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Offlinejimbotron
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Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
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Re: Walker-ing over a cliff [Re: sixxy]
    #14015055 - 02/23/11 05:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sixxy said:
but right now while the country and states are withering because of poor fiscal policy, and these government workers still demanding more and more to shove into their fat spoiled mouths while everything else in the country deteriorates, well that is just such a perfect example of why the state of the union is shit right now.




Also, I really want to get pissed off over this, but there is a strong possibility you're simply ignorant.

So let's get one thing straight.

Are you aware that the unions have already unconditionally agreed to 100% of the benefit cuts and healthcare premium increases that the governor demanded? They've given up everything he asked. When you say that they are demanding more, when they have in fact made significant concessions, you are either lying or deeply misinformed. Which is it?

The ONLY point of contention is that the Governor wants to kill the union. He's already said in no uncertain terms that he doesn't care how much they give up; this isn't about the budget. This is about the union and how he wants it to die.

For christ's sake, he told 'David Koch' that he motivated his staff with the story of Ronald Reagan breaking up the air traffic controllers' union (which actually went on strike first, but whatever). HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE BUDGET.

Say it with me: HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE BUDGET. He blew the big gaping hole in it with his corporate tax cuts, after all.

Now, let's continue the discussion about how the unions are the headstrong bully here...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Walker-ing over a cliff [Re: jimbotron]
    #14015135 - 02/23/11 05:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Good fucking zappa it is 100% about the budget.  Today's budget and all of tommorow's budgets.  If you don't think collective bargaining by government employees isn't about money you just don't think.

Do you know who else was against government employees unionizing?  FDR.  You could look it up.


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Offlinesixxy
infidel delux
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 117
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Re: Walker-ing over a cliff [Re: jimbotron]
    #14017059 - 02/23/11 10:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:

Not particularly nuanced. Mind you, I completely understand what you're getting at; but you lose me when you claim that this is a situation unique to public unions.




then you dont know what Im talking about. when the government employee unions hustle for benifits that means our taxes will eventually have to go up. it means government grows, it means the individual is held hostage since these unions dont have to negotiate or even produce with or for the people who actually pay them. People in unions are forced to pay dues and have no say or opt out of the political use it is put twards. It means union leaders take their members money, to keep nanny staters in office who then take our money at gun point to pay for their codependant relationship.

Now, if you don’t see a huge difference with that and a private company who does some government contracts (and I challenge you to look up the political contributions they make, both democrats and republicans get some) taking some of the profits they earned by producing, then I cant make you understand


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taste the effing rainbow

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Offlinesixxy
infidel delux
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Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 117
Loc: behind the irony curtain
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Walker-ing over a cliff [Re: jimbotron]
    #14017084 - 02/23/11 10:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

sixxy said:
but right now while the country and states are withering because of poor fiscal policy, and these government workers still demanding more and more to shove into their fat spoiled mouths while everything else in the country deteriorates, well that is just such a perfect example of why the state of the union is shit right now.




Also, I really want to get pissed off over this, but there is a strong possibility you're simply ignorant.

So let's get one thing straight.

Are you aware that the unions have already unconditionally agreed to 100% of the benefit cuts and healthcare premium increases that the governor demanded? They've given up everything he asked. When you say that they are demanding more, when they have in fact made significant concessions, you are either lying or deeply misinformed. Which is it?




clearly you havent been watching actual footage of the protesters.


Quote:

The ONLY point of contention is that the Governor wants to kill the union. He's already said in no uncertain terms that he doesn't care how much they give up; this isn't about the budget. This is about the union and how he wants it to die.




awesome. is it weird if I think that is hot?


--------------------
taste the effing rainbow

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Walker-ing over a cliff [Re: sixxy]
    #14018773 - 02/24/11 08:41 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Jimbotron also falls into the trap of thinking that union equals member.  It does not.  That is why the unions are so afraid of requiring regular votes to continue, automatic dues deductions and the right to work at a job without being compelled to join a union. 

