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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Grav]
    #14024784 - 02/25/11 10:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Technology is neutral. When the first human figured out how to start a fire, some people realized that it had the potential to save lives and cook food, others saw it's potential for flaming arrows and village burn-downs. Like anything else: guns, drugs, oil, information, how we use it is all that matters. The same technology that got us to the moon sends cruise missiles at their targets. On the other hand, since technology has given the world superpowers the ability to destroy earth, there has been a stand-still in large scale warfare. It has also made it infinitely more critical that we not allow insane dictators to get control of our countries.

Your argument is valid, but again it comes back to the need for more people to be educated about these things and to have a broader view of the world. Intelligent people have a pretty good grasp on consciousness, the downsides of constant stimulation and exposure to radiation via cell phone receivers. It's hard to tell people to cut back though, b/c in all reality they'll probably still live to eighty.

Without the poisons saturating our food market, a third of the world's current population would've already starved to death. I prefer organic foods and I think Monsanto is a wholly corrupt enterprise, but GMO foods are a necessary evil in some regard. Same as pharmaceuticals. Sure some of them are over prescribed, toxic drugs that lazy, ignorant people feed to their overstimulated children. The majority save and improve lives of people who do have real diseases though. As much as we want to complain about the medical industry's shortcomings, we live 2x as long as our ancestors. I still have my left arm today b/c of our understanding of bacterial infection and physical therapy. There's a high chance you or your mother would have died at birth without modern medicine.

The thing about science is that while it clearly isn't perfect, it fixes itself over time. We're toddlers in this game. Adolescence will be nanotechnology, age reversal therapy, artificially grown organs, artificially grown meat, etc. The entire time we'll have the capability to destroy ourselves entirely, but when has our species survival not been in jeopardy?

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OfflineGrav
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14024962 - 02/25/11 11:20 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I agree technology is neutral, but like you said it's application is not.  (and i think you'd be hard pressed to find un-applied technology)  And like you say for every application that can help, it can also be weaponized.  The problem I have is that we are always sold on the benefits, while the downsides go under the radar and are generally are far more difficult to get information about.  I think we are perpetually buying cars without looking under the hood.

Also we have secret technology constantly being researched and applied, and it seems like quite an act of faith to assume it's in good hands.

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Grav]
    #14025727 - 02/25/11 02:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Most people are just looking out for #1 including those who take government jobs. They don't have our (common citizens') best interests at heart. I wouldn't trust them just like I wouldn't trust a stranger. You can bet your ass that much of the new technology in development will be used for the benefit of private interests and the detriment of the common man.


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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: Grav]
    #14025737 - 02/25/11 02:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

We're not sold anything. Are you arguing that we should end technological advancement b/c big pharma isn't regulated well enough? We can't hold back technology for a hundred years to do immaculate, comprehensive research on everything. We get a lot of shit right, we get some shit wrong. Some of the wrong takes a long time to become evident to us (like overuse of fossil fuels). The important thing is that we correct the wrong over time. We sacrifice a little safety for a wealth of knowledge that will ultimately result in incredibly long life times and interplanetary living.

Dictators had an easy time controlling us without science and technology, it was the Dark ages. Now dictators are being overthrown left and right thanks to the internet and global communications. We're not in any increased risk of danger with technology than we would be without it.

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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14025789 - 02/25/11 02:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

That post just reeks of :tinfoil:

Much of the new technology in development is going to be used to benefit the common man to turn a profit. That's how this works. You seem to think scientists have some hidden agenda for why they're making discoveries. What detrimental technology do you believe is in the hands of "private interests," aka "Them?"

Before you answer, ask yourself if the example you're going to give is really driven by consumer demand from the common man...

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14025943 - 02/25/11 03:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What detrimental technology do you believe is in the hands of "private interests," aka "Them?"




Your attempt to classify me as a tinfoil hatter without knowing my full opinion saddens me; people these days are so judgmental. I don't even know you, have never spoken to you before and already you have me pinned as a nutter.

I apologize for using such a vague term as "private interests" which can mean anything from gay rights groups to the Israeli lobby in our capitol. For the purposes of this thread, when I say "private interests" I am talking about corporations who benefit monetarily from screwing over the middle and lower class.

