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OfflineVaped


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What came first- people or numbers?
    #14010074 - 02/22/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What came first- people or numbers? I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped] * 1
    #14010077 - 02/22/11 09:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

People.

Here is an exchange I had with Zouden: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9842302#9842302

I didn't re-read it, so I may have posted some crap.  :tongue:


Edited by DieCommie (02/22/11 09:24 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #14010085 - 02/22/11 09:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
People.




--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineVaped


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14010088 - 02/22/11 09:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

And what leaves you to believe people came first? I'm not disagreeing with you, just would like to know your reasons.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped]
    #14010096 - 02/22/11 09:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry, I was looking for a link.  I posted it above.


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OfflineVaped


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14010157 - 02/22/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Sorry, I was looking for a link.  I posted it above.




We did in fact create mathematics, it's nothing but a figment of our imagination. But isn't our imagination a "figment" of the universe? We are merely products of our environment. The very principles that "created" our imagination have existed long before humans came along.

According to quantum mechanics everything that could have happened, already has happened.

*Keep in mind, I'm merely playing devils advocate here. I've been wrestling with this debate for quite a while, and I can't really seem to get a decent understanding of it. Feel free to let me know if anything I'm assuming is incorrect.*


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped] * 2
    #14010317 - 02/22/11 09:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

People came first and they invented math to model the physical world (and sometimes for academic purposes, to expressly NOT model the physical world).

One argument against this is that 10 + 5 = 15, always has and always will.

But when you study math, one thing you'll quickly discover is modular arithmetic in Group Theory. The "Clock Group" is one example.

In math geek speak: the Set of positive integers modulus 12 endowed with the operator Addition and obeying the Group axioms of Closure, Associativity, Identity, and Inverses.

This works like a 12 hour clock.

What is 10 o'clock + 5? It's not 15 o'clock but rather 3 o'clock. So in this Group, 10 + 5 = 3.

Funny how that works eh?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14010342 - 02/22/11 09:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: andrewss]
    #14010358 - 02/22/11 10:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped]
    #14010360 - 02/22/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Vaped said:
What came first- people or numbers? I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.



Numbers were invented by humans as a way to understand the universe in a language called mathematics.  Although i'm sure it started in a very basic way in counting things and trading goos "I'll give you 3 pigs and 1 horse for that plot of land."


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Offlinedamnyoumongorians
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped]
    #14010407 - 02/22/11 10:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

we just keep inventing different branches of math to explain the world. we invented 3d shapes because they are an exception to 2d math and they didnt fit into the theories of 2d math so we made a new branch that included 3d math...then came 4d so we made a branch that included 4d and blah blah blah till we got 11d


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OfflineSmitington
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: damnyoumongorians]
    #14010541 - 02/22/11 10:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

numbers are fundamental to the universe


--------------------


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Cognitive_Shift] * 1
    #14011103 - 02/23/11 12:08 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

Vaped said:
What came first- people or numbers? I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.



Numbers were invented by humans as a way to understand the universe in a language called mathematics.  Although i'm sure it started in a very basic way in counting things and trading goos "I'll give you 3 pigs and 1 horse for that plot of land."




What you are actually saying is that humans created words for numbers...

Three, four, two hundred are just words to describe things that already existed.

That's not to say that number came before humans... I think both came at the same time.

but if you are asking whether or not humans created numbers then I would say they did not. Humans created words.


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OfflineSmitington
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz] * 2
    #14011236 - 02/23/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Before humans, did the number of electrons within an atom matter?  Damn right it did, the number of electrons amongst other numbers determine an atoms type and behavior.  Numbers have always had meaning in the universe whether man is here to call them numbers or not.

What came first, humans, or stars?  Well, aren't stars just a concept we created to explain places where a lot of matter has come together to form a giant radiation pumping thing?  Seriously, you can do this with anything, numbers are just more complicated so it's easier for people to not see them like this.  Don't be so anthropocentric.


--------------------


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OfflineR2-D2
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14011355 - 02/23/11 12:51 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

This question is undeniably impossible to answer at the given time, no? It seems like one of the more fundamental questions of reality to me :confused:


--------------------


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OfflineBothHands
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Vaped]
    #14011428 - 02/23/11 01:01 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The egg


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: BothHands]
    #14011662 - 02/23/11 01:48 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The human egg actually, but numbers were
written on the outside of the egg so
numbers came before humans, but their
eggs came before numbers.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14011695 - 02/23/11 01:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The bible says that numbers came before humans...

