaway-general-army-deploys-psy-ops-on-u-s-senators-20110223?page=3


Quote:

The U.S. Army illegally ordered a team of soldiers specializing in "psychological operations" to manipulate visiting American senators into providing more troops and funding for the war, Rolling Stone has learned – and when an officer tried to stop the operation, he was railroaded by military investigators.

The Runaway General: The Rolling Stone Profile of Stanley McChrystal That Changed History


The orders came from the command of Lt. Gen. William Caldwell, a three-star general in charge of training Afghan troops – the linchpin of U.S. strategy in the war. Over a four-month period last year, a military cell devoted to what is known as "information operations" at Camp Eggers in Kabul was repeatedly pressured to target visiting senators and other VIPs who met with Caldwell. When the unit resisted the order, arguing that it violated U.S. laws prohibiting the use of propaganda against American citizens, it was subjected to a campaign of retaliation.

"My job in psy-ops is to play with people’s heads, to get the enemy to behave the way we want them to behave," says Lt. Colonel Michael Holmes, the leader of the IO unit, who received an official reprimand after bucking orders. "I’m prohibited from doing that to our own people. When you ask me to try to use these skills on senators and congressman, you’re crossing a line."

King David's War: How Gen. Petraeus Is Doubling Down on a Failed Strategy

The list of targeted visitors was long, according to interviews with members of the IO team and internal documents obtained by Rolling Stone. Those singled out in the campaign included senators John McCain, Joe Lieberman, Jack Reed, Al Franken and Carl Levin; Rep. Steve Israel of the House Appropriations Committee; Adm. Mike Mullen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; the Czech ambassador to Afghanistan; the German interior minister, and a host of influential think-tank analysts.

The incident offers an indication of just how desperate the U.S. command in Afghanistan is to spin American civilian leaders into supporting an increasingly unpopular war. According to the Defense Department’s own definition, psy-ops – the use of propaganda and psychological tactics to influence emotions and behaviors – are supposed to be used exclusively on "hostile foreign groups." Federal law forbids the military from practicing psy-ops on Americans, and each defense authorization bill comes with a "propaganda rider" that also prohibits such manipulation. "Everyone in the psy-ops, intel, and IO community knows you’re not supposed to target Americans," says a veteran member of another psy-ops team who has run operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. "It’s what you learn on day one."

The Insurgent's Tale: A Soldier Reconsiders Jihad

When Holmes and his four-man team arrived in Afghanistan in November 2009, their mission was to assess the effects of U.S. propaganda on the Taliban and the local Afghan population. But the following month, Holmes began receiving orders from Caldwell’s staff to direct his expertise on a new target: visiting Americans. At first, the orders were administered verbally. According to Holmes, who attended at least a dozen meetings with Caldwell to discuss the operation, the general wanted the IO unit to do the kind of seemingly innocuous work usually delegated to the two dozen members of his public affairs staff: compiling detailed profiles of the VIPs, including their voting records, their likes and dislikes, and their "hot-button issues." In one email to Holmes, Caldwell’s staff also wanted to know how to shape the general’s presentations to the visiting dignitaries, and how best to "refine our messaging."

Congressional delegations – known in military jargon as CODELs – are no strangers to spin. U.S. lawmakers routinely take trips to the frontlines in Iraq and Afghanistan, where they receive carefully orchestrated briefings and visit local markets before posing for souvenir photos in helmets and flak jackets. Informally, the trips are a way for generals to lobby congressmen and provide first-hand updates on the war. But what Caldwell was looking for was more than the usual background briefings on senators. According to Holmes, the general wanted the IO team to provide a "deeper analysis of pressure points we could use to leverage the delegation for more funds." The general’s chief of staff also asked Holmes how Caldwell could secretly manipulate the U.S. lawmakers without their knowledge. "How do we get these guys to give us more people?" he demanded. "What do I have to plant inside their heads?"

According to experts on intelligence policy, asking a psy-ops team to direct its expertise against visiting dignitaries would be like the president asking the CIA to put together background dossiers on congressional opponents. Holmes was even expected to sit in on Caldwell’s meetings with the senators and take notes, without divulging his background. "Putting your propaganda people in a room with senators doesn’t look good," says John Pike, a leading military analyst. "It doesn’t pass the smell test. Any decent propaganda operator would tell you that."

At a minimum, the use of the IO team against U.S. senators was a misue of vital resources designed to combat the enemy; it cost American taxpayers roughly $6 million to deploy Holmes and his team in Afghanistan for a year. But Caldwell seemed more eager to advance his own career than to defeat the Taliban. "We called it Operation Fourth Star," says Holmes. "Caldwell seemed far more focused on the Americans and the funding stream than he was on the Afghans. We were there to teach and train the Afghans. But for the first four months it was all about the U.S. Later he even started talking about targeting the NATO populations." At one point, according to Holmes, Caldwell wanted to break up the IO team and give each general on his staff their own personal spokesperson with psy-ops training.

It wasn’t the first time that Caldwell had tried to tear down the wall that has historically separated public affairs and psy-ops – the distinction the military is supposed to maintain between "informing" and "influencing." After a stint as the top U.S. spokesperson in Iraq, the general pushed aggressively to expand the military’s use of information operations. During his time as a commander at Ft. Leavenworth, Caldwell argued for exploiting new technologies like blogging and Wikipedia – a move that would widen the military’s ability to influence the public, both foreign and domestic. According to sources close to the general, he also tried to rewrite the official doctrine on information operations, though that effort ultimately failed. (In recent months, the Pentagon has quietly dropped the nefarious-sounding moniker "psy-ops" in favor of the more neutral "MISO" – short for Military Information Support Operations.)

Under duress, Holmes and his team provided Caldwell with background assessments on the visiting senators, and helped prep the general for his high-profile encounters. But according to members of his unit, Holmes did his best to resist the orders. Holmes believed that using his team to target American civilians violated the Smith-Mundt Act of 1948, which was passed by Congress to prevent the State Department from using Soviet-style propaganda techniques on U.S. citizens. But when Holmes brought his concerns to Col. Gregory Breazile, the spokesperson for the Afghan training mission run by Caldwell, the discussion ended in a screaming match. "It’s not illegal if I say it isn’t!" Holmes recalls Breazile shouting.

In March 2010, Breazile issued a written order that "directly tasked" Holmes to conduct an IO campaign against "all DV visits" – short for "distinguished visitor." The team was also instructed to "prepare the context and develop the prep package for each visit." In case the order wasn’t clear enough, Breazile added that the new instructions were to "take priority over all other duties." Instead of fighting the Taliban, Holmes and his team were now responsible for using their training to win the hearts and minds of John McCain and Al Franken.

