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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Illogical Reasoning for War
    #1398572 - 03/21/03 03:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

NPR's All Things Considered: March 13, 2003
PETER FREUNDLICH:

All right, let me see if I understand the logic of this correctly. We are going to ignore the United Nations in order to make clear to Saddam Hussein that the United Nations cannot be ignored. We're going to wage war to preserve the UN's ability to avert war. The paramount principle is that the UN's word must be taken seriously, and if we have to subvert its word to guarantee that it is, then by gum, we will. Peace is too important not to take up arms to efend. Am I getting this right? Further, if the only way to bring democracy to Iraq is to vitiate the democracy of the Security Council, then we are honor-bound to do that too, because democracy, as we define it, is too important to be stopped by a little thing like democracy as they define it. Also, in dealing with a man who brooks no dissension at home, we cannot afford dissension among ourselves. We must speak with one voice against Saddam Hussein's failure to allow opposing voices to be heard. We are sending our gathered might to the Persian Gulf to make the point that might does not make right, as Saddam Hussein seems to think it does. And we are twisting the arms of the opposition until it agrees to let us oust a regime that twists the arms of the opposition. We cannot leave in power a dictator who ignores his own people. And if our people, and people elsewhere in
the world, fail to understand that, then we have no choice but to ignore them.

Listen. Don't misunderstand. I think it is a good thing that the members of the Bush administration seem to have been reading Lewis Carroll. I only wish someone had pointed out that "Alice in Wonderland" and "Through the Looking Glass" are meditations on paradox and puzzle and illogic and on the strangeness of things, not templates for foreign policy. It is amusing for the Mad Hatter to say something like, `We must make war on him because he is a threat to peace,' but not amusing for someone who actually commands an army to say that. As a collector of laughable arguments, I'd be enjoying all this were it not for the fact that I know--we all know--that lives are going to be lost in what amounts to a freak, circular reasoning accident.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (03/21/03 03:05 PM)


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: silversoul7]
    #1398611 - 03/21/03 03:20 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong?
Holly Near


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: rhizo]
    #1398636 - 03/21/03 03:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong?

We don't kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong, we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people gets you killed.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: Phred]
    #1398663 - 03/21/03 03:42 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We don't kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong, we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people gets you killed.



So, by that logic, after we kill people for killing people, we should get killed by someone else, who gets killed by someone else, etc. Brilliant! That's the way they solve things out in the Middle East.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: silversoul7]
    #1398691 - 03/21/03 03:57 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Oh. I misunderstood. Judging from the tongue in cheek tone of the first article, and the alliterative cleverness of the second, I thought there was no need to exercise logic -- just be a bit witty.

Okay, how about:

We kill people who are killing people so they can't kill even more people.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: Phred]
    #1398721 - 03/21/03 04:16 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We kill people who are killing people so they can't kill even more people.



Again, the same logic could apply. Someone else could kill us to stop us from killing more people.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: silversoul7]
    #1398888 - 03/21/03 05:56 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The U.N. isn't a democracy. If it was, one nation would not have veto power over the majority. Good chance we would have had a majority if there was no veto power. If the UN passed a resolution that specifically stated that the US can not invade Iraq, that might be a different story although we still retain rights as a sovereign nation.

The UN must first take itself seriously which it obviously doesn't. When the US signed 1441 we were serious and we were prepared to follow through. Other countries obviously were not serious.



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OfflineMurex
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: silversoul7]
    #1398893 - 03/21/03 06:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The UN is a joke.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: Murex]
    #1398954 - 03/21/03 06:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The UN is a joke.



Then why take its resolutions seriously if it's a joke?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (03/21/03 06:32 PM)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: silversoul7]
    #1399020 - 03/21/03 07:00 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It is amusing for the Mad Hatter to say something like, `We must make war on him because he is a threat to peace,' but not amusing for someone who actually commands an army to say that.




Bah, Ha! HEE! HEE! Heeyyyaaah!!!!

That's fuckin' hillarious!

Of course, the spirit of your post is jest. Of course, you understand that these arguments you may of heard to justify this war are merely lies to get (some, most) of the population to approve...it makes it all so much easier...

Of course you know these people are not illogical. These are our leaders, our elite, our masters. The strong. These are the people who make things happen. Unlike Christ, who preaches the strong are there to protect the vulnerable, the masters of our age profess that the weak are their's to exploit.

Why then? Who benefits. Or more appropriatly... find out who benefits and you'll find the sense of it all.

How bout the rebuilding of Iraq by private US interests, at public expense? How many billions will be made there?

How 'bout eventual control of the world's oil spigot?

Who benefits?



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: silversoul7]
    #1399021 - 03/21/03 07:00 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The UN has proven to be nothing