Buddhism says that number and man came at the same time... (i think)
Before man there was Oneness. Then the One split in the ultimate sacrifice to create the universe including man.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14011756 - 02/23/11 02:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Numbers are just ideas humans have.  The number of objects in the universe before humans were just that... different objects.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: R2-D2]
    #14012301 - 02/23/11 08:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

R2-D2 said:
This question is undeniably impossible to answer at the given time, no? It seems like one of the more fundamental questions of reality to me :confused:




Not to me.  Numbers are a construct of the human mind - its as simple as that.  You cannot go out into the universe and find a number, they do not exist outside of our conceptualizations. 



Quote:

What came first, humans, or stars?  Well, aren't stars just a concept we created to explain places where a lot of matter has come together to form a giant radiation pumping thing?




Stars.  Such places where a lot of matter has come together existed long before humans.  But the math that can be used to (partially) explain such a star was invented by us over the course of the past million years or so.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14012374 - 02/23/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Stars.  Such places where a lot of matter has come together existed long before humans.  But the math that can be used to (partially) explain such a star was invented by us over the course of the past million years or so.




How do you invent something that it already there?

This maths you talk about is only symbols used to describe something which already exists.

Your argument is similar to saying that humans invented gold...

Sure we invented the word "gold" and the value of gold, and the ways to use gold. but the substance was in the earth's crust long before we discovered it.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14012398 - 02/23/11 08:55 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This maths you talk about is only symbols used to describe something which already exists.




What is that something?  More importantly, if it already existed - where can I find it?

Math is like a map.  A map can model some geography, and that geography it models is not invented by man.  The map however is.  (Recall the famous expression, "The map is not the territory".)  Similarly, math is an invention used to model other phenomenon.  That phenomenon has always existed and is not invented by man.  But the math used to model it is invented by man.

Also note that all maps do not describe geography.  Some of them are a little wrong, and some are flat out wrong/fiction.  The same is true for math, there is math that does model reality and there is math that doesn't model reality.  We are free to invent whatever math we like, but if we are scientists or engineers then we are bound by having our math model reality (mathematicians have no such restriction).


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14012429 - 02/23/11 09:04 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

NUMBERS (not math), are just ways to QUANTIZE stuff.  Quantism is fundemantal to the universe.  Quantities are extremely important in everything, numbers are just symbols and words we have created to describe quantities.


--------------------


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14012444 - 02/23/11 09:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quantism huh?  I dont think making up words is a good way to prove a point.  :lol:


A number doesnt have any meaning outside of a mathematic paradigm, a paradigm which is necessarily built on axioms invented by humans with structure invented by humans.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14012713 - 02/23/11 10:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

  Numbers are a construct of the human mind - its as simple as that.

Of course although the effects of numbers were always present.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14012891 - 02/23/11 10:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I dont think there are effects of numbers.  If there were, then numbers would have to exist before humans.  Numbers are the effect, the effect of consciousness describing and predicting phenomenon.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14012902 - 02/23/11 10:52 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

OK let me rephrase.  There are effects and we describe them with numbers.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14013416 - 02/23/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

numbers are a property of natures fundamental workings, they are
the representation of a constant scalar quantity of the universe.
The symbols and values come from us, but "mathematics" is a
constant.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14013425 - 02/23/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

numbers are a property of natures fundamental workings




Have any evidence to support this claim?

I dont believe you do.  I have studied nature's fundamental workings to some extent and have never found numbers to be fundamental to the workings.  Fundamental to the descriptions and predictions of the workings - yes, but not fundamental to the workings themselves.


Edited by DieCommie (02/23/11 01:08 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy] * 1
    #14013587 - 02/23/11 01:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

numbers are a property of natures fundamental workings

Not that I can see.

Take gravity. The planets were orbiting the sun long before we got here. But do the planets or the sun or the gravity between them have numbers as part of their constructions? Not that I can see.

There is a relationship between those entities that has nothing to do with numbers. The curvature of space is not a number or an equation. It's the curvature of space, period. It exists absent any mathematical description of its nature.