On March 23rd, Holmes emailed the JAG lawyer who handled information operations, saying that the order made him "nervous." The lawyer, Capt. John Scott, agreed with Holmes. "The short answer is that IO doesn’t do that," Scott replied in an email. "[Public affairs] works on the hearts and minds of our own citizens and IO works on the hearts and minds of the citizens of other nations. While the twain do occasionally intersect, such intersections, like violent contact during a soccer game, should be unintentional."

In another email, Scott advised Holmes to seek his own defense counsel. "Using IO to influence our own folks is a bad idea," the lawyer wrote, "and contrary to IO policy."

In a statement to Rolling Stone, a spokesman for Caldwell "categorically denies the assertion that the command used an Information Operations Cell to influence Distinguished Visitors." But after Scott offered his legal opinion, the order was rewritten to stipulate that the IO unit should only use publicly available records to create profiles of U.S. visitors. Based on the narrower definition of the order, Holmes and his team believed the incident was behind them.

Three weeks after the exchange, however, Holmes learned that he was the subject of an investigation, called an AR 15-6. The investigation had been ordered by Col. Joe Buche, Caldwell’s chief of staff. The 22-page report, obtained by Rolling Stone, reads like something put together by Kenneth Starr. The investigator accuses Holmes of going off base in civilian clothes without permission, improperly using his position to start a private business, consuming alcohol, using Facebook too much, and having an "inappropriate" relationship with one of his subordinates, Maj. Laural Levine. The investigator also noted a joking comment that Holmes made on his Facebook wall, in response to a jibe about Afghan men wanting to hold his hand. "Hey! I’ve been here almost five months now!" Holmes wrote. "Gimmee a break a man has needs you know."

"LTC Holmes’ comments about his sexual needs," the report concluded, "are even more distasteful in light of his status as a married man."

Both Holmes and Levine maintain that there was nothing inappropriate about their relationship, and said they were waiting until after they left Afghanistan to start their own business. They and other members of the team also say that they had been given permission to go off post in civilian clothes. As for Facebook, Caldwell’s command had aggressively encouraged its officers to the use the site as part of a social-networking initiative – and Holmes ranked only 15th among the biggest users.

Nor was Holmes the only one who wrote silly things online. Col. Breazile’s Facebook page, for example, is spotted with similar kinds of nonsense, including multiple references to drinking alcohol, and a photo of a warning inside a Port-o-John mocking Afghans – "In case any of you forgot that you are supposed to sit on the toilet and not stand on it and squat. It’s a safety issue. We don’t want you to fall in or miss your target." Breazile now serves at the Joint Chiefs of Staff, where he works in the office dedicated to waging a global information war for the Pentagon.

Following the investigation, both Holmes and Levine were formally reprimanded. Holmes, believing that he was being targeted for questioning the legality of waging an IO campaign against U.S. visitors, complained to the Defense Department’s inspector general. Three months later, he was informed that he was not entitled to protection as a whistleblower, because the JAG lawyer he consulted was not "designated to receive such communications."

Levine, who has a spotless record and 19 service awards after 16 years in the military, including a tour of duty in Kuwait and Iraq, fears that she has become "the collateral damage" in the military’s effort to retaliate against Holmes. "It will probably end my career," she says. "My father was an officer, and I believed officers would never act like this. I was devastated. I’ve lost my faith in the military, and I couldn’t in good conscience recommend anyone joining right now."

After being reprimanded, Holmes and his team were essentially ignored for the rest of their tours in Afghanistan. But on June 15th, the entire Afghan training mission received a surprising memo from Col. Buche, Caldwell’s chief of staff. "Effective immediately," the memo read, "the engagement in information operations by personnel assigned to the NATO Training Mission-Afghanistan and Combined Security Transition Command-Afghanistan is strictly prohibited." From now on, the memo added, the "information operation cell" would be referred to as the "Information Engagement cell." The IE’s mission? "This cell will engage in activities for the sole purpose of informing and educating U.S., Afghan and international audiences…." The memo declared, in short, that those who had trained in psy-ops and other forms of propaganda would now officially be working as public relations experts – targeting a worldwide audience.

As for the operation targeting U.S. senators, there is no way to tell what, if any, influence it had on American policy. What is clear is that in January 2011, Caldwell’s command asked the Obama administration for another $2 billion to train an additional 70,000 Afghan troops – an initiative that will already cost U.S. taxpayers more than $11 billion this year. Among the biggest boosters in Washington to give Caldwell the additional money? Sen. Carl Levin, one of the senators whom Holmes had been ordered to target.




Comments/opinions??

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Invisibleuber_aj
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 4,486
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: herbalMedz] * 3
    #14019425 - 02/24/11 11:23 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It's more surprising to me that somebody blew the lid off this heinous bullshit than it is that it was happening in the first place.

For anybody too lazy to read the article, it's talking about how a supposedly rogue officer was using military resources and propaganda tactics to learn about visiting US senators, in order to appeal to their ideals and persuade them to get more backing for the military industrial complex.

I hope that more and more people begin to understand how important Propaganda (aka Psy-Ops, aka MISO, aka Public Relations) has become for all of us. PR firms like Burson Marsteller support world dictators like the Libya cunt, then get hired by the US to twist facts and make up stories to get the American public behind bullshit wars. This isn't conspiracy, it happens all the time. Edward Bernays started "Public Relations" to protect JD Rockefeller after the brutalization and murder of his employees. It was a huge success and has spawned into a multi-billion dollar industry.

In the exert below you can read about the rogue officer arguing for subtle military influence in Wikipedia and blogging websites. Although it's against the law for the military to use these techniques against it's own people, the military is a self-perpetuating system that will always have officers and generals who try.

Quote:


It wasn’t the first time that Caldwell had tried to tear down the wall that has historically separated public affairs and psy-ops – the distinction the military is supposed to maintain between "informing" and "influencing." After a stint as the top U.S. spokesperson in Iraq, the general pushed aggressively to expand the military’s use of information operations. During his time as a commander at Ft. Leavenworth, Caldwell argued for exploiting new technologies like blogging and Wikipedia – a move that would widen the military’s ability to influence the public, both foreign and domestic. According to sources close to the general, he also tried to rewrite the official doctrine on information operations, though that effort ultimately failed. (In recent months, the Pentagon has quietly dropped the nefarious-sounding moniker "psy-ops" in favor of the more neutral "MISO" – short for Military Information Support Operations.)





You should also notice the acronym MISO. The military has received flak for it's Psy-Ops propaganda machine several times, so they're changing the name to MISO b/c it doesn't sound as scary. In the civilian marketing and advertising world we call this rebranding, companies do it often, especially when the original name of their product brings up a slur of poor online reviews and complaints.

