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AlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
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This is what I have been talking about for a while now. The subconcious fears that religion porpogated in us as children.
I think its behind aversions towards homosexuality, sexual dysfunction, fear of the afterlife, i believe it even has a hand in fear of others opinions as well.
Countless times I have heard from self-proclaimed aethiest who were brought up religiously that they don't feel comfortable with homosexuality and even some saying it just feels wrong.
Always things like these made me question what could possibly be behind this, but now it makes more sense than ever.
I too suffer from this upbringing. What has helped me alot is reading into the bible!!! Believe it or not!
Also, its good to look at near death experiences and explore your ideas of the afterlife and the experiences of ghosts etc.
It's also not a bad idea to watch the exorcist or any movie that has this element intrinsic to it and critique it with your new found thoughts about god/religion.
Good luck!
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



Registered: 05/16/05
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Loc: Love's Secret Domain
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AlphaFalfa said: I too suffer from this upbringing. What has helped me alot is reading into the bible!!! Believe it or not!
Didn't know we had that in common.
I am not an atheist (nor christian in the proper sense) I will try to ease OP by pointing out that the notion of "hell" in traditional christianity is false.
Judiasm (christianity's parent, right?) believes in reincarnation, but not hell. The word in the old Testament that you read as "hell" in your bible is if memory serves "sheol" meaning "ground" or "earth." When yo die, you go into "hell" or the ground.
The new testament has several terms masquerading as hell, but none of them really are, save MAYBE one.
We have "hades" which comes from greek mythology, of course. If you want to stay out of hades, start reading Greek mythology, not the bible.
Another term described a place outside the city where trash was burned. This was used, as a metaphor, by jesus one time. The intended meaning seemed to be (to me) "if you do this kind of thing, you belong in a garbage dump."
The final term is used in the book of Revelation, which is of pretty shoddy believability. And it does, indeed, talk about a lake of fire. But that was a big long hallucinatory rant that was not exactly "connected" with the rest of the bible and its "hells."
If there is an afterlife, it's probably nothing like we've imagined.
Check out the book Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts for one interesting, if a little odd and new-age, perspective on that.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
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AlphaFalfa
imagine


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2 Peter 2:4-5 says, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment."
Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"
Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
Mark 9:47 says, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."
Were you saying that the bible inconsistently mentions a hell?
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



Registered: 05/16/05
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I am speaking of the meanings of the original hebrew and greek words used in the types of passages you quote.
Many of these words are translated to mean something that differs from the original meanings--the word "hell" which is a term that is a more modern christian invention, though its conceptual origins lie in the "hades" of greek mythology.
Hades is, in fact, one of the words translated as "hell" in the new testament, in examples like the ones you gave.
Most of the talk of "hell" in the NT refers to "hades." Christ mentions "gehenna" (sp?) once, the garbage dump I mentioned, and "taraurus / tartaroo" is the "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelations.
If you trace the religion back to its origin Judaism, there is NO actual hell in the Old Testament. None. The word used is SHEOL which means "ground" or "earth."
I am saying even most modern "christains" (no offense to anyone present) don't really understand the origin of this term and the real meaning of the original words used in the original bible... which certainly doesn't lead to any clarity for those who only hear about the religion from the misinformed masses.
Remember, Christians, that once upon a time the Catholic Church was a very powerful political organization, and fear is a very powerful political tool. People were purposely deceived into submission and subservience by adding this element to the religion. Think about it. What we have as "hell" today is a remnant of that and ancient greece. Nothing more.
Edit, correction: There is another meaning for gehenna for JEWS which is a type of purgatory.
Here, check this out. This lists all the biblical terms that get translated to "hell." Maybe this will help shed some light.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Biblical_words_translated_as_.22Hell.22
And apparently "tartarus" is also a word AND CONCEPT FROM GREEK culture. And if I'm not mistaken is only used in Revelations, which, IMO, is one of the books they should have left on the cutting room floor at nicea.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
Edited by CidneyIndole (02/25/11 03:49 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: 2 Peter 2:4-5 says, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment."
Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"
Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
Mark 9:47 says, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."
Were you saying that the bible inconsistently mentions a hell?
I'm waiting for you buddy.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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AlphaFalfa
imagine


