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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14012374 - 02/23/11 08:45 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Stars.  Such places where a lot of matter has come together existed long before humans.  But the math that can be used to (partially) explain such a star was invented by us over the course of the past million years or so.




How do you invent something that it already there?

This maths you talk about is only symbols used to describe something which already exists.

Your argument is similar to saying that humans invented gold...

Sure we invented the word "gold" and the value of gold, and the ways to use gold. but the substance was in the earth's crust long before we discovered it.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14012398 - 02/23/11 08:55 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

This maths you talk about is only symbols used to describe something which already exists.




What is that something?  More importantly, if it already existed - where can I find it?

Math is like a map.  A map can model some geography, and that geography it models is not invented by man.  The map however is.  (Recall the famous expression, "The map is not the territory".)  Similarly, math is an invention used to model other phenomenon.  That phenomenon has always existed and is not invented by man.  But the math used to model it is invented by man.

Also note that all maps do not describe geography.  Some of them are a little wrong, and some are flat out wrong/fiction.  The same is true for math, there is math that does model reality and there is math that doesn't model reality.  We are free to invent whatever math we like, but if we are scientists or engineers then we are bound by having our math model reality (mathematicians have no such restriction).

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OfflineSmitington
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14012429 - 02/23/11 09:04 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

NUMBERS (not math), are just ways to QUANTIZE stuff.  Quantism is fundemantal to the universe.  Quantities are extremely important in everything, numbers are just symbols and words we have created to describe quantities.


--------------------

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14012444 - 02/23/11 09:07 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quantism huh?  I dont think making up words is a good way to prove a point.  :lol:


A number doesnt have any meaning outside of a mathematic paradigm, a paradigm which is necessarily built on axioms invented by humans with structure invented by humans.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14012713 - 02/23/11 10:10 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

  Numbers are a construct of the human mind - its as simple as that.

Of course although the effects of numbers were always present.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Posts: 29,258
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14012891 - 02/23/11 10:47 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

I dont think there are effects of numbers.  If there were, then numbers would have to exist before humans.  Numbers are the effect, the effect of consciousness describing and predicting phenomenon.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14012902 - 02/23/11 10:52 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

OK let me rephrase.  There are effects and we describe them with numbers.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14013416 - 02/23/11 01:00 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

numbers are a property of natures fundamental workings, they are
the representation of a constant scalar quantity of the universe.
The symbols and values come from us, but "mathematics" is a
constant.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14013425 - 02/23/11 01:02 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

numbers are a property of natures fundamental workings




Have any evidence to support this claim?

I dont believe you do.  I have studied nature's fundamental workings to some extent and have never found numbers to be fundamental to the workings.  Fundamental to the descriptions and predictions of the workings - yes, but not fundamental to the workings themselves.

Edited by DieCommie (02/23/11 01:08 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy] * 1
    #14013587 - 02/23/11 01:33 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

numbers are a property of natures fundamental workings

Not that I can see.

Take gravity. The planets were orbiting the sun long before we got here. But do the planets or the sun or the gravity between them have numbers as part of their constructions? Not that I can see.

There is a relationship between those entities that has nothing to do with numbers. The curvature of space is not a number or an equation. It's the curvature of space, period. It exists absent any mathematical description of its nature.

Enter humans who invented a way to describe that relationship, that curvature, very precisely using numbers, but the numbers themselves are not necessary (and are not present) for the relationship to exist.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineR2-D2
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14013640 - 02/23/11 01:41 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

R2-D2 said:
This question is undeniably impossible to answer at the given time, no? It seems like one of the more fundamental questions of reality to me :confused:




Not to me.  Numbers are a construct of the human mind - its as simple as that.  You cannot go out into the universe and find a number, they do not exist outside of our conceptualizations. 



Quote:

What came first, humans, or stars?  Well, aren't stars just a concept we created to explain places where a lot of matter has come together to form a giant radiation pumping thing?




Stars.  Such places where a lot of matter has come together existed long before humans.  But the math that can be used to (partially) explain such a star was invented by us over the course of the past million years or so.



I actually just realized I was wrong. Nothing came first!


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14013644 - 02/23/11 01:41 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

That's what I was trying to get at in my non clear not Diploid sort of way.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineeyeplanted
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014346 - 02/23/11 03:10 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

People came first, then numbers.

Unless there was another being before us that used numbers which is highly likely. Or highly unlikely, depending on how you look at the numbers.  :crazy2:

It's all just pattern recognition.


--------------------
Actual events may not have happened.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: eyeplanted]
    #14014396 - 02/23/11 03:17 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Ok just consider this question.

If people came first then how did they create numbers and why did they do it?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014407 - 02/23/11 03:18 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Most likely created them with objects such as fingers or sticks and used them to convey numbers of enemy or game and such.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014444 - 02/23/11 03:23 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

In doing so were they then not just describing existing phenomena?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014449 - 02/23/11 03:24 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Yes but the numbers were not the phenomena.

Two apples are not the same as two enemies.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014476 - 02/23/11 03:28 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

So that would mean there were multiple classes of phenomena and multiple subsets, and multiple individuals within subsets, all before humans existed?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014527 - 02/23/11 03:34 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Those are human concepts.

What we had was lots of things that we wanted to classify for personal gain.:laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014568 - 02/23/11 03:40 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

I just see number as a way of describing all of those things. Creating numbers wouldn't have changed anything about those objects that were already there.

How is speaking a number any more correct than not speaking it?

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