Eisenhower warned us about checking the interests of the military industrial complex. In this case the right actions seem to have been taken, but it doesn't mean we trust this to always be the case. Even though few have the delusion that we will somehow win Afghanistan, we continue to pour over $400 billion a year into defense spending. We're slashing support for education and public services, yet nobody in politics is pressing for the defense budget to be cut. Obama is actually asking for an additional $22 billion for Afghanistan. We're poised to spend $895 billion in the next two years on defense. That's more than the next 27 countries combined, and 26 of them are our allies... just food for thought.

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Invisibleunknown1123
Experimental

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 5,813
Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14019530 - 02/24/11 11:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
It's more surprising to me that somebody blew the lid off this heinous bullshit than it is that it was happening in the first place.

For anybody too lazy to read the article, it's talking about how a supposedly rogue officer was using military resources and propaganda tactics to learn about visiting US senators, in order to appeal to their ideals and persuade them to get more backing for the military industrial complex.

I hope that more and more people begin to understand how important Propaganda (aka Psy-Ops, aka MISO, aka Public Relations) has become for all of us. PR firms like Burson Marsteller support world dictators like the Libya cunt, then get hired by the US to twist facts and make up stories to get the American public behind bullshit wars. This isn't conspiracy, it happens all the time. Edward Bernays started "Public Relations" to protect JD Rockefeller after the brutalization and murder of his employees. It was a huge success and has spawned into a multi-billion dollar industry.

In the exert below you can read about the rogue officer arguing for subtle military influence in Wikipedia and blogging websites. Although it's against the law for the military to use these techniques against it's own people, the military is a self-perpetuating system that will always have officers and generals who try.

Quote:


It wasn’t the first time that Caldwell had tried to tear down the wall that has historically separated public affairs and psy-ops – the distinction the military is supposed to maintain between "informing" and "influencing." After a stint as the top U.S. spokesperson in Iraq, the general pushed aggressively to expand the military’s use of information operations. During his time as a commander at Ft. Leavenworth, Caldwell argued for exploiting new technologies like blogging and Wikipedia – a move that would widen the military’s ability to influence the public, both foreign and domestic. According to sources close to the general, he also tried to rewrite the official doctrine on information operations, though that effort ultimately failed. (In recent months, the Pentagon has quietly dropped the nefarious-sounding moniker "psy-ops" in favor of the more neutral "MISO" – short for Military Information Support Operations.)





You should also notice the acronym MISO. The military has received flak for it's Psy-Ops propaganda machine several times, so they're changing the name to MISO b/c it doesn't sound as scary. In the civilian marketing and advertising world we call this rebranding, companies do it often, especially when the original name of their product brings up a slur of poor online reviews and complaints.

Eisenhower warned us about checking the interests of the military industrial complex. In this case the right actions seem to have been taken, but it doesn't mean we trust this to always be the case. Even though few have the delusion that we will somehow win Afghanistan, we continue to pour over $400 billion a year into defense spending. We're slashing support for education and public services, yet nobody in politics is pressing for the defense budget to be cut. Obama is actually asking for an additional $22 billion for Afghanistan. We're poised to spend $895 billion in the next two years on defense. That's more than the next 27 countries combined, and 26 of them are our allies... just food for thought.



Good info, thanks.

:themoreyouknow:


--------------------

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OfflineDarklight203
Same Shit
Male


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 1,394
Loc: Nome, Alaska Flag
Last seen: 6 months, 21 days
Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14019555 - 02/24/11 11:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I got to paragraph three and scrolled down to, "For anyone too lazy to read the article," and realized I'm your demographic.
In regards to everything else, it's all about being a salesman. We're all buying and selling. Bigger budgets, nice titles, it don't matter much. Just depends on the salesman and the Potential New Client.


--------------------
In ancient times, when demons roamed with man, They hunted, loved and lost, hand in hand, As time went on, the difference between them faded. You couldn't tell anymore, demons and man were related, and some would say the same, but who would like to claim? In time, Gods had even forgot, Demons, too, once love had sought. In times recent I remember, Once I was a man, In my heart I had an ember, I'll relate the best I can but it was snuffed, one distant December. And yet here I stand, no flesh, no bones, no seed or semen, All that's left is this Demon.

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OfflineRun
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Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 488
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14019594 - 02/24/11 12:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
It's more surprising to me that somebody blew the lid off this heinous bullshit than it is that it was happening in the first place.

For anybody too lazy to read the article, it's talking about how a supposedly rogue officer was using military resources and propaganda tactics to learn about visiting US senators, in order to appeal to their ideals and persuade them to get more backing for the military industrial complex.

I hope that more and more people begin to understand how important Propaganda (aka Psy-Ops, aka MISO, aka Public Relations) has become for all of us. PR firms like Burson Marsteller support world dictators like the Libya cunt, then get hired by the US to twist facts and make up stories to get the American public behind bullshit wars. This isn't conspiracy, it happens all the time. Edward Bernays started "Public Relations" to protect JD Rockefeller after the brutalization and murder of his employees. It was a huge success and has spawned into a multi-billion dollar industry.

In the exert below you can read about the rogue officer arguing for subtle military influence in Wikipedia and blogging websites. Although it's against the law for the military to use these techniques against it's own people, the military is a self-perpetuating system that will always have officers and generals who try.

Quote:


It wasn’t the first time that Caldwell had tried to tear down the wall that has historically separated public affairs and psy-ops – the distinction the military is supposed to maintain between "informing" and "influencing." After a stint as the top U.S. spokesperson in Iraq, the general pushed aggressively to expand the military’s use of information operations. During his time as a commander at Ft. Leavenworth, Caldwell argued for exploiting new technologies like blogging and Wikipedia – a move that would widen the military’s ability to influence the public, both foreign and domestic. According to sources close to the general, he also tried to rewrite the official doctrine on information operations, though that effort ultimately failed. (In recent months, the Pentagon has quietly dropped the nefarious-sounding moniker "psy-ops" in favor of the more neutral "MISO" – short for Military Information Support Operations.)





You should also notice the acronym MISO. The military has received flak for it's Psy-Ops propaganda machine several times, so they're changing the name to MISO b/c it doesn't sound as scary. In the civilian marketing and advertising world we call this rebranding, companies do it often, especially when the original name of their product brings up a slur of poor online reviews and complaints.

Eisenhower warned us about checking the interests of the military industrial complex. In this case the right actions seem to have been taken, but it doesn't mean we trust this to always be the case. Even though few have the delusion that we will somehow win Afghanistan, we continue to pour over $400 billion a year into defense spending. We're slashing support for education and public services, yet nobody in politics is pressing for the defense budget to be cut. Obama is actually asking for an additional $22 billion for Afghanistan. We're poised to spend $895 billion in the next two years on defense. That's more than the next 27 countries combined, and 26 of them are our allies... just food for thought.