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Quote:
CidneyIndole said: I am speaking of the meanings of the original hebrew and greek words used in the types of passages you quote.
Many of these words are translated to mean something that differs from the original meanings--the word "hell" which is a term that is a more modern christian invention, though its conceptual origins lie in the "hades" of greek mythology.
Hades is, in fact, one of the words translated as "hell" in the new testament, in examples like the ones you gave.
Most of the talk of "hell" in the NT refers to "hades." Christ mentions "gehenna" (sp?) once, the garbage dump I mentioned, and "taraurus / tartaroo" is the "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelations.
If you trace the religion back to its origin Judaism, there is NO actual hell in the Old Testament. None. The word used is SHEOL which means "ground" or "earth."
I am saying even most modern "christains" (no offense to anyone present) don't really understand the origin of this term and the real meaning of the original words used in the original bible... which certainly doesn't lead to any clarity for those who only hear about the religion from the misinformed masses.
Remember, Christians, that once upon a time the Catholic Church was a very powerful political organization, and fear is a very powerful political tool. People were purposely deceived into submission and subservience by adding this element to the religion. Think about it. What we have as "hell" today is a remnant of that and ancient greece. Nothing more.
Edit, correction: There is another meaning for gehenna for JEWS which is a type of purgatory.
Here, check this out. This lists all the biblical terms that get translated to "hell." Maybe this will help shed some light.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Biblical_words_translated_as_.22Hell.22
And apparently "tartarus" is also a word AND CONCEPT FROM GREEK culture. And if I'm not mistaken is only used in Revelations, which, IMO, is one of the books they should have left on the cutting room floor at nicea. 
But there is mention of a burning place in the 4 main books? Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"
Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
This???
What is the relevance of what you say to this, boss?
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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AlphaFalfa
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Re: Hell anxiety..... [Re: Icelander]
#14025160 - 02/25/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Icelander said:
Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: 2 Peter 2:4-5 says, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment."
Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"
Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
Mark 9:47 says, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."
Were you saying that the bible inconsistently mentions a hell?
I'm waiting for you buddy.
That actually scared me subconciously. My mind went like "NO WONDER he is so liberal"!!!

The book does say that the devil is the utmost deceiver.

Oh man, time to do like an electrician and do some re-wiring.
Anybody have some rubber gloves?
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 4,761
Loc: Love's Secret Domain
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: But there is mention of a burning place in the 4 main books? Luke 16:22-24 uses a parable to describe hell: "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'"
Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
This???
What is the relevance of what you say to this, boss?
How many of the passages you quote actually mention burning? This concept is actually seen but not as much as you would think, in the bible.
Any of the passages that related to fire: find an online concordance, it's not hard. Figure out what the original greek is. I almost guarantee it is "HADES."
The concept of a fiery underworld, as I mentioned, is a bastardization of greek mythology. They combined this, I believe, with the existing Jewish notion of "Sheol" which is a kind of purgatory, and does not last forever.
Also when looking for such passages, I please ask you to focus on passages that describe "hell" as we know it. (fiery places of eternal damnation, etc.) Because the "torture" that is mentioned in some passages, is actually talking about the "torture" of being separate from god. Separation from god as punishment goes back to the OT.
Again, I will concede that the only place you'll find any such description is in the book of revelation which was penned by a lunatic, most likely on a trip. Not saying that necessarily, automatically invalidates it. But I am saying you should not connect it so heavily to the rest of the religion. It is dogmatically improper.
That would be like me invalidating atheism in its entirety as illogical because ONE atheist from the group makes a crazy statement in a forum post that doesn't jibe with the rest of the philosophy. Talk about judgmental.
The NT does talk about a "second death" or "death of the soul". This is actually what is supposed to happen when one is "thrown in the lake of fire" if I remember correctly. You don't burn forever-- your soul dies. I'm not sure if you see that particular concept outside of Revelation. But again, it does not describe torture.
Remember the bible is a collection of books, not one book, which is why you get some inconsistency, ESPECIALLY in the new testament, which contains almost equal measures of worth and bullshit.
Not all christian authors agreed, and not all christians today even agree that the proper thing was done at nicea.
Christianity was originally a mystical sect of judaism--which does not have a hell.
Are you a christian? Because it seems as though you really want there to be a fiery torturous hell in this religion when it is a more recent societal invention, and I'm having a hard time understanding why.
What is your agenda?
PS-- "God," (neither the "real" one, nor that of the Republicans) also does NOT hate homosexuality, if you were still under that misconception. It's not a sin, and there is no hell to send you to for it. I'm sorry all the other jerks got it wrong?
Edited by CidneyIndole (02/25/11 01:14 PM)
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AlphaFalfa
imagine


