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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992337 - 02/19/11 09:12 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

The case of the mother sacrificing for her child is interesting. I would agree that the mother is acting in a sense selfishly, seeing the child as an extension of herself. Imagine what would happen if people started to see the collective benefit of the species and the planet as an extension of their selves? In a very real sense this shift in perspective (consciousness?) would be beneficial to the individual self, if it was to catch on with the masses. Now that is selfishness I can get down with. :cool:

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OfflineSeanfu
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Registered: 11/26/09
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992343 - 02/19/11 09:12 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Valid? What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

The drive to satisfy the self is 100%. 




How loose a definition of acting on self gain.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992350 - 02/19/11 09:13 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Not true,  You can't demonstrate that.  If it were true all mothers or at least a majority of mothers would sacrifice themselves and you can't demonstrate it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992356 - 02/19/11 09:14 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Valid? What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

The drive to satisfy the self is 100%. 




How loose a definition of acting on self gain.




What?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSeanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992359 - 02/19/11 09:14 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Alos this argument seems subjective.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992366 - 02/19/11 09:15 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
The case of the mother sacrificing for her child is interesting. I would agree that the mother is acting in a sense selfishly, seeing the child as an extension of herself. Imagine what would happen if people started to see the collective benefit of the species and the planet as an extension of their selves? In a very real sense this shift in perspective (consciousness?) would be beneficial to the individual self, if it was to catch on with the masses. Now that is selfishness I can get down with. :cool:




I'd call it selfishness on the species level rather than the individual level.

Quote:

Icelander said:
If it were true all mothers or at least a majority of mothers would sacrifice themselves and you can't demonstrate it.




I'm not saying anything about what percentage of mothers act on the drive; all I'm saying is that the drive exists and people can act on it.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992370 - 02/19/11 09:15 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

:lol:  You're really grasping at straws  here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992377 - 02/19/11 09:16 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
The case of the mother sacrificing for her child is interesting. I would agree that the mother is acting in a sense selfishly, seeing the child as an extension of herself. Imagine what would happen if people started to see the collective benefit of the species and the planet as an extension of their selves? In a very real sense this shift in perspective (consciousness?) would be beneficial to the individual self, if it was to catch on with the masses. Now that is selfishness I can get down with. :cool:




I'd call it selfishness on the species level rather than the individual level.

Quote:

Icelander said:
If it were true all mothers or at least a majority of mothers would sacrifice themselves and you can't demonstrate it.




I'm not saying anything about what percentage of mothers act on the drive; all I'm saying is that the drive exists and people can act on it.





Can they?  How would you know that?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992392 - 02/19/11 09:19 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

It's a common sense assumption about their psychological state; how else can we know what motivates any other person?  Your assumption that someone is acting selfishly when they steal money is also exactly that: an assumption.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992402 - 02/19/11 09:20 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Valid? What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

The drive to satisfy the self is 100%. 




How loose a definition of acting on self gain.




What?




To say that self gain is to simply do what you think is right is bullshit imo. People are going to do what they think is right because obviously they came to the conlusion that other actions are not right.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992405 - 02/19/11 09:21 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

It's based in a lot of anecdotal evidence.  To say that a mother consciously is motivated to save the species is based in what evidence?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992433 - 02/19/11 09:25 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Valid? What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

The drive to satisfy the self is 100%. 




How loose a definition of acting on self gain.




What?




To say that self gain is to simply do what you think is right is bullshit imo. People are going to do what they think is right because obviously they came to the conlusion that other actions are not right.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.





What? I never said that people only do what they believe is right. I said that they do what supports their self image and/or desires. 

Again we always act in our own behalf first and foremost just as you are determined to continue believing that you can act selflessly. It's how you need to see the world and yourself. Even though there is no truth to it or any evidence for it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992436 - 02/19/11 09:26 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's based in a lot of anecdotal evidence.  To say that a mother consciously is motivated to save the species is based in what evidence?




That evolutionarily speaking, life seeks to survive and propagate the species.  Selfishness serves the first drive, and sacrificing yourself for your child serves the second.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992457 - 02/19/11 09:30 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Possibly as an unconscious drive but I see no evidence of it. Animals may fight to protect their young but in nature they usually break off the fight when the outcome means their own death.  A mother can have more offspring. The survival drive for the individual wins.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992467 - 02/19/11 09:33 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Animals may fight to protect their young but in nature they usually break off the fight when the outcome means their own death.  A mother can have more offspring. The survival drive for the individual wins.




Even if selfishness usually overcomes the drive to save one's young, this means there are still cases where it does not.  I'm not arguing that selfishness isn't our most common drive (I agree with you that it is), but you can't deny that sometimes we aren't as motivated by it as we are other drives.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992488 - 02/19/11 09:36 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.





What? I never said that people only do what they believe is right. I said that they do what supports their self image and/or desires. 

Again we always act in our own behalf first and foremost just as you are determined to continue believing that you can act selflessly. It's how you need to see the world and yourself. Even though there is no truth to it or any evidence for it.




There is no truth or evidence toward people acting for self gain 100 percent of the time. Prove it wrong. Otherwise it is subjective, just as mine.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992496 - 02/19/11 09:38 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

But I'm saying I don't agree.  I think always the self interest drive takes precedence.  I admit you might have a point but I don't think you do.  The fact that a mother dies defending her young may well be the belief that she can save the child and herself. This his how it seems to work in nature.  I see this often in observing deer. When the danger becomes overwhelming she leaves off defending her young.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992503 - 02/19/11 09:39 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.





What? I never said that people only do what they believe is right. I said that they do what supports their self image and/or desires. 

Again we always act in our own behalf first and foremost just as you are determined to continue believing that you can act selflessly. It's how you need to see the world and yourself. Even though there is no truth to it or any evidence for it.




There is no truth or evidence toward people acting for self gain 100 percent of the time. Prove it wrong. Otherwise it is subjective, just as mine.



:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 25 days
Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992511 - 02/19/11 09:40 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Animals may fight to protect their young but in nature they usually break off the fight when the outcome means their own death.  A mother can have more offspring. The survival drive for the individual wins.




Even if selfishness usually overcomes the drive to save one's young, this means there are still cases where it does not.  I'm not arguing that selfishness isn't our most common drive (I agree with you that it is), but you can't deny that sometimes we aren't as motivated by it as we are other drives.




This is what I've been trying to say the whole time. Everyone should be able to say deep down self gain is almost exclusively the goal in actions. Almost exclusive.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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OfflineSeanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992528 - 02/19/11 09:42 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.





What? I never said that people only do what they believe is right. I said that they do what supports their self image and/or desires. 

Again we always act in our own behalf first and foremost just as you are determined to continue believing that you can act selflessly. It's how you need to see the world and yourself. Even though there is no truth to it or any evidence for it.




There is no truth or evidence toward people acting for self gain 100 percent of the time. Prove it wrong. Otherwise it is subjective, just as mine.



:lol:




Well, prove it. I think otherwise it has to be considered that acting without self gain as the primary motive is ((possible))


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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