Enter humans who invented a way to describe that relationship, that curvature, very precisely using numbers, but the numbers themselves are not necessary (and are not present) for the relationship to exist.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineR2-D2
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14013640 - 02/23/11 01:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

R2-D2 said:
This question is undeniably impossible to answer at the given time, no? It seems like one of the more fundamental questions of reality to me :confused:




Not to me.  Numbers are a construct of the human mind - its as simple as that.  You cannot go out into the universe and find a number, they do not exist outside of our conceptualizations. 



Quote:

What came first, humans, or stars?  Well, aren't stars just a concept we created to explain places where a lot of matter has come together to form a giant radiation pumping thing?




Stars.  Such places where a lot of matter has come together existed long before humans.  But the math that can be used to (partially) explain such a star was invented by us over the course of the past million years or so.



I actually just realized I was wrong. Nothing came first!


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14013644 - 02/23/11 01:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

That's what I was trying to get at in my non clear not Diploid sort of way.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeyeplanted
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014346 - 02/23/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

People came first, then numbers.

Unless there was another being before us that used numbers which is highly likely. Or highly unlikely, depending on how you look at the numbers.  :crazy2:

It's all just pattern recognition.


--------------------
Actual events may not have happened.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: eyeplanted]
    #14014396 - 02/23/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Ok just consider this question.

If people came first then how did they create numbers and why did they do it?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014407 - 02/23/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Most likely created them with objects such as fingers or sticks and used them to convey numbers of enemy or game and such.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014444 - 02/23/11 03:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

In doing so were they then not just describing existing phenomena?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014449 - 02/23/11 03:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yes but the numbers were not the phenomena.

Two apples are not the same as two enemies.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014476 - 02/23/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

So that would mean there were multiple classes of phenomena and multiple subsets, and multiple individuals within subsets, all before humans existed?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014527 - 02/23/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Those are human concepts.

What we had was lots of things that we wanted to classify for personal gain.:laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014568 - 02/23/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I just see number as a way of describing all of those things. Creating numbers wouldn't have changed anything about those objects that were already there.

How is speaking a number any more correct than not speaking it?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014590 - 02/23/11 03:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

A number does not describe an apple or an enemy.

What has "correct" got to do with it?  "Useful" is the important term. Numbers are useful or we wouldn't have needed that concept.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014619 - 02/23/11 03:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You raise a perfect point! It does not describe AN apple or AN enemy. But it does describe more than one of those things...

It's funny how the language we use actually speaks for us... because I'm sure you did not actually realise what you were saying.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14014784 - 02/23/11 04:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It does not describe AN apple or AN enemy. But it does describe more than one of those things..

no it does not. If I say "there were two" how do you know it was apples or enemies?

I usually realize what I'm saying.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (02/23/11 04:28 PM)


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014804 - 02/23/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Numbers are within nature, Fibonacci sequences are everywhere, and existed before we did.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter]
    #14014816 - 02/23/11 04:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Show me a number out in nature. I've spent years in the backcountry and never encountered a number.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14014853 - 02/23/11 04:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/fibslide/jbfibslide.htm

read my friend, obviously the symbol we use for the number one or 2 is of human construct but the concept of a singularity vs. duality or multiples existed before us. this does not mean math though, what does constitute math is an interaction of the amounts of things that we have learned to measure and record and observe and learn from the surroundings around us. math is an observation that we created a language for.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter] * 1
    #14014886 - 02/23/11 04:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Numbers are within nature, Fibonacci sequences are everywhere, and existed before we did.

Did the Meter exist before humans?

I'm pretty sure there were plants 1 Meter tall, and rocks of 1 Meter diameter.

But the Meter didn't exist until we came along and said "that plant is 1 Meter tall".

Same goes for math and for the same reasons.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14014905 - 02/23/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

He jumped in late I'm guessing and didn't read all the posts cause I think we've covered this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14014915 - 02/23/11 04:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

that is simply distance though, i dont think your understanding the idea that we learned that every single pinecone on this earth uses the same pattern for its little nubs, and that that pattern we learned to express into numbers, it also shows up in pineapples, sunflowers and on and on. it is not a tool to measure with it is an equation to figure out and predict what has happened and what will happen, it is the math that the earth uses to create. we just figured it out along the way. a meter is arbitrary it is a human made piece of measurement, not an observation of surroundings. not the same


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter] * 1
    #14014936 - 02/23/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i dont think your understanding the idea that we learned that every single pinecone on this earth uses the same pattern for its little nubs, and that that pattern we learned to express into numbers

I'm not denying that there is a pattern. I'm denying that the pattern needs numbers to exist.