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My agenda?
I was just wondering what you thought about these passages because you seem to have a different conception of hell.

I don't want there to be a hell, but I don't think there is anything to say that there is one.
You seem to think that hell in terms of burning/brimstone punishment for sin does not exist in the bible.
I am not sure why you think that, this is all.
Can you elaborate on the point about not all books are consistent.
I don't see any way around believing in hell and still being a christian tis' all.
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



Registered: 05/16/05
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: My agenda?
I was just wondering what you thought about these passages because you seem to have a different conception of hell.

I don't want there to be a hell, but I don't think there is anything to say that there is one.
You seem to think that hell in terms of burning/brimstone punishment for sin does not exist in the bible.
I am not sure why you think that, this is all.
Can you elaborate on the point about not all books are consistent.
I don't see any way around believing in hell and still being a christian tis' all.
No, hell is mentioned as punishment from the beginning. Just that in the OT (Old Testament) the word is "sheol" or "ground." And there is no fire. And there is no torture, EXCEPT that of the agony of separation from god. (And maybe "thinking about what you've done," like a bad kid, till dad forgives you?" hahaha)
So a passage saying something like "the payment for thus and such is sheol" is telling you that this will lead to "the ground" or "death."
Second to that we have the Jewish purgatory which is not a permanent state of torture (nor anything like hades, far as I know)
While the Old Testament is not disputed much in the religion (nor should it be, IMO as that is the foundation) it must be understood that the same is not true of the New Testament.
As the name suggests it's much newer, and also the work of quite a number more authors than the OT. So we get more of a "too many cooks" effect.
There are a number of christian (New Testament) books which were widely circulated in earlier christianity that are NOT currently in our bible. This is because of the decision of the council of Nicea, which determined the present cannon of literature.
Things in the religion had grown too far and gotten to messy, and they needed to come to an agreement on what the religion was (this is the public, common story... I believe there was also political agenda at the council.)
-------------------- Perhaps think of it like psychedelics. If psychedelics were a religion that started only a bit over 40 years ago. The original "gospel" was some lit by hoffman. A little more literature is written as more are initiated into the mysteries. Then Leary gets his hands on the shit, and the gospel starts to change.
Now it's not only spreading but changing with lightning speed. And we get some Keseys and some D.M.Turners.... we get some McKennas, an Alan Watts, an RAW and then later on maybe a Pinchbeck.... by now what has the message become? How many authors? What is the topic again, even? Suddenly, what began as a small group of initiates that were in full agreement on how to handle this thing, has now become a big public mass of people who can barely agree one a SINGLE thing. ---------------------------------
I guess Christianity and Psychedelics have this in common.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
Edited by CidneyIndole (02/25/11 01:35 PM)
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