It also interesting to think , who benefits from war costs. Somebody always has . You rarely see the people benefiting from war costs. Why does the US need to spend ridiculous amounts on military expenses, in a time of 'financial crisis'?  I recently looked at a chart that compared military expenses. US in 2008 was spending 41% on military expenses and a very small amount on education, sciences and public services. Why the fuck are we spending so much of the public's money, when the public isn't benefiting in any aspect of the war. Military funding needs to severed. We should be putting the public's money into other things that benefit our communities not some foreign policy that does not benefit any citizen. US has always spent ridiculous amounts of money in all the wars we've been in, proxy or non-proxy. Too much money goes to military wayyyyy too much . People need to understand where their money is going and how its benefiting them. Instead you see people agreeing to pay taxes, and not asking where the money is going.

Us always need to dominate  power to control the world and world views . 

I'm sick to say I live in the US :frown:


--------------------
You, me, this point in existence is undeniably so unique, we take everything for granite ,life , comprehension, feelings, thought, so accustomed to understanding that we've lost the meaning of fully understanding who we are..... we are the extra terrestrial, we are the unknown, we are the mystical...

Edited by Run (02/24/11 12:04 PM)

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Invisibleuber_aj
Goodbye Shroomery!
Male


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 4,486
Loc: Much love to you all
Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Darklight203]
    #14019649 - 02/24/11 12:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

As a lifelong salesperson with experience in advertising, I gotta disagree with you.

There's a big difference between selling your product/service and intentionally misleading people to get what you want. One is a sale, the other is trickery. Unfortunately the majority of successful salespeople don't draw this distinction b/c all they care about is the close, which I can regrettably empathize with.

The science behind the sale is too good now. We know an emotional sale will trump a logical sale 99% of the time, so instead of marketing the benefits of a product, more and more marketing and advertising campaigns just tie a cheap emotion to the good/service and bank on repetition forming an emotional bond in your head. It's trickery and we're all bombarded with it from every angle, and it certainly does matter - When a corrupt and fundamentally broken government entity sells a war (to perpetuate it's own existence) by hiring an unscrupulous PR firm to fabricate stories of atrocities carried out on innocent people in order to get popular opinion backing from the American people, things have gone too far.

When we see Iraqis tearing down the Sadam statue we think, "Oh good, they're happy we freed them," not, "The Marine Corps executed a preplanned Psy-Ops mission by rounding up nearby civilians and commanding them to rip it down so that the mainstream media can sell us a warm fuzzy feeling and get our approval to spend several trillion more dollars in defense."

A dishonest sale is a con.

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Invisibleuber_aj
Goodbye Shroomery!
Male


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 4,486
Loc: Much love to you all
Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Run]
    #14019712 - 02/24/11 12:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Run said:
It also interesting to think , who benefits from war costs. Somebody always has . You rarely see the people benefiting from war costs. Why does the US need to spend ridiculous amounts on military expenses, in a time of 'financial crisis'?  I recently looked at a chart that compared military expenses. US in 2008 was spending 41% on military expenses and a very small amount on education, sciences and public services. Why the fuck are we spending so much of the public's money, when the public isn't benefiting in any aspect of the war. Military funding needs to severed. We should be putting the public's money into other things that benefit our communities not some foreign policy that does not benefit any citizen. US has always spent ridiculous amounts of money in all the wars we've been in, proxy or non-proxy. Too much money goes to military wayyyyy too much . People need to understand where their money is going and how its benefiting them. Instead you see people agreeing to pay taxes, and not asking where the money is going.

Us always need to dominate  power to control the world and world views . 

I'm sick to say I live in the US :frown:




:thumbup: It's not even a matter of us not benefiting from the war, though, it's worse than that. We lose. We lose family members and friends overseas, we lose jobs, we lose new technologies, we rake up huge deficits and go into debt. Then, after a decade or so, we lose the fucking war, too.

Can you imagine what a quarter of defense spending would do if it were given to science instead? Or education? Or infrastructure? If we could just get over our imperial nationalism for a little while, we could have reason to think of ourselves as a great country.

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OfflineRyan07
TurnItUpnMakeTheSpeakersBleed

Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 1,197
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14019769 - 02/24/11 12:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the input ubar-aj... good stuff..or bad :frown:

Up with hope and change!


--------------------

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OfflineRun
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Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 488
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14019773 - 02/24/11 12:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
As a lifelong salesperson with experience in advertising, I gotta disagree with you.

There's a big difference between selling your product/service and intentionally misleading people to get what you want. One is a sale, the other is trickery. Unfortunately the majority of successful salespeople don't draw this distinction b/c all they care about is the close, which I can regrettably empathize with.

The science behind the sale is too good now. We know an emotional sale will trump a logical sale 99% of the time, so instead of marketing the benefits of a product, more and more marketing and advertising campaigns just tie a cheap emotion to the good/service and bank on repetition forming an emotional bond in your head. It's trickery and we're all bombarded with it from every angle, and it certainly does matter - When a corrupt and fundamentally broken government entity sells a war (to perpetuate it's own existence) by hiring an unscrupulous PR firm to fabricate stories of atrocities carried out on innocent people in order to get popular opinion backing from the American people, things have gone too far.

When we see Iraqis tearing down the Sadam statue we think, "Oh good, they're happy we freed them," not, "The Marine Corps executed a preplanned Psy-Ops mission by rounding up nearby civilians and commanding them to rip it down so that the mainstream media can sell us a warm fuzzy feeling and get our approval to spend several trillion more dollars in defense."

A dishonest sale is a con.





First off I have to comment on how well you write ++.

Secondly thats been the mode of the 21st century. Tieing cheap emotions to ads to relate to the consumer. Our people don't want logical, critical questions presented to them after a 'hard' day of work. They want simple.... 'warm' .. 'fuzzy' ads that make them feel better about them selves.

The grounds of justification we enter wars and how we end them are almost entirely illegitimate.


--------------------
You, me, this point in existence is undeniably so unique, we take everything for granite ,life , comprehension, feelings, thought, so accustomed to understanding that we've lost the meaning of fully understanding who we are..... we are the extra terrestrial, we are the unknown, we are the mystical...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRun
Questioning my existance
 User Gallery


Registered: 10/22/09
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14019838 - 02/24/11 12:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
Quote:

Run said:
It also interesting to think , who benefits from war costs. Somebody always has . You rarely see the people benefiting from war costs. Why does the US need to spend ridiculous amounts on military expenses, in a time of 'financial crisis'?  I recently looked at a chart that compared military expenses. US in 2008 was spending 41% on military expenses and a very small amount on education, sciences and public services. Why the fuck are we spending so much of the public's money, when the public isn't benefiting in any aspect of the war. Military funding needs to severed. We should be putting the public's money into other things that benefit our communities not some foreign policy that does not benefit any citizen. US has always spent ridiculous amounts of money in all the wars we've been in, proxy or non-proxy. Too much money goes to military wayyyyy too much . People need to understand where their money is going and how its benefiting them. Instead you see people agreeing to pay taxes, and not asking where the money is going.