Show me the number in a pine cone. Bet you can't.

Show me the number in an equation that models the pine cone. Bet you'll find it that time.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14015661 - 02/23/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It seems like we have differing definition of what "numbers" are...

Half of us are saying that numbers are part of language and the other half are saying that numbers are actually independent from language.

To the people who believe numbers came after humans then please explain time...


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015783 - 02/23/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Time is also a human construct and is based on the same idea as two apples or two enemies.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015823 - 02/23/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
To the people who believe numbers came after humans then please explain time...




You should explain the relevance first.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015836 - 02/23/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea.

Time exists with or without us.

Hours and minutes exist because we defined them to quantize time. Time doesn't need hours or minutes to exist.

You still haven't shown me where the pine cone's numbers are that you insist it possess.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14015869 - 02/23/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

ok let's get this very clear.

"hours", "minutes", "meters", "two", "three" are all WORDS which are part of language.

If we follow your reasoning then we would say that humans created everything. That snow didn't exist before we created the word "snow".

Why are you separating number from language? I don't understand


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015892 - 02/23/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

If we follow your reasoning then we would say that humans created everything. That snow didn't exist before we created the word "snow".

You're kidding right? You haven't understood any of what we've been saying cause we certainly haven't been saying that.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015896 - 02/23/11 07:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"hours", "minutes", "meters", "two", "three" are all WORDS which are part of language.

Yes, but 1 meter is a numeric quantity that a bush 1 meter tall does not depend on for existing.

If we follow your reasoning then we would say that humans created everything. That snow didn't exist before we created the word "snow".

Snow is a thing. Numbers are descriptors of things that those things do need to exist.

1 kilogram of snow can exist with or without the definition of 1 or the definition of kilogram which were invented by humans long after snow already existed without their definition.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14015908 - 02/23/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

1 kilogram of snow can exist with or without the definition of 1 or the definition of kilogram which were invented by humans long after snow already existed without their definition.




Yes exactly. This is what I have been saying...

But how can you say that it isn't dependent on number for existing? Snow requires a certain number of water molecules in order for it to exist.

Just because there weren't words to describe how many molecules existed doesn't mean that the number of them wasn't crucial!


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14015940 - 02/23/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Snow requires a certain number of water molecules in order for it to exist.

I agree that snow requires water molecules, and I can look and see them for myself.

Now show me where in snow the numbers are. I can't see any so help me out. Point to them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14016251 - 02/23/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)



But seriously I don't think I can help you cos you're missing my point...

We are just going to repeat ourselves ad infinitum


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14016417 - 02/23/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Nobodies missing your point.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14016698 - 02/23/11 09:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I can see how maybe we didn't invent numbers.

I think of a single unit of water molecule, and it actually isn't a single thing at all. It is 2 hydrogens and 1 oxygen.

Then I think of the number 5 and it actually isn't a single thing at all either. It is 3 plus 2.

So yes, if you look at everything in the sense that it takes a certain specific quantity of another thing to make up another thing then no we did not actually invent numbers. Because I question how water could be formed, without the sense of a certain required quantity of hydrogen and oxygen?


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: eyeplanted]
    #14016952 - 02/23/11 10:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:

A quantity is, but a number names it.  It's still there without the name. We created those names. Answer Diploids question.

I'm not denying that there is a pattern. I'm denying that the pattern needs numbers to exist.

Show me the number in a pine cone. Bet you can't.

Show me the number in an equation that models the pine cone. Bet you'll find it that time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14017068 - 02/23/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

A quantity is, but a number names it.  It's still there without the name. We created those names




Well done Icelander you just repeated what we've been saying for the last 2 days...