The union leaders do not really care about the union members, the taxpayer or the children.  They care about themselves.


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Offlinejimbotron
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Registered: 02/24/09
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Re: Walker-ing over a cliff [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14020205 - 02/24/11 02:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I keep seeing people conflate "collective bargaining" with "lobbying" and it makes no fucking sense at all. Walker must not allow unions to negotiate because they give money to Democrats? Oooookay... does not compute, does not belong in a budget bill. He's asked for concessions, the unions have made them, the only sticking point here is Walker's pathetic Reagan fanboy complex.

Furthermore, if that's the new standard for who gets rights and who doesn't, "corporate personhood" really ought to be on the chopping block as well, because last time I checked they spend a lot more money than unions.

Also, Zappa, Shep Smith spilled the beans:



They want to break the union to hurt the Democrats. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. FUCKING SHEP SMITH ON FOX NEWS KNOWS IT. The look on Juan Williams' face says it all. He looks like he wishes he had some of those runway traffic director light stick things to make an 'X' with.

Why do you continue to pretend that there are no political considerations whatsoever here? It's pathetic. Shit, I mean, somebody puts in a water fountain somewhere, there's probably a political consideration.

Edited by jimbotron (02/24/11 02:19 PM)

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Offlinejimbotron
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Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 2,324
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Re: Walker-ing over a cliff [Re: sixxy]
    #14020270 - 02/24/11 02:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sixxy said:
clearly you havent been watching actual footage of the protesters.




I have no earthly idea what this means.

The governor wants to cut their pensions and raise their health premiums. The union leadership has agreed to both, as have the members, in every news report I've seen (and if you really want to disagree with me, I will find you footage of union members saying that they're perfectly fine with the cuts).

http://www.danagoldstein.net/dana_goldstein/2011/02/reality-check-wisconsin-unions-have-already-agreed-to-major-concessions.html

Quote:

Earlier Friday, Marty Beil, head of the Wisconsin State Employees Union, said his members would agree to pay more of their pension contributions and health insurance benefits as Walker is demanding. But Beil said his union would never agree to give up decades-old bargaining rights.

Beil's union is part of AFSCME, the largest state and local employee union in Wisconsin, which represents 68,000 workers for the state, Milwaukee, Milwaukee County and other municipalities. An AFSCME spokesman said Beil was speaking for all the group's union locals in the state.

"We are prepared to implement the financial concessions proposed to help bring our state's budget into balance, but we will not be denied our God-given right to join a real union . . .  we will not - I repeat we will not - be denied our rights to collectively bargain," Beil said in a statement.

Mary Bell, the president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, the state's largest teachers union, said her group also would make the financial concessions to keep its bargaining rights.

"This is not about money," Bell said in a phone conference. "We understand the need to sacrifice."




Are you calling the union presidents liars, or are you calling me a liar, or do you just not even understand what I'm trying to communicate to you? I can't make any sense of your dismissive comments.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Walker-ing over a cliff [Re: jimbotron]
    #14020313 - 02/24/11 02:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Of course it's political.  Do you even know what that word means?  Politics is conflict resolution.  The conflict here is between taxpayers and the public employees.  I'm a taxpayer.  I want to pay less.  When the negotiators are bought off by one side that represents only them at the table what happens to the taxpayer?

I don't give two shits what Shep Smith or Juan Williams thinks.  Private sector unions have already done an admirable job of pretty much eliminating themselves by destroying the companies that are infested with them.  Public sector unions do not have that danger.  Government cannot be made obsolete or uncompetitive.

I don't believe I have seen anyone conflate collective bargaining with lobbying.  Certainly not me.


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OfflineMushyHobo
Stranger

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 45
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Walker-ing over a cliff [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14051097 - 03/01/11 08:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Government cannot be made obsolete or uncompetitive.





Too true.  Except when we get true E-Democracy.  I read this thing once.  It's gonna change everything.  Sounds like a utopia to me.

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