Us always need to dominate  power to control the world and world views . 

I'm sick to say I live in the US :frown:




:thumbup: It's not even a matter of us not benefiting from the war, though, it's worse than that. We lose. We lose family members and friends overseas, we lose jobs, we lose new technologies, we rake up huge deficits and go into debt. Then, after a decade or so, we lose the fucking war, too.

Can you imagine what a quarter of defense spending would do if it were given to science instead? Or education? Or infrastructure? If we could just get over our imperial nationalism for a little while, we could have reason to think of ourselves as a great country.





Yeah.. thats the fucked up part. Why the shot callers sit in their huge offices, barking commands counting there stacks, scheming on how to double there money, or how they can open up another sweat shop in some foreign country. 
The young people, the innocent whom grown up trusting there authority figure. Join the military thinking its the patriotic thing to do- serve my country ... ahh all my friends and family members will respect me. Go and die for some fucked up hidden agenda . They have no idea why they're their. They just think its the right thing . Its not there fault, for they've been deceived since day one.

Quote:


If we could just get over our imperial nationalism for a little while.




Thats my utopia man, can you imagine the world evolving with compassion? Instead of profit . God this world had the potential to be great


--------------------
You, me, this point in existence is undeniably so unique, we take everything for granite ,life , comprehension, feelings, thought, so accustomed to understanding that we've lost the meaning of fully understanding who we are..... we are the extra terrestrial, we are the unknown, we are the mystical...

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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Run]
    #14019879 - 02/24/11 01:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the compliment, I love writing.

It's a telltale sign of how ignorant and lazy our society has become (or remained, rather) when we almost unanimously prefer the emotional sale to the logical one. It reinforces the behavior of feeling rather than thinking. Skepticism and critical thinking are considered to be too much work at best, and elitist or dehumanizing at worst.

We won't solve these problems until we stop putting our faith in nations and higher powers and instead put it in ourselves and our peers. That's hard to do when your peers are uneducated nationalist consumers. It's up to us to slowly change that by discussing important matters alongside the daily personal bullshit we talk to each other about.

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OfflineRun
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14019921 - 02/24/11 01:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Its hard , for me atleast to discuss this with my fellow friends and family because almost all them think that i'm crazy or im the one thats deceived. Maybe I don't present the topic very well but most of the time people don't even care about any logical thinking or anything that goes against the way we live. Most people don't want to hear it. I honestly think that the world will never see peace , and will never be how it could be. The world and history repeats, and history has shown that there will always be a illegitimate war to reap people of there lands and resources , always fighting some made up 'scary' figure that is going to endanger your life unless you go to war and spend trillons of dollars to 'protect' you. When in reality you look in the mirror and you realize.. wait I'm the monster.


--------------------
You, me, this point in existence is undeniably so unique, we take everything for granite ,life , comprehension, feelings, thought, so accustomed to understanding that we've lost the meaning of fully understanding who we are..... we are the extra terrestrial, we are the unknown, we are the mystical...

Edited by Run (02/24/11 01:13 PM)

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14019939 - 02/24/11 01:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Drug-related?

BTW I'm too lazy to read the whole thing but read this elsewhere and as far as I know this wouldn't belong in this section.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators (moved) [Re: herbalMedz]
    #14019948 - 02/24/11 01:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

This thread was moved from Shroomery News Service.

Reason:

Moved to Political Discussion.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14019980 - 02/24/11 01:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
As a lifelong salesperson with experience in advertising, I gotta disagree with you.

There's a big difference between selling your product/service and intentionally misleading people to get what you want. One is a sale, the other is trickery. Unfortunately the majority of successful salespeople don't draw this distinction b/c all they care about is the close, which I can regrettably empathize with.

The science behind the sale is too good now. We know an emotional sale will trump a logical sale 99% of the time, so instead of marketing the benefits of a product, more and more marketing and advertising campaigns just tie a cheap emotion to the good/service and bank on repetition forming an emotional bond in your head. It's trickery and we're all bombarded with it from every angle, and it certainly does matter - When a corrupt and fundamentally broken government entity sells a war (to perpetuate it's own existence) by hiring an unscrupulous PR firm to fabricate stories of atrocities carried out on innocent people in order to get popular opinion backing from the American people, things have gone too far.

When we see Iraqis tearing down the Sadam statue we think, "Oh good, they're happy we freed them," not, "The Marine Corps executed a preplanned Psy-Ops mission by rounding up nearby civilians and commanding them to rip it down so that the mainstream media can sell us a warm fuzzy feeling and get our approval to spend several trillion more dollars in defense."

A dishonest sale is a con.



I can't disagree with you there. I have worked 5 months of telephone sales, only learned the ropes. Making a sale for a stupid company that doesn't do what it's designed to do well for half the people that join is sad. People would do well to take communication classes in college, particularly about interpersonal and media.
My main point wasn't about right or wrong, more sarcastic about the way things are going now.
:cheers:


--------------------
In ancient times, when demons roamed with man, They hunted, loved and lost, hand in hand, As time went on, the difference between them faded. You couldn't tell anymore, demons and man were related, and some would say the same, but who would like to claim? In time, Gods had even forgot, Demons, too, once love had sought. In times recent I remember, Once I was a man, In my heart I had an ember, I'll relate the best I can but it was snuffed, one distant December. And yet here I stand, no flesh, no bones, no seed or semen, All that's left is this Demon.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Run]
    #14020682 - 02/24/11 03:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Run said:
Its hard , for me atleast to discuss this with my fellow friends and family because almost all them think that i'm crazy or im the one thats deceived. Maybe I don't present the topic very well but most of the time people don't even care about any logical thinking or anything that goes against the way we live. Most people don't want to hear it. I honestly think that the world will never see peace , and will never be how it could be. The world and history repeats, and history has shown that there will always be a illegitimate war to reap people of there lands and resources , always fighting some made up 'scary' figure that is going to endanger your life unless you go to war and spend trillons of dollars to 'protect' you. When in reality you look in the mirror and you realize.. wait I'm the monster.




What you said there doesn't sound crazy.  It's absolutely true IMO.  The world will never see peace.  People will always try to gain power over others.  People will always want something from someone else.  People will accept progaganda.  Nations will rise and fall and millions will die.  It's part of history and part of humanity.

