|
Vaped


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 12
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
What came first- people or numbers?
#14010074 - 02/22/11 09:17 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
What came first- people or numbers? I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped] 1
#14010077 - 02/22/11 09:18 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
People.
Here is an exchange I had with Zouden: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9842302#9842302
I didn't re-read it, so I may have posted some crap.
Edited by DieCommie (02/22/11 09:24 PM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie] 1
#14010085 - 02/22/11 09:20 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said: People.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Vaped


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 12
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
#14010088 - 02/22/11 09:20 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
And what leaves you to believe people came first? I'm not disagreeing with you, just would like to know your reasons.
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped]
#14010096 - 02/22/11 09:22 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Sorry, I was looking for a link. I posted it above.
|
Vaped


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 12
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
#14010157 - 02/22/11 09:30 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said: Sorry, I was looking for a link. I posted it above.
We did in fact create mathematics, it's nothing but a figment of our imagination. But isn't our imagination a "figment" of the universe? We are merely products of our environment. The very principles that "created" our imagination have existed long before humans came along.
According to quantum mechanics everything that could have happened, already has happened.
*Keep in mind, I'm merely playing devils advocate here. I've been wrestling with this debate for quite a while, and I can't really seem to get a decent understanding of it. Feel free to let me know if anything I'm assuming is incorrect.*
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped] 2
#14010317 - 02/22/11 09:55 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
People came first and they invented math to model the physical world (and sometimes for academic purposes, to expressly NOT model the physical world).
One argument against this is that 10 + 5 = 15, always has and always will.
But when you study math, one thing you'll quickly discover is modular arithmetic in Group Theory. The "Clock Group" is one example.
In math geek speak: the Set of positive integers modulus 12 endowed with the operator Addition and obeying the Group axioms of Closure, Associativity, Identity, and Inverses.
This works like a 12 hour clock.
What is 10 o'clock + 5? It's not 15 o'clock but rather 3 o'clock. So in this Group, 10 + 5 = 3.
Funny how that works eh?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 months, 16 days
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
#14010342 - 02/22/11 09:59 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: andrewss]
#14010358 - 02/22/11 10:01 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped]
#14010360 - 02/22/11 10:02 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Vaped said: What came first- people or numbers? I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.
Numbers were invented by humans as a way to understand the universe in a language called mathematics. Although i'm sure it started in a very basic way in counting things and trading goos "I'll give you 3 pigs and 1 horse for that plot of land."
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
damnyoumongorians
Kingdingdong



Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 340
Loc: fuck outta here!
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped]
#14010407 - 02/22/11 10:11 PM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
we just keep inventing different branches of math to explain the world. we invented 3d shapes because they are an exception to 2d math and they didnt fit into the theories of 2d math so we made a new branch that included 3d math...then came 4d so we made a branch that included 4d and blah blah blah till we got 11d
|
Smitington
Unidentified Flying Object


Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 1,408
Loc: Mushroom Kingdom
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
|
numbers are fundamental to the universe
--------------------
|
durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:
Vaped said: What came first- people or numbers? I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.
Numbers were invented by humans as a way to understand the universe in a language called mathematics. Although i'm sure it started in a very basic way in counting things and trading goos "I'll give you 3 pigs and 1 horse for that plot of land."
What you are actually saying is that humans created words for numbers...
Three, four, two hundred are just words to describe things that already existed.
That's not to say that number came before humans... I think both came at the same time.
but if you are asking whether or not humans created numbers then I would say they did not. Humans created words.
|
Smitington
Unidentified Flying Object


Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 1,408
Loc: Mushroom Kingdom
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz] 2
#14011236 - 02/23/11 12:31 AM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Before humans, did the number of electrons within an atom matter? Damn right it did, the number of electrons amongst other numbers determine an atoms type and behavior. Numbers have always had meaning in the universe whether man is here to call them numbers or not.
What came first, humans, or stars? Well, aren't stars just a concept we created to explain places where a lot of matter has come together to form a giant radiation pumping thing? Seriously, you can do this with anything, numbers are just more complicated so it's easier for people to not see them like this. Don't be so anthropocentric.
--------------------
|
R2-D2
horseradish



Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 945
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
#14011355 - 02/23/11 12:51 AM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
This question is undeniably impossible to answer at the given time, no? It seems like one of the more fundamental questions of reality to me
--------------------
|
BothHands
Dog Coffee



Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 13,177
Loc:
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped]
#14011428 - 02/23/11 01:01 AM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
The egg
|
mushiepussy

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: BothHands]
#14011662 - 02/23/11 01:48 AM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
The human egg actually, but numbers were written on the outside of the egg so numbers came before humans, but their eggs came before numbers.
|
durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy]
#14011695 - 02/23/11 01:59 AM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
The bible says that numbers came before humans...
Buddhism says that number and man came at the same time... (i think) Before man there was Oneness. Then the One split in the ultimate sacrifice to create the universe including man.
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
#14011756 - 02/23/11 02:25 AM (13 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Numbers are just ideas humans have. The number of objects in the universe before humans were just that... different objects.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: R2-D2]
#14012301 - 02/23/11 08:22 AM (13 years, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
R2-D2 said: This question is undeniably impossible to answer at the given time, no? It seems like one of the more fundamental questions of reality to me 
Not to me. Numbers are a construct of the human mind - its as simple as that. You cannot go out into the universe and find a number, they do not exist outside of our conceptualizations.
Quote:
What came first, humans, or stars? Well, aren't stars just a concept we created to explain places where a lot of matter has come together to form a giant radiation pumping thing?
Stars. Such places where a lot of matter has come together existed long before humans. But the math that can be used to (partially) explain such a star was invented by us over the course of the past million years or so.
|
|