Technological "breakthroughs" that inevitably cause more harm than good: Vioxx, Prozac, Aspartame, and a litany of other drugs and chemicals labeled as safe by various governmental oversight organizations, sometimes with prior knowledge of their harmful effects, and every time without having done sufficient testing of their safety; Big Pharma medications get pissed out by users and contaminate the water table. Directed sonic and microwave weapons touted as "non-lethal" and "humane" when really it's just a fancy new way to cause serious injury; continued development of petroleum-based products like cars and plastic when hemp could easily replace them (and is a renewable resource; seems like an obvious choice but greedy fucks don't want to turn down the heat on their 8th home); cancer treatments that are just as likely to kill as to cure; genetically modified food that doesn't produce seed just so the suits can make an extra buck, and has helped along the dire overpopulation problem; cloud seeding and weather modification technology is in widespread use under the guise of helping to stop global warming, which is complete bullshit.

Like Grav said, there are many technologies out there that we don't fully understand in regards to their effects human health. It's been demonstrated that people living near strong electric currents suffer a variety of health problems. Who's to say that all these frequencies we are bombarded with 24/7 are safe? I don't see people dropping dead so I doubt it's anything too serious, but I would still like to know what possible harm could come from new techs before some venture capitalist decides to throw caution to the wind just so he can afford another yacht.


--------------------

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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14026132 - 02/25/11 03:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't classify you of being anything, I said your post reeked of it (it is pretty paranoid), then I asked you to clarify. You, however, have implied that I'm judgmental based on your assumption. It's a simple miscommunication.

Pharmaceuticals aren't regulated well enough, I agree. They're pushed on us for profit and most have serious side effects. Still, it is the individual's choice to take an antidepressant rather than exercise and get out in the sun. Consumer demand drives this problem, and we still choose to take the pills even when the commercials and doctors give us a wordy description of the side effects. When Oxycontin was discovered to be misrepresented, the makers were sued for billions. Life is change. As more people realize that this is a problem, it will change like everything else.

Sonic and Microwave weapons aren't being widely used to my knowledge. Tasers are often used by overzealous police officers despite their ability to stop the heart, which happens frequently. Regardless, technology isn't to blame, without it they just would've beat you with clubs and maybe broken your spine. If people decide in the future that microwave and sonic weapons are an insufferable form of riot control we can move for a ban.

Green technology is being increasingly researched. Ford now uses fungus to make one of their car parts. Things are changing in the petroleum based world b/c consumers are starting to demand cleaner, more environmentally sound products. We also demand cheap products, so most companies will continue to use petroleum based options until the green movement has become large enough to be more cost effective, or oil becomes to expensive and alternatives are necessary for a low price. I can't agree more with you that we should end our dependence on oil. Science and technology are the only reason we realize this, though.

GMO foods are in demand b/c of over-population. Many would call it unethical to let a couple billion people die of starvation when you have a way to feed them. Even more, there has been no evidence of any kind that eating GMO foods is detrimental to humans. If you don't want to take the risk, don't eat GMO foods. The people who they were made to help can't afford to make that distinction (They're technically more "common man" than you). Monsanto's business ethics are hardly defensible, no argument there. Still, we now have large organic sections at grocery stores b/c people have started to demand nonGMO foods.

Anyway, my point is that things aren't the way you're making them seem. It's all driven by the "common man" demanding these things and companies supplying them in imperfect ways. Nobody is forcing you to use these technologies, so the companies aren't fucking over the average Joe, the average Joe fucks himself over by voting against government regulations, by buying inefficient cars, and by not having a clue what he puts into his body, b/c looking up the drug a doctor gives him takes a whole ten minutes of his time. If you want to see less people making stupid decisions that boost the profit margins of corporations, educate your friends on these topics. We can't create the technology and suppress it for the 30+ years  of clinical trials and double-blind studies it would take to fully understand one drug. We also can't just stop manufacturing vehicles to convert their parts into hemp (Not saying we can't move faster than we are). You're focusing on the negatives of all these advances. It's like blaming drug dealers for people using drugs. The dealer wouldn't have a business if the user didn't demand the drug.