It's not all bad though.  Compared to world history, we are in a very peaceful time.  The main difference is that we hear news from all over the world and are far more connected now.  Technological innovations have allowed many people to live longer lives while having to do much less work.  That will continue to expand to more people over time.  Also, the internet and social networking is a new dynamic.  It is bringing people across the world much closer together.  We are all slowly becoming one society.  One good thing that will do is make people empathize more with others.  With that, it will become harder for big brother to convince people we need to go blow up some people.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Darklight203]
    #14020712 - 02/24/11 03:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Run said:
Its hard , for me atleast to discuss this with my fellow friends and family because almost all them think that i'm crazy or im the one thats deceived. Maybe I don't present the topic very well but most of the time people don't even care about any logical thinking or anything that goes against the way we live. Most people don't want to hear it. I honestly think that the world will never see peace , and will never be how it could be. The world and history repeats, and history has shown that there will always be a illegitimate war to reap people of there lands and resources , always fighting some made up 'scary' figure that is going to endanger your life unless you go to war and spend trillons of dollars to 'protect' you. When in reality you look in the mirror and you realize.. wait I'm the monster.




Well history was full of repeats of man's failure to fly until the Wright Brothers. It comes back to education again. Once more people started pointing out that the War on Drugs was simply Prohibition, brain cells flickered on, recognized that it failed once already, is still failing today, and now there's a way bigger movement to end it.

The military industrial complex isn't immune to economics, either. It's in a bubble like anything else, we're just some of the people who see how overinflated it is for what it provides. When you point this out to people, you have to do it subtly. If they think you're trying to put the ideas in their head they'll reject it. Just point out, "Remember Osama Bin Laden?" It's kind of funny and it makes them think.

Quote:

Darklight203 said:
I can't disagree with you there. I have worked 5 months of telephone sales, only learned the ropes. Making a sale for a stupid company that doesn't do what it's designed to do well for half the people that join is sad. People would do well to take communication classes in college, particularly about interpersonal and media.
My main point wasn't about right or wrong, more sarcastic about the way things are going now.
:cheers:




Yeah that's how all sales jobs are. If the shit worked it would sell itself. Telephone isn't bad though, I did 3 years of door-to-door when I learned the in and outs :argh: If the pay wasn't baller I wouldn't have made it one week in sales turd polishing. I feel you though, bigger numbers are all anybody gives a shit about these days, it's ridiculous.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14024191 - 02/25/11 07:07 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


What you said there doesn't sound crazy.  It's absolutely true IMO.  The world will never see peace.  People will always try to gain power over others.  People will always want something from someone else.  People will accept progaganda.  Nations will rise and fall and millions will die.  It's part of history and part of humanity.

It's not all bad though.  Compared to world history, we are in a very peaceful time.  The main difference is that we hear news from all over the world and are far more connected now.  Technological innovations have allowed many people to live longer lives while having to do much less work.  That will continue to expand to more people over time.  Also, the internet and social networking is a new dynamic.  It is bringing people across the world much closer together.  We are all slowly becoming one society.  One good thing that will do is make people empathize more with others.  With that, it will become harder for big brother to convince people we need to go blow up some people.




very good point.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: herbalMedz]
    #14024370 - 02/25/11 08:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i think as much as technology benefits it has an equal or greater potential to manipulate negatively.

as much as we can learn from information, we can also be deceived by it.  the more access we have to each other,  the more access others have to us that we may not necessarily be aware of.

the more medical knowledge we obtain to heal, the more we find pills and poisons saturating our pharmacological and food market

as smart as we think we are, i believe humanity in general doesn't really understand consciousness.  think about what TV has done to society.  what are cell-phones doing?  these are all massive amounts of frequencies slamming us from all directions.

and the internet was created by the military.

just something to think about.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Grav]
    #14024438 - 02/25/11 08:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

yes, that is an extremely good point as well.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Grav]
    #14024784 - 02/25/11 10:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Technology is neutral. When the first human figured out how to start a fire, some people realized that it had the potential to save lives and cook food, others saw it's potential for flaming arrows and village burn-downs. Like anything else: guns, drugs, oil, information, how we use it is all that matters. The same technology that got us to the moon sends cruise missiles at their targets. On the other hand, since technology has given the world superpowers the ability to destroy earth, there has been a stand-still in large scale warfare. It has also made it infinitely more critical that we not allow insane dictators to get control of our countries.

Your argument is valid, but again it comes back to the need for more people to be educated about these things and to have a broader view of the world. Intelligent people have a pretty good grasp on consciousness, the downsides of constant stimulation and exposure to radiation via cell phone receivers. It's hard to tell people to cut back though, b/c in all reality they'll probably still live to eighty.

Without the poisons saturating our food market, a third of the world's current population would've already starved to death. I prefer organic foods and I think Monsanto is a wholly corrupt enterprise, but GMO foods are a necessary evil in some regard. Same as pharmaceuticals. Sure some of them are over prescribed, toxic drugs that lazy, ignorant people feed to their overstimulated children. The majority save and improve lives of people who do have real diseases though. As much as we want to complain about the medical industry's shortcomings, we live 2x as long as our ancestors. I still have my left arm today b/c of our understanding of bacterial infection and physical therapy. There's a high chance you or your mother would have died at birth without modern medicine.

The thing about science is that while it clearly isn't perfect, it fixes itself over time. We're toddlers in this game. Adolescence will be nanotechnology, age reversal therapy, artificially grown organs, artificially grown meat, etc. The entire time we'll have the capability to destroy ourselves entirely, but when has our species survival not been in jeopardy?

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14024962 - 02/25/11 11:20 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I agree technology is neutral, but like you said it's application is not.  (and i think you'd be hard pressed to find un-applied technology)  And like you say for every application that can help, it can also be weaponized.  The problem I have is that we are always sold on the benefits, while the downsides go under the radar and are generally are far more difficult to get information about.  I think we are perpetually buying cars without looking under the hood.

Also we have secret technology constantly being researched and applied, and it seems like quite an act of faith to assume it's in good hands.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Grav]
    #14025727 - 02/25/11 02:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Most people are just looking out for #1 including those who take government jobs. They don't have our (common citizens') best interests at heart. I wouldn't trust them just like I wouldn't trust a stranger. You can bet your ass that much of the new technology in development will be used for the benefit of private interests and the detriment of the common man.


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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Grav]
    #14025737 - 02/25/11 02:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

We're not sold anything. Are you arguing that we should end technological advancement b/c big pharma isn't regulated well enough? We can't hold back technology for a hundred years to do immaculate, comprehensive research on everything. We get a lot of shit right, we get some shit wrong. Some of the wrong takes a long time to become evident to us (like overuse of fossil fuels). The important thing is that we correct the wrong over time. We sacrifice a little safety for a wealth of knowledge that will ultimately result in incredibly long life times and interplanetary living.

