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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: leakeg]
#14009756 - 02/22/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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well our consciousness is determined, just as everything else in this universe, by fundamental particles. If the movement of these particles follow physical rules/laws then logically the outcomes of the movements of these particles are determined by the same laws.
That's the billiard ball argument again.
Physics has shown us that the universe is probabilistic. The EXACT same starting conditions allowed to run forward can and will produce different results.
EXACT SAME -> different result.
You are arguing that the particles of the universe are deterministic and once set in motion, their future can be, in principle, exactly predicted (no free will because the evolution of the particles is completely determined by the past).
But that is not true and it is well established experimentally.
So again, given that the billiard table argument is out, what else do you have?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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leakeg
Dr. Hoffman.
Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 15
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: Diploid]
#14009843 - 02/22/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Regards, Minitruth.
Edited by leakeg (05/02/12 01:09 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: leakeg]
#14009985 - 02/22/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well, a computer generates pseudo-random numbers unless it's connected to a physical source of indeterminacy, but that technicality aside, I agree that a probabilistic universe does not necessarily mean free will.
But you're still arguing that the universe, though probabilistic, is pre-determined. I read your argument as "the universe's future state is COMPLETELY determined by its past state" and I don't see how a probabilistic universe does that.
Like I said, two EXACT repetitions of quantum events can be experimentally constructed, and each will evolve differently, so any argument that the state of the universe at a given instant pre-determines its future evolution is false.
And that's what I read you're arguing.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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leakeg
Dr. Hoffman.
Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 15
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: leakeg]
#14010032 - 02/22/11 09:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Regards, Minitruth.
Edited by leakeg (05/02/12 01:09 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: leakeg]
#14010134 - 02/22/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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OK so I don't follow then.
Given 1: The universe's future IS NOT pre-determined. GIven 2: My future IS pre-determined because I have no free will.
Contradiction: I am part of the universe and so my future IS and IS NOT pre-determined.
Non sequitur.
What am I missing?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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leakeg
Dr. Hoffman.
Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 15
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: Diploid]
#14010327 - 02/22/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Regards, Minitruth.
Edited by leakeg (05/02/12 01:10 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: leakeg]
#14010352 - 02/22/11 10:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sure, but you're making that assertion arbitrarily. It MIGHT be true, but you're saying it is because you say it is, not because there a rationale or evidence behind the argument.
Meanwhile, unlike a computer, you and I have the subjective experience of free will. That doesn't prove it exists, but it's a lot more than "because I say so".
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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leakeg
Dr. Hoffman.
Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 15
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: leakeg]
#14010393 - 02/22/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Regards, Minitruth.
Edited by leakeg (05/02/12 01:10 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: leakeg]
#14010468 - 02/22/11 10:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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At least there is a fair bit of evidence pointing in that direction with our current understanding of the universe.
What evidence?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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leakeg
Dr. Hoffman.
Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 15
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: Diploid]
#14010506 - 02/22/11 10:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Our understanding of the interactions between molecules, atoms, cations, electrons, etc.
Again this is assuming no "spiritual" world or whatever.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: leakeg]
#14010577 - 02/22/11 10:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Those interactions are probabilistic. I don't see how that supports non-free will.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: Diploid]
#14010632 - 02/22/11 10:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well probabilism does not seem compatible with free will at all because you would then have to agree that everything we do just comes down to chance.
How does probabilism support free will? I fail to see the connection
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: durantz]
#14010683 - 02/22/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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How does probabilism support free will? I fail to see the connection
It doesn't. It just denies non-free will based on determinism.
Still, and this is more intuition and metaphysics than a rational argument I suppose, it seems to me, subjectively, that I have free will.
It seems like those probabilistic events are disciplined in certain directions by my volition. While I concede that this is not a rational argument, it is SOMETHING.
Whereas the counter-argument is it doesn't exist "because".
I can't deny the fact that, subjective free will does exist, and it seems to suggest that actual free will exists because I feel like it does.
If consciousness didn't exist, I'd agree with you (if that makes any sense.)
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: Diploid]
#14010717 - 02/22/11 11:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Now for me, when I think about it, and look at how one action precedes another I think I don't have free will. It may be that it "seems" like we have free will in the same way that it seems like the world is flat. I've been told I have free will all my life. I've been programmed to believe that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: Diploid]
#14010740 - 02/22/11 11:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Diploid that is the most genuine and honest thing anyone has said in this thread so far.
Thankyou for being humble.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: durantz]
#14011399 - 02/23/11 12:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Does it matter if free will exists or not? I mean honestly, what is that going to change?
Either free will doesn't exist, and everything will happen because it's determined to happen
or!
It DOES exist, and everything will happen that we want to happen, yet to an observer, there is absolutely no difference; you will never know the difference between what actions are determined and what are willed, because even if you "will" something it could still be determined that you will it.
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leakeg
Dr. Hoffman.
Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 15
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Regards, Minitruth.
Edited by leakeg (05/02/12 01:11 AM)
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice



Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: durantz]
#14014828 - 02/23/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:
Hippie chick you advocate the torture and sexual abuse of innocent children and the abuse of animals... you advocate all physical suffering caused by human beings... this is a very harsh philosophy you have. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that it is very harsh and bleak. I choose to live by a different system.
I did not advocate anything about the torture and sexual abuse of children and animals. You made that up. I simply stated that I think humans are sophisticated animals who all do what they believe is right for them.
You never answered my question. Why is it morally right for the king to declare that all the land, the livestock and the crops in the country belong to him and the royal court, but it is immoral for Robin Hood to take some possessions from the "royal" people? Do you think all the land and the products from the land belonged to the king because he declared it to be his? I NOW DECLARE THE UNITED STATES AND ALL THE POSSESSIONS HEREIN BELONG TO ME! JUST BECAUSE I SAID SO! Do you see how silly that sounds? Obviously, the king was able to declare that because he had the "might" in the form of an army to back him up. So if he had the "might" to say owned the whole country, then Robin Hood or anyone else with "might" or skill or intelligence can take back what they want.
I have been taken advantage of in my life to some degree, but I have had very little stolen from me. I think the reason is because I don't flash money and possessions around and brag about them. I live a simple, frugal life, and do what I can to help people.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I did not advocate anything about the torture and sexual abuse of children and animals.
I saw that outrageous quote too. I was going to respond but I couldn't stop laughing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
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Re: Robin Hood: Good or Bad? [Re: Icelander]
#14015705 - 02/23/11 06:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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@ hippiechick
forgive me but I'm not going to go back and read through all your posts so I can't quote you word of mouth.
But if I remember correctly you said that we function no differently than animals and it is the responsibility of the individual to look after themselves and take the right precautions to ensure that noone else can take advantage of them.
A child can't do these things... so according to you it would be fine for someone to abuse a child...
And I told you that stealing in any form is wrong!! I've said it at least twice in this post. But just cos the king is stealing then why does it make it right for someone to steal off the king?
I think you need to read;
1. PLato's republic 2. Kantian Ethics 3. Catechisms of the catholic church 4. Almost ANY moral/ethics theory
Don't let me try and open your mind, there are already countless books out there about this topic. Have you ever read any of them?
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