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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13993072 - 02/19/11 11:12 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Yes, there are no selfless actions because we always have a selfish drive.  But there can be altruistic actions going by the secondary definition, which shows us that not only animals but humans can be altruistic.  This has been my point all along... I guess the confusion rested (as it always does) in which definition you're using of altruistic.

Re: the soldier; just like the self-immolating Buddhist, he is performing an altruistic action (going by the 2nd definition).  He is benefiting his country (other people) to the detriment of himself (his life).  He also probably possesses a selfish drive in the form of wanting posthumous glory or some such thing; therefore he is not committing a selfless act.

We all good now?  :lol:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993083 - 02/19/11 11:14 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Also, it's not like I'm using a particularly obscure or obsolete definition of "altruism"; just search around on Wiki @ the Altruism in Animals page and you'll see it used in that sense all over.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993087 - 02/19/11 11:14 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

I think anyone who comes to the realization that they are but a tool of humanity, and uses this knowledge to the best of their ability, to benefit humanity should be considered selfless.

Benefitting yourself is besides the point. Benefits can be a useful motivation, and aid in your Long Term Goal. Afterall you must stay alive to achieve the goal. Unless of course the goal is death :P

Really though, ones motivation is only for them to decide. Many people are better motivated to accomplish long term goals by accomplishing short term ones in the process.

How can you ever truly know another persons motivation?

Edited by teknix (02/19/11 11:20 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993091 - 02/19/11 11:15 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

:rofl: I'll let Ice deal with ya 'cause I'm feeling tired but there is no such thing as a completely selfless act.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993104 - 02/19/11 11:18 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

I guess since we were talking about totally different things.:lol:

Altruism is totally lame imo.  (by your definition) Any yahoo can claim they are doing it for others. The christian trying to save you from hell by making laws telling you what to do for example. How sweet.  Have fun with Altruism.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993108 - 02/19/11 11:19 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
I think anyone who comes to the realization that they are but a tool of humanity, and uses this knowledge to the best of their ability, to benefit humanity should be considered selfless.





No that's altruism. :rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13993117 - 02/19/11 11:20 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Altruism is totally lame imo.  (by your definition) Any yahoo can claim they are doing it for others.




Well, their claim will only be correct if their actions are beneficial to others and are detrimental to themselves.  :shrug:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993128 - 02/19/11 11:22 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

who decides all that?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993135 - 02/19/11 11:23 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Altruism is totally lame imo.  (by your definition) Any yahoo can claim they are doing it for others.




Well, their claim will only be correct if their actions are beneficial to others and are detrimental to themselves.  :shrug:




I think you mean Proven correct.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13993144 - 02/19/11 11:25 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
who decides all that?




Depends of course.  You'll run into problems like you mention when you get the case of Christians who think they're benefiting you by proselytizing the Word of Christ.  :lol:

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Well, their claim will only be correct if their actions are beneficial to others and are detrimental to themselves.  :shrug:




I think you mean Proven correct.




It's valid English to say that a claim is correct, no?  Don't necessarily have to include "proven."


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993155 - 02/19/11 11:26 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Isn't the determination of a selfless act directly correlated to thier motivation for that act?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993159 - 02/19/11 11:27 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

There is no such thing as a selfless act!


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993163 - 02/19/11 11:27 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
who decides all that?




Depends of course.  You'll run into problems like you mention when you get the case of Christians who think they're benefiting you by proselytizing the Word of Christ.  :lol:

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Well, their claim will only be correct if their actions are beneficial to others and are detrimental to themselves.  :shrug:




I think you mean Proven correct.




It's valid English to say that a claim is correct, no?  Don't necessarily have to include "proven."




Well, the claim could have been correct even before it was proven, you just didn't know it.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993168 - 02/19/11 11:28 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Sure...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993170 - 02/19/11 11:28 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

On this we agree. :lol:

But I'm off to dreamland now  I will dream of naked women walking out in public.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13993171 - 02/19/11 11:29 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
On this we agree. :lol:

But I'm off to dreamland now  I will dream of naked women walking out in public.




:highfive: sweet dreams.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibleteknix
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Posts: 11,953
Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993185 - 02/19/11 11:32 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Anyways, I'm not here to debate. I just wanted to share how I see it in hopes that you would in turn share your own rationale, that I might understand how you arrived to this conclusion.

I can't see it.

Paint me a vivid picture :smile:

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #13993201 - 02/19/11 11:34 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

I usually end up naked out in public. In my dreams.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993206 - 02/19/11 11:35 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

I'm heading to bed pretty soon here so I'll have to pass, but this thread and this article on psychological egoism should give you some compelling reasons to believe it.  :cool:


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary] * 1
    #13993216 - 02/19/11 11:37 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Selfless acts don't exist because the self is all :bongload:


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