Dictators had an easy time controlling us without science and technology, it was the Dark ages. Now dictators are being overthrown left and right thanks to the internet and global communications. We're not in any increased risk of danger with technology than we would be without it.

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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14025789 - 02/25/11 02:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

That post just reeks of :tinfoil:

Much of the new technology in development is going to be used to benefit the common man to turn a profit. That's how this works. You seem to think scientists have some hidden agenda for why they're making discoveries. What detrimental technology do you believe is in the hands of "private interests," aka "Them?"

Before you answer, ask yourself if the example you're going to give is really driven by consumer demand from the common man...

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14025943 - 02/25/11 03:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What detrimental technology do you believe is in the hands of "private interests," aka "Them?"




Your attempt to classify me as a tinfoil hatter without knowing my full opinion saddens me; people these days are so judgmental. I don't even know you, have never spoken to you before and already you have me pinned as a nutter.

I apologize for using such a vague term as "private interests" which can mean anything from gay rights groups to the Israeli lobby in our capitol. For the purposes of this thread, when I say "private interests" I am talking about corporations who benefit monetarily from screwing over the middle and lower class.

Technological "breakthroughs" that inevitably cause more harm than good: Vioxx, Prozac, Aspartame, and a litany of other drugs and chemicals labeled as safe by various governmental oversight organizations, sometimes with prior knowledge of their harmful effects, and every time without having done sufficient testing of their safety; Big Pharma medications get pissed out by users and contaminate the water table. Directed sonic and microwave weapons touted as "non-lethal" and "humane" when really it's just a fancy new way to cause serious injury; continued development of petroleum-based products like cars and plastic when hemp could easily replace them (and is a renewable resource; seems like an obvious choice but greedy fucks don't want to turn down the heat on their 8th home); cancer treatments that are just as likely to kill as to cure; genetically modified food that doesn't produce seed just so the suits can make an extra buck, and has helped along the dire overpopulation problem; cloud seeding and weather modification technology is in widespread use under the guise of helping to stop global warming, which is complete bullshit.

Like Grav said, there are many technologies out there that we don't fully understand in regards to their effects human health. It's been demonstrated that people living near strong electric currents suffer a variety of health problems. Who's to say that all these frequencies we are bombarded with 24/7 are safe? I don't see people dropping dead so I doubt it's anything too serious, but I would still like to know what possible harm could come from new techs before some venture capitalist decides to throw caution to the wind just so he can afford another yacht.


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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14026132 - 02/25/11 03:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't classify you of being anything, I said your post reeked of it (it is pretty paranoid), then I asked you to clarify. You, however, have implied that I'm judgmental based on your assumption. It's a simple miscommunication.

Pharmaceuticals aren't regulated well enough, I agree. They're pushed on us for profit and most have serious side effects. Still, it is the individual's choice to take an antidepressant rather than exercise and get out in the sun. Consumer demand drives this problem, and we still choose to take the pills even when the commercials and doctors give us a wordy description of the side effects. When Oxycontin was discovered to be misrepresented, the makers were sued for billions. Life is change. As more people realize that this is a problem, it will change like everything else.

Sonic and Microwave weapons aren't being widely used to my knowledge. Tasers are often used by overzealous police officers despite their ability to stop the heart, which happens frequently. Regardless, technology isn't to blame, without it they just would've beat you with clubs and maybe broken your spine. If people decide in the future that microwave and sonic weapons are an insufferable form of riot control we can move for a ban.

Green technology is being increasingly researched. Ford now uses fungus to make one of their car parts. Things are changing in the petroleum based world b/c consumers are starting to demand cleaner, more environmentally sound products. We also demand cheap products, so most companies will continue to use petroleum based options until the green movement has become large enough to be more cost effective, or oil becomes to expensive and alternatives are necessary for a low price. I can't agree more with you that we should end our dependence on oil. Science and technology are the only reason we realize this, though.

GMO foods are in demand b/c of over-population. Many would call it unethical to let a couple billion people die of starvation when you have a way to feed them. Even more, there has been no evidence of any kind that eating GMO foods is detrimental to humans. If you don't want to take the risk, don't eat GMO foods. The people who they were made to help can't afford to make that distinction (They're technically more "common man" than you). Monsanto's business ethics are hardly defensible, no argument there. Still, we now have large organic sections at grocery stores b/c people have started to demand nonGMO foods.

Anyway, my point is that things aren't the way you're making them seem. It's all driven by the "common man" demanding these things and companies supplying them in imperfect ways. Nobody is forcing you to use these technologies, so the companies aren't fucking over the average Joe, the average Joe fucks himself over by voting against government regulations, by buying inefficient cars, and by not having a clue what he puts into his body, b/c looking up the drug a doctor gives him takes a whole ten minutes of his time. If you want to see less people making stupid decisions that boost the profit margins of corporations, educate your friends on these topics. We can't create the technology and suppress it for the 30+ years  of clinical trials and double-blind studies it would take to fully understand one drug. We also can't just stop manufacturing vehicles to convert their parts into hemp (Not saying we can't move faster than we are). You're focusing on the negatives of all these advances. It's like blaming drug dealers for people using drugs. The dealer wouldn't have a business if the user didn't demand the drug.

Edited by uber_aj (02/25/11 03:52 PM)

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14026423 - 02/25/11 04:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I didn't classify you of being anything, I said your post reeked of it (it is pretty paranoid)




Quote:

That post just reeks of :tinfoil:




This statement implies it. Implication is not classification, but its too close for comfort.

Quote:

Green technology is being increasingly researched. Ford now uses fungus to make one of their car parts. Things are changing in the petroleum based world b/c consumers are starting to demand cleaner, more environmentally sound products. We also demand cheap products, so most companies will continue to use petroleum based options until the green movement has become large enough to be more cost effective, or oil becomes to expensive and alternatives are necessary for a low price. I can't agree more with you that we should end our dependence on oil. Science and technology are the only reason we realize this, though.




I agree wholeheartedly; I hope my post didn't make me sound anti-technology. I just think that the driving forces in the tech industry are in it for wealth and not to improve mankind, which does make me a little paranoid, I suppose. It's like having a greedy unscrupulous scumbag for a landlord: sure he helps manage the property, but he only does it for the money so repairs and improvements are all late and half-assed.

Yes, it's the person not the technology that is responsible for good/evil deeds.

Quote:

GMO foods are in demand b/c of over-population. Many would call it unethical to let a couple billion people die of starvation when you have a way to feed them.




