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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: deCypher]
#14021645 - 02/24/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Icelander said: If I could be in this amazing state of enlightenment I would think resisting temptation over a little sex on the side would be really easy.
Are you saying that an enlightened person would have to be infallible and incapable of making a mistake?
That was a purposeful "mistake" which = no mistake.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: Icelander]
#14021659 - 02/24/11 06:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Right, he chose to succumb to temptation but I'm asking whether you think an enlightened person would never do so.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: deCypher]
#14021681 - 02/24/11 06:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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On any issue of consequences yes he would not be in error. Otherwise I'm enlightened dude.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



Registered: 05/16/05
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Loc: Love's Secret Domain
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: Icelander]
#14022425 - 02/24/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I read the other thread, and to me it seems like the guy was a charlatan and got caught. But I think a good skeptic like you knew that, which is why it might come off to some like you were just trying to reinforce a belief.
While I agree this guy was probably a fake, it does not mean that "actually enlightened" individuals are no longer human, and might not slip up. Furthermore...
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Icelander said: Well then his sex energy was the most powerful thing for him. Cause if I had this bliss of enlightenment I think I could forgo the affair, especially if I already had a wife.
A lot of forms of spirituality recognize sex as a spiritual act, and do indeed believe that "sexual energy" is very powerful. So maybe your hypothesis there was spot on.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
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CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: deCypher] 1
#14022434 - 02/24/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Right, he chose to succumb to temptation but I'm asking whether you think an enlightened person would never do so.
I think that if one were able to resist temptation perpetually, that would make one something other than what is commonly acknowledged as human.
I believe the entire psychology of a being like that would be different than what we know.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: Icelander]
#14022449 - 02/24/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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According to Buddhist literature, and Gautama, full Buddhahood (Arhat), or even an Anāgāmi would have no sexual desire, and it would be impossible to make such a mistake.
I would assume a Zen priest would make a vow of celibacy, but would still carry sexual desires and may act upon them. The biggest mistake was claiming to be a master... though at 50k per person, it was working out good there for a while. At that price, he's proven himself quite foolish because air fare and hookers were affordable.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
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Quote:
CidneyIndole said: I think that if one were able to resist temptation perpetually, that would make one something other than what is commonly acknowledged as human.
I believe the entire psychology of a being like that would be different than what we know.
Well....yeah. 
Otherwise enlightenment is just the result of extreme discipline. As impressive as any athletic achievement or other performance, but ultimately no more meaningful than balancing a checkbook.
IF enlightenment is real IMO it involves the complete removal of the ego...where the human being changes into a living breathing human body Avatar for whatever it is we're all looking for.
To be more by being less.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: Cups]
#14023339 - 02/24/11 11:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think that's a good ideal to strive for, but I'm skeptical as to its attainability. To me, an enlightened person would be exactly what you dismiss as being no more meaningful than balancing a checkbook: a person who, after working for years with extreme discipline and dedication, has been able to sufficiently master their neurotic psychology (and isn't everything ultimately meaningless objectively anyway? ). Not some superhero who is perfect 24/7 and incapable of making mistakes, but rather a man or woman who is a leap ahead of the majority in terms of being able to transcend the egoistic instincts most of us blindly follow.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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c0sm0nautt

Registered: 05/19/08
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: deCypher] 1
#14023425 - 02/25/11 12:14 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Not some superhero who is perfect 24/7 and incapable of making mistakes, but rather a man or woman who is a leap ahead of the majority in terms of being able to transcend the egoistic instincts most of us blindly follow.
That makes a lot of sense. Honestly, recognizing my ego has just become another ego-game for me. I feel like I'm chasing my own tail sometimes.
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CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: deCypher]
#14023913 - 02/25/11 03:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I do think that discipline is a big deal--not the only important aspect of "enlightenment," by a long shot, but I do think you hit the nail on the head with mentioning discipline of one's own psychology.
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
Edited by CidneyIndole (02/25/11 03:27 AM)
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: deCypher]
#14024426 - 02/25/11 08:49 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: I think that's a good ideal to strive for, but I'm skeptical as to its attainability.
Well excuse me for having higher standards. 
Quote:
To me, an enlightened person would be exactly what you dismiss as being no more meaningful than balancing a checkbook: a person who, after working for years with extreme discipline and dedication, has been able to sufficiently master their neurotic psychology (and isn't everything ultimately meaningless objectively anyway? ). Not some superhero who is perfect 24/7 and incapable of making mistakes, but rather a man or woman who is a leap ahead of the majority in terms of being able to transcend the egoistic instincts most of us blindly follow.
But to what end? Without meaning there is literally nothing to be gained...either for you or the world by doing this. This is why buddhism has lost its appeal for me lately.
You can skirt this question by focusing solely on the present moment...and I can do this quite well with a bit of effort...but it's not enough at the end of the day. IMO
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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deCypher