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14017095 - 02/23/11 10:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:braindamage:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14017338 - 02/23/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Numbers are our way of measuring constants in dimensions.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14018118 - 02/24/11 02:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Numbers are sophisticated mental concepts that express relationships in reality.  As such they exist only in mind.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: deCypher]
    #14018376 - 02/24/11 05:41 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

so then we all agree that numbers have always existed but since i dont have a prelanguage term for them i will call them numbers now so that you know what i am talking about. the only thing icelander has convinced me of is that humans created language to describe the things we see. but to say that we created the math that creates molecules and patterns in nature is kinda ridiculous, if you made all humans disappear right now suddenly DNA in horses wouldn't fall apart because math ceased to exist.

also you say that patterns exist without numbers, no they exist without words, but without numbers then how can you differentiate a singularity from nothingness, or from multitude? a pattern is a repeating sequence of single things set up in a certain repeatable way. go and do replicate this yourself with a bunch of pencils or apples or rice grains whatever, make an exact replicating pattern, but dont count anything. see how well it turns out.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


Edited by nuentoter (02/24/11 05:46 AM)


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter]
    #14018676 - 02/24/11 08:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Neutoner I don't think you should be talking anymore... it seems to be falling on deaf ears... sadly :frown:

I totally agree with what you are saying but it seems that we are the only ones.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter]
    #14018742 - 02/24/11 08:34 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/14/16 11:37 AM)


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14018770 - 02/24/11 08:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Was that just a really long winded way of saying what we've been saying all along; that maths describes already existing phenomena?


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14018796 - 02/24/11 08:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

that maths describes already existing phenomena?




It can, but it doesn't always.  You can invent whatever math you like, and it may or may not describe existing phenomena.



I'm curious, do you know a significant amount of math?  Its kind of a rude thing to say... but I have found that those have not studied any more than beginning math are more likely to think math always existed and that we discovered it rather than inventing it.  :shrug:  Im curious what kind of background people have.


Edited by DieCommie (02/24/11 08:53 AM)


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter]
    #14018829 - 02/24/11 08:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

so then we all agree that numbers have always existed

no we don't :lol:
That's like saying language has always existed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14019976 - 02/24/11 01:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I'm curious, do you know a significant amount of math?  Its kind of a rude thing to say... but I have found that those have not studied any more than beginning math are more likely to think math always existed and that we discovered it rather than inventing it.  :shrug:  Im curious what kind of background people have.




gtfo. Also, please stop coupling numbers with math.  Numbers are the building blocks of math, but math is not numbers.  Please reread the thread title.

To everybody saying "show me a number in nature", here is my response:

To show you a number by this idea, I would have to show you some arbitrary number, say two.  Two is the idealization of a quantity of two, therefore I can never show you two in nature, just as I can never show you apple in nature.  I can show you an apple, but I cannot show you that which is our idealization of apple, because it does not exist. 
As somebody already has said, there are two fighting definitions here for what a number is.  If you believe that numbers are purely a human construct, then you must also believe that apples are human constructs, otherwise you sound like an idiot.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14019989 - 02/24/11 01:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

An apple is a human construct.  There is no inherent differentiation between an apple and the tree it is attached too.  It takes a human (or other consciousness) to arbitrarily define where the apple begins and where the apple ends.  That is not to say that the apple requires consciousness to exist, rather to be defined as an apple requires consciousness.


Also, stfu with telling me what I can and cant do.  Ill couple numbers with math all I want, numbers have no meaning outside of a mathematical structure.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: DieCommie]
    #14020062 - 02/24/11 01:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup: once again


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14020137 - 02/24/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
An apple is a human construct.  There is no inherent differentiation between an apple and the tree it is attached too.  It takes a human (or other consciousness) to arbitrarily define where the apple begins and where the apple ends.  That is not to say that the apple requires consciousness to exist, rather to be defined as an apple requires consciousness.




Just as two apples do not need consciousness to exist.

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Ill couple numbers with math all I want, numbers have no meaning outside of a mathematical structure.




except for the sake of this topic.


Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup: once again




I assume that was directed at me for putting an elitist in his place.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14020182 - 02/24/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

gee I must have missed that, can you link me to it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14020463 - 02/24/11 02:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I took commie's comment about math experience as a sign of elitism, perhaps it wasn't meant like that, but I feel as though math has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, therefore I still see very little relevance in his statement.  This is a topic of reality vs. how we understand reality, and although he made good points about math, I feel they would have been better suited for a thread titled "What came first - people or math?"


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14020622 - 02/24/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I take the question to mean "what came first the human or the word?"

Of course something existed before humans but it's an unknown. We made up words so we could operate better within the unknown.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14020854 - 02/24/11 04:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yes Icelander agree...