Edited by uber_aj (02/25/11 03:52 PM)

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14026423 - 02/25/11 04:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I didn't classify you of being anything, I said your post reeked of it (it is pretty paranoid)




Quote:

That post just reeks of :tinfoil:




This statement implies it. Implication is not classification, but its too close for comfort.

Quote:

Green technology is being increasingly researched. Ford now uses fungus to make one of their car parts. Things are changing in the petroleum based world b/c consumers are starting to demand cleaner, more environmentally sound products. We also demand cheap products, so most companies will continue to use petroleum based options until the green movement has become large enough to be more cost effective, or oil becomes to expensive and alternatives are necessary for a low price. I can't agree more with you that we should end our dependence on oil. Science and technology are the only reason we realize this, though.




I agree wholeheartedly; I hope my post didn't make me sound anti-technology. I just think that the driving forces in the tech industry are in it for wealth and not to improve mankind, which does make me a little paranoid, I suppose. It's like having a greedy unscrupulous scumbag for a landlord: sure he helps manage the property, but he only does it for the money so repairs and improvements are all late and half-assed.

Yes, it's the person not the technology that is responsible for good/evil deeds.

Quote:

GMO foods are in demand b/c of over-population. Many would call it unethical to let a couple billion people die of starvation when you have a way to feed them.




One could also argue that it is unethical to allow the planet's population to grow so rapidly without thought for the suffering and countless deaths brought on by poverty and hunger. Sure, it's nice to feed the hungry. But they make more hungry mouths, and more and more, and their children make more. 10 kids to a family is not a healthy rate of growth. It's like certain animal populations when there's an abundance of food one year; they breed so many that 90% of them die off by winter. We are headed for that same population collapse, thanks in part to GMO food.

Quote:

Even more, there has been no evidence of any kind that eating GMO foods is detrimental to humans.




I didn't say that there was. I do think that designing a plant's genetics to not produce seeds for next year's crop is an unethical and sick thing to do, not only to nature but to the farmers who have to put up with Monsanto's bullshit.

Quote:

The people who they were made to help can't afford to make that distinction (They're technically more "common man" than you)




Then they shouldn't have had that 5th child. Life's a bitch when you can't have a dozen offspring in a one bedroom apartment.

Quote:

Anyway, my point is that things aren't the way you're making them seem. It's all driven by the "common man" demanding these things and companies supplying them in imperfect ways. Nobody is forcing you to use these technologies, so the companies aren't fucking over the average Joe, the average Joe fucks himself over by voting against government regulations, by buying inefficient cars, and by not having a clue what he puts into his body, b/c looking up the drug a doctor gives him takes a whole ten minutes of his time. If you want to see less people making stupid decisions that boost the profit margins of corporations, educate your friends on these topics. We can't create the technology and suppress it for the 30+ years  of clinical trials and double-blind studies it would take to fully understand one drug. We also can't just stop manufacturing vehicles to convert their parts into hemp (Not saying we can't move faster than we are). You're focusing on the negatives of all these advances. It's like blaming drug dealers for people using drugs. The dealer wouldn't have a business if the user didn't demand the drug.




We're pretty much on the same page here. I just think that the wealthy (95% of the wealth owned by 2% of the population) should show a little bit more restraint and caution. Not to say that the "common man" shouldn't be more responsible for his welfare. Instead of trying to patch up the problem with new technology and medicine people should just change the way they live. Treat the cause not the symptoms. A big part of the problem is lack of education, ignorance which many corporations earn a healthy profit from.

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OfflineherbalMedz
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14026697 - 02/25/11 05:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Im loving this discussion. im glad i posted the article..:popcorn::strokebeard:

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: herbalMedz]
    #14026754 - 02/25/11 05:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry if we got a little off-topic.
A government using psy-ops against its own people? Who'da thunk it?

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OfflineherbalMedz
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14026803 - 02/25/11 05:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i was being serious. ive been enjoying reading the debate.

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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: SWEDEN]
    #14027961 - 02/25/11 10:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah I was misreading your original post as an argument for restraining technology, I think Grav's post had a little sway in how I interpreted your words. I got the impression that you were blaming the infamous "them" for intentionally creating technologies to keep us down, that's why I thought it sounded conspiracy theorist.