One could also argue that it is unethical to allow the planet's population to grow so rapidly without thought for the suffering and countless deaths brought on by poverty and hunger. Sure, it's nice to feed the hungry. But they make more hungry mouths, and more and more, and their children make more. 10 kids to a family is not a healthy rate of growth. It's like certain animal populations when there's an abundance of food one year; they breed so many that 90% of them die off by winter. We are headed for that same population collapse, thanks in part to GMO food.

Quote:

Even more, there has been no evidence of any kind that eating GMO foods is detrimental to humans.




I didn't say that there was. I do think that designing a plant's genetics to not produce seeds for next year's crop is an unethical and sick thing to do, not only to nature but to the farmers who have to put up with Monsanto's bullshit.

Quote:

The people who they were made to help can't afford to make that distinction (They're technically more "common man" than you)




Then they shouldn't have had that 5th child. Life's a bitch when you can't have a dozen offspring in a one bedroom apartment.

Quote:

Anyway, my point is that things aren't the way you're making them seem. It's all driven by the "common man" demanding these things and companies supplying them in imperfect ways. Nobody is forcing you to use these technologies, so the companies aren't fucking over the average Joe, the average Joe fucks himself over by voting against government regulations, by buying inefficient cars, and by not having a clue what he puts into his body, b/c looking up the drug a doctor gives him takes a whole ten minutes of his time. If you want to see less people making stupid decisions that boost the profit margins of corporations, educate your friends on these topics. We can't create the technology and suppress it for the 30+ years  of clinical trials and double-blind studies it would take to fully understand one drug. We also can't just stop manufacturing vehicles to convert their parts into hemp (Not saying we can't move faster than we are). You're focusing on the negatives of all these advances. It's like blaming drug dealers for people using drugs. The dealer wouldn't have a business if the user didn't demand the drug.




We're pretty much on the same page here. I just think that the wealthy (95% of the wealth owned by 2% of the population) should show a little bit more restraint and caution. Not to say that the "common man" shouldn't be more responsible for his welfare. Instead of trying to patch up the problem with new technology and medicine people should just change the way they live. Treat the cause not the symptoms. A big part of the problem is lack of education, ignorance which many corporations earn a healthy profit from.

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OfflineherbalMedz
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14026697 - 02/25/11 05:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Im loving this discussion. im glad i posted the article..:popcorn::strokebeard:

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: herbalMedz]
    #14026754 - 02/25/11 05:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry if we got a little off-topic.
A government using psy-ops against its own people? Who'da thunk it?

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OfflineherbalMedz
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14026803 - 02/25/11 05:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i was being serious. ive been enjoying reading the debate.

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Invisibleuber_aj
Goodbye Shroomery!
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Registered: 11/13/05
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14027961 - 02/25/11 10:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah I was misreading your original post as an argument for restraining technology, I think Grav's post had a little sway in how I interpreted your words. I got the impression that you were blaming the infamous "them" for intentionally creating technologies to keep us down, that's why I thought it sounded conspiracy theorist.

We're in total agreement on most stuff, especially the loose cannon profiteering. As far as poor people go, IMO you gotta take into consideration that their governments and religions often discourage safe sex and that given their low survival rate, having a bunch of kids makes evolutionary sense. It's primitive but so their is their education. I know it's all bleeding heart liberal of me, but I think when we have the capability to feed a population this large, we should. That shouldn't mean that every farm in America is bullied into growing Monsanto seeds, but we'd only be overpopulated if we had to go back to relying on more organic agriculture on a mass scale (Only likely in the event of an oil crisis).

The most humane ways to reduce overpopulation would be to legalize prostitution and teach safe sex to kids instead of abstinence. Good luck convincing the religious right to do that, though.

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OfflineherbalMedz
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14029066 - 02/26/11 06:21 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

well just so you know none of what i posted were my words...

i just quoted the article from rolling stone as well as posted a link to the same article because i had a feeling it would start up an interesting conversation.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14029439 - 02/26/11 09:18 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Great post. I have come to share your views.  The common man is responsible for his choices even though I admit that often he/she gets programed to believe there is no choice but the one he's told to make.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: herbalMedz]
    #14029856 - 02/26/11 11:01 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Oh yeah, I realized that you were just quoting the article. I was very happy to see the article linked on Yahoo and a few other news spots after you posted it, its a really interesting topic to me and I think everybody should understand how sophisticated and calculated the military's propaganda machine is. Anything that is beyond their reach is contracted out to PR firms that don't have to follow the same laws, it's fucked up. All it takes is one idiot (coughBushcough) being mislead by these fuckers and next thing you know we're back in everlasting war.

Icelander, you're totally right. Ultimately it does come down on us for the choices we make which should be based on the knowledge we've accumulated, but are more often based on the false dichotomies the media feeds us. The marketing game is too good for our own good now, it's easy to manipulate the emotions and thought patterns of the civilian majority. If we could just place societal value on critical thinking instead of living beyond our means to one-up our neighbors... :grrr:

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OfflineGrav
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14030153 - 02/26/11 12:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
Yeah I was misreading your original post as an argument for restraining technology, I think Grav's post had a little sway in how I interpreted your words. I got the impression that you were blaming the infamous "them" for intentionally creating technologies to keep us down, that's why I thought it sounded conspiracy theorist.




i'm not arguing for restraining technology.  besides, that would require outright tyranny, as people naturally want to discover things.  if anything i think technology is too restrained and the public school system is designed to steer kids away from really understanding how energy works and instead occupying them with fluff.  how many hours have we spent reading novels, writing essays, or learning a school board's version of history when we could have been learning about electromagnetic energy and how it can be applied.  i think "they" only want a small percentage rising into this specialization to better control the flow of technology.  'the more we know' can often be inversely correlated with 'the profits & power of a few'

the works of Nicola Tesla in the early 20th century come to mind.  he had some breakthroughs with free energy application, but was squashed by his financiers because it was a threat to their profits.  i think you can find a lot of cases like this sprinkled throughout history, and I wonder why we don't learn about things like this in history class.

as far as 'keeping us down with technology',  well look around and you just have to wonder... society is incredibly wrapped up in the entertainment industry, TV, movies, games, music, youtube, facebook, iphones, the latest new gadget.  i'm not passing judgement, but you have to admit we have a generation largely preoccupied with eletronic recreation.  sometimes i wonder what everyone might be doing or thinking about without these things distracting them, and I also wonder what kind of information we are receiving subconsciously.  How much do we know about subliminal technology,  its potentials, and its effects on people?

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OfflineMushyHobo
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Registered: 02/28/11
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: herbalMedz]
    #14048272 - 03/01/11 12:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

herbalMedz said:
yes, that is an extremely good point as well.



Absolutely.  I think we need to invent a new form of public conscientiousness for our discourse, but also because we get trapped by internet influenced ways of thinking about the world.

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