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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: Cups]
#14024551 - 02/25/11 09:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I take subjective meaning from increased happiness, and I see becoming enlightened according to this definition as a way to increase my general happiness.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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ivander
Paragon of Animal



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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: Icelander]
#14024661 - 02/25/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Icelander said: My intention was to offer a different perspective on things as on everything I do on this forum.
How is this not wanting to make a point?
Well you can look at it like that, but I dont. Points are already available, I am not making them. Beside I never mentioned a 'point', that is something you seem to seek.
On the other hand, after reading everything else said... I know you guys heard about asexual people, so are they then enlightened already, if their choice of profession is to be zen masters? Just something for brain to chew.
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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: ivander]
#14024689 - 02/25/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Making points = sharing perspectives is what forum discussion is all about. It's what everyone is doing here, even if your point is to be neutral.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ivander
Paragon of Animal



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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: Icelander]
#14024727 - 02/25/11 10:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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If I look up at the sun and say.. its the big shining ball. Am I, good, bad or neutral(for,against,neutral)? Am i making any point?
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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.
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NastyDHL



Registered: 04/04/08
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: Icelander]
#14024731 - 02/25/11 10:24 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Icelander said: I posted this http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13994560 here about a high up Zen Master who was caught lying/cheating and having an affair.
Now if enlightenment and the benefits of bliss and satori and all that are so amazing then why did this happen to him? If I could be in this amazing state of enlightenment I would think resisting temptation over a little sex on the side would be really easy.
Can someone explain this?
I haven't read any of this thread but just because someone is labeled as something doesn't mean they are truly what they label is supposed to signify. It could mean many other things though...
Bliss and satori are glimpses of infinity. I don't know if its possible to really maintain that amazing of a state of enlightenment as you are only human and you will have so many forces underneath bubbling to the surface to eventually taint your conscious focus...just glimpses though they may permanently alter your sight...
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Icelander
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: ivander]
#14024756 - 02/25/11 10:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
ivander said: If I look up at the sun and say.. its the big shining ball. Am I, good, bad or neutral(for,against,neutral)? Am i making any point?
You are now trying to make the point that you are not trying to make a point.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: NastyDHL]
#14024775 - 02/25/11 10:33 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
NastyDHL said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I posted this http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13994560 here about a high up Zen Master who was caught lying/cheating and having an affair.
Now if enlightenment and the benefits of bliss and satori and all that are so amazing then why did this happen to him? If I could be in this amazing state of enlightenment I would think resisting temptation over a little sex on the side would be really easy.
Can someone explain this?
I haven't read any of this thread but just because someone is labeled as something doesn't mean they are truly what they label is supposed to signify. It could mean many other things though...
Bliss and satori are glimpses of infinity. I don't know if its possible to really maintain that amazing of a state of enlightenment as you are only human and you will have so many forces underneath bubbling to the surface to eventually taint your conscious focus...just glimpses though they may permanently alter your sight...
Would these glimpses alter your sight enough that you would not be compelled to lie to your wife, cheat on your wife, lie to your fellow teachers, peers and students and in the mean time charge them up to $50,000 per seminar?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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ivander
Paragon of Animal



Registered: 11/01/08
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: Icelander]
#14024788 - 02/25/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
ivander said: If I look up at the sun and say.. its the big shining ball. Am I, good, bad or neutral(for,against,neutral)? Am i making any point?
You are now trying to make the point that you are not trying to make a point. 
Yes, on different subject entirely. Which was not the case regarding the main subject. And I am willing to make a point when asked to.
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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
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Re: Can somebody answer this? [Re: deCypher]
#14025025 - 02/25/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: I take subjective meaning from increased happiness, and I see becoming enlightened according to this definition as a way to increase my general happiness.
I take subjective meaning from increased happiness and I see beating little girls to death with a bat as a way to increase my general happiness.
I hear what you are saying but are you really prepared to accept the realities of this view?
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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