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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014590 - 02/23/11 03:44 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

A number does not describe an apple or an enemy.

What has "correct" got to do with it?  "Useful" is the important term. Numbers are useful or we wouldn't have needed that concept.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014619 - 02/23/11 03:49 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

You raise a perfect point! It does not describe AN apple or AN enemy. But it does describe more than one of those things...

It's funny how the language we use actually speaks for us... because I'm sure you did not actually realise what you were saying.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014784 - 02/23/11 04:20 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

It does not describe AN apple or AN enemy. But it does describe more than one of those things..

no it does not. If I say "there were two" how do you know it was apples or enemies?

I usually realize what I'm saying.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (02/23/11 04:28 PM)

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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014804 - 02/23/11 04:24 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Numbers are within nature, Fibonacci sequences are everywhere, and existed before we did.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter]
    #14014816 - 02/23/11 04:27 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Show me a number out in nature. I've spent years in the backcountry and never encountered a number.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014853 - 02/23/11 04:34 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/fibslide/jbfibslide.htm

read my friend, obviously the symbol we use for the number one or 2 is of human construct but the concept of a singularity vs. duality or multiples existed before us. this does not mean math though, what does constitute math is an interaction of the amounts of things that we have learned to measure and record and observe and learn from the surroundings around us. math is an observation that we created a language for.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter] * 1
    #14014886 - 02/23/11 04:41 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Numbers are within nature, Fibonacci sequences are everywhere, and existed before we did.

Did the Meter exist before humans?

I'm pretty sure there were plants 1 Meter tall, and rocks of 1 Meter diameter.

But the Meter didn't exist until we came along and said "that plant is 1 Meter tall".

Same goes for math and for the same reasons.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14014905 - 02/23/11 04:43 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

He jumped in late I'm guessing and didn't read all the posts cause I think we've covered this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14014915 - 02/23/11 04:46 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

that is simply distance though, i dont think your understanding the idea that we learned that every single pinecone on this earth uses the same pattern for its little nubs, and that that pattern we learned to express into numbers, it also shows up in pineapples, sunflowers and on and on. it is not a tool to measure with it is an equation to figure out and predict what has happened and what will happen, it is the math that the earth uses to create. we just figured it out along the way. a meter is arbitrary it is a human made piece of measurement, not an observation of surroundings. not the same


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter] * 1
    #14014936 - 02/23/11 04:50 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

i dont think your understanding the idea that we learned that every single pinecone on this earth uses the same pattern for its little nubs, and that that pattern we learned to express into numbers

I'm not denying that there is a pattern. I'm denying that the pattern needs numbers to exist.

Show me the number in a pine cone. Bet you can't.

Show me the number in an equation that models the pine cone. Bet you'll find it that time.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14015661 - 02/23/11 06:51 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

It seems like we have differing definition of what "numbers" are...

Half of us are saying that numbers are part of language and the other half are saying that numbers are actually independent from language.

To the people who believe numbers came after humans then please explain time...

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015783 - 02/23/11 07:12 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Time is also a human construct and is based on the same idea as two apples or two enemies.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015823 - 02/23/11 07:19 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
To the people who believe numbers came after humans then please explain time...




You should explain the relevance first.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015836 - 02/23/11 07:20 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea.

Time exists with or without us.

Hours and minutes exist because we defined them to quantize time. Time doesn't need hours or minutes to exist.

You still haven't shown me where the pine cone's numbers are that you insist it possess.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14015869 - 02/23/11 07:28 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

ok let's get this very clear.

"hours", "minutes", "meters", "two", "three" are all WORDS which are part of language.

If we follow your reasoning then we would say that humans created everything. That snow didn't exist before we created the word "snow".

Why are you separating number from language? I don't understand

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015892 - 02/23/11 07:31 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

If we follow your reasoning then we would say that humans created everything. That snow didn't exist before we created the word "snow".

You're kidding right? You haven't understood any of what we've been saying cause we certainly haven't been saying that.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015896 - 02/23/11 07:32 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

"hours", "minutes", "meters", "two", "three" are all WORDS which are part of language.

Yes, but 1 meter is a numeric quantity that a bush 1 meter tall does not depend on for existing.

If we follow your reasoning then we would say that humans created everything. That snow didn't exist before we created the word "snow".

Snow is a thing. Numbers are descriptors of things that those things do need to exist.

1 kilogram of snow can exist with or without the definition of 1 or the definition of kilogram which were invented by humans long after snow already existed without their definition.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14015908 - 02/23/11 07:36 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

1 kilogram of snow can exist with or without the definition of 1 or the definition of kilogram which were invented by humans long after snow already existed without their definition.




Yes exactly. This is what I have been saying...

But how can you say that it isn't dependent on number for existing? Snow requires a certain number of water molecules in order for it to exist.

Just because there weren't words to describe how many molecules existed doesn't mean that the number of them wasn't crucial!

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015940 - 02/23/11 07:41 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Snow requires a certain number of water molecules in order for it to exist.

I agree that snow requires water molecules, and I can look and see them for myself.

Now show me where in snow the numbers are. I can't see any so help me out. Point to them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14016251 - 02/23/11 08:38 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)



But seriously I don't think I can help you cos you're missing my point...

We are just going to repeat ourselves ad infinitum

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