Anyways e have been very limited in our debate so far to the English numbering system; how ignorant of us all!!

Look at the chinese numbering system. I could easily find their numbers in nature...


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14020992 - 02/24/11 04:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Once again, you find their (China's) numbers in nature because they are our numbers in a different language. And the reason they exist in either language is because we find them useful to model nature.

The only reason you guys think numbers are part of nature and not an invention of humans is because you've only studied one version of math. You were taught that version because it is the most useful for day to day life.

There are other versions with different definitions for numbers. Read back to the example from Group Theory I gave where 10 + 5 = 3.

Then show me a snowflake where 10 flakes + 5 flakes gives you 3 flakes. You can't because that particular Group and its axioms doesn't model that reality. Another one, the Peano axioms, do model snowflakes because it was invented for that purpose.

Try to think past what you've been taught as the foundation of everything. It isn't. It's just one kind of system for counting. There are others, just a valid, that won't balance your checkbook.

All of them, inventions of man.


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14021011 - 02/24/11 04:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Ahhhh so you guys are turning his debate into "what came first: math or humans"

Now I understand why we are disagreeing. You've changed the topic...


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: durantz]
    #14021031 - 02/24/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Math, numbers. Same thing. :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineSmitington
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14021126 - 02/24/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

please read everything I've said..


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14021981 - 02/24/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i will stand corrected now actually, man vs. numbers, man cam first because we made words, this is an obvious statement because words come from human mouths. we made language therefore we made words. I guess i stupidly assumed that we all understood that, sorry. I'll wait for the man Vs. math thread i guess.


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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: nuentoter]
    #14021993 - 02/24/11 07:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

how about the man vs the apple thread?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14022080 - 02/24/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think the world is ready for that thread unfortunately.

Also, I was thinking about how to formulate a discussion about math that won't lead to the exact same conclusion.  Perhaps, "To what degree does math exist in nature?"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14022085 - 02/24/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It can only come to the same conclusion imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Icelander]
    #14022135 - 02/24/11 07:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps, "To what degree does mathematics apply to nature?"


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Smitington]
    #14022238 - 02/24/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"To what degree does mathematics apply to nature?"

Now you're getting it. :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14022303 - 02/24/11 08:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

mathematics is attempting to describe nature

why is this a thread? clearly man came before any concept as concepts are created by man


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14022349 - 02/24/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How about quantities or amounts? Three geese quacking has always been different from two geese quacking... right? One goose is the loneliest number it will ever be?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Rahz]
    #14022392 - 02/24/11 08:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I could call three two and two three and it owuldn't matter, any of that stuff is just labeling whats already there


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: learningtofly]
    #14022402 - 02/24/11 08:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

And mathematicians often do exactly that. They create a different set of numbers and rules that won't balance your checkbook or do anything else practical but are just as valid as the ones we all learned in first grade.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14022488 - 02/24/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Okay so numbers as concepts clearly need humans, or at least minds... but whether we say a pair of ducks is two or three, it is still a duck and a duck, as opposed to a duck or a duck and a duck and a duck.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: Diploid]
    #14022507 - 02/24/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I believe math is probably used by animals as
well as humans, to a certain extent. Dna could
be said to control many mathematical functions,
and atomic structure has many numerical constants.
So i would say numbers have always existed, in various
different expressions.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14022656 - 02/24/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I believe math is probably used by animals as
well as humans, to a certain extent.


Algebra or Trigonometry?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What came first- people or numbers? [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14022953 - 02/24/11 10:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Dna could be said to control many mathematical functions,
and atomic structure has many numerical constants.
So i would say numbers have always existed, in various
different expressions.


Once again, those things do not rely on math to exist or function. They posses certain relationships that exist without math just like the Earth exists without maps.

Then humans came along and invented axiomatic systems to model atoms and DNA. Those axiomatic systems are maps of the relationships that make atoms and DNA work. They are not the relationships and they are not necessary for atoms and DNA to work.

In the same way, the Earth doesn't need maps to exist. Maps just model the Earth. Math models atoms and DNA's functioning.

If you disagree, you are essentially saying that the Earth has maps as part of its makeup. But it doesn't. The Earth has geographical features and doesn't need maps for that to be true. Maps just model those geographical features in a way that humans find useful.

Just like math models atoms and DNA.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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