We're in total agreement on most stuff, especially the loose cannon profiteering. As far as poor people go, IMO you gotta take into consideration that their governments and religions often discourage safe sex and that given their low survival rate, having a bunch of kids makes evolutionary sense. It's primitive but so their is their education. I know it's all bleeding heart liberal of me, but I think when we have the capability to feed a population this large, we should. That shouldn't mean that every farm in America is bullied into growing Monsanto seeds, but we'd only be overpopulated if we had to go back to relying on more organic agriculture on a mass scale (Only likely in the event of an oil crisis).

The most humane ways to reduce overpopulation would be to legalize prostitution and teach safe sex to kids instead of abstinence. Good luck convincing the religious right to do that, though.

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OfflineherbalMedz
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14029066 - 02/26/11 06:21 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

well just so you know none of what i posted were my words...

i just quoted the article from rolling stone as well as posted a link to the same article because i had a feeling it would start up an interesting conversation.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14029439 - 02/26/11 09:18 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Great post. I have come to share your views.  The common man is responsible for his choices even though I admit that often he/she gets programed to believe there is no choice but the one he's told to make.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleuber_aj
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: herbalMedz]
    #14029856 - 02/26/11 11:01 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Oh yeah, I realized that you were just quoting the article. I was very happy to see the article linked on Yahoo and a few other news spots after you posted it, its a really interesting topic to me and I think everybody should understand how sophisticated and calculated the military's propaganda machine is. Anything that is beyond their reach is contracted out to PR firms that don't have to follow the same laws, it's fucked up. All it takes is one idiot (coughBushcough) being mislead by these fuckers and next thing you know we're back in everlasting war.

Icelander, you're totally right. Ultimately it does come down on us for the choices we make which should be based on the knowledge we've accumulated, but are more often based on the false dichotomies the media feeds us. The marketing game is too good for our own good now, it's easy to manipulate the emotions and thought patterns of the civilian majority. If we could just place societal value on critical thinking instead of living beyond our means to one-up our neighbors... :grrr:

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OfflineGrav
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: uber_aj]
    #14030153 - 02/26/11 12:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

uber_aj said:
Yeah I was misreading your original post as an argument for restraining technology, I think Grav's post had a little sway in how I interpreted your words. I got the impression that you were blaming the infamous "them" for intentionally creating technologies to keep us down, that's why I thought it sounded conspiracy theorist.




i'm not arguing for restraining technology.  besides, that would require outright tyranny, as people naturally want to discover things.  if anything i think technology is too restrained and the public school system is designed to steer kids away from really understanding how energy works and instead occupying them with fluff.  how many hours have we spent reading novels, writing essays, or learning a school board's version of history when we could have been learning about electromagnetic energy and how it can be applied.  i think "they" only want a small percentage rising into this specialization to better control the flow of technology.  'the more we know' can often be inversely correlated with 'the profits & power of a few'

the works of Nicola Tesla in the early 20th century come to mind.  he had some breakthroughs with free energy application, but was squashed by his financiers because it was a threat to their profits.  i think you can find a lot of cases like this sprinkled throughout history, and I wonder why we don't learn about things like this in history class.

as far as 'keeping us down with technology',  well look around and you just have to wonder... society is incredibly wrapped up in the entertainment industry, TV, movies, games, music, youtube, facebook, iphones, the latest new gadget.  i'm not passing judgement, but you have to admit we have a generation largely preoccupied with eletronic recreation.  sometimes i wonder what everyone might be doing or thinking about without these things distracting them, and I also wonder what kind of information we are receiving subconsciously.  How much do we know about subliminal technology,  its potentials, and its effects on people?

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OfflineMushyHobo
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Re: Army Deploys Psy-Ops on U.S. Senators [Re: herbalMedz]
    #14048272 - 03/01/11 12:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

herbalMedz said:
yes, that is an extremely good point as well.



Absolutely.  I think we need to invent a new form of public conscientiousness for our discourse, but also because we get trapped by internet influenced ways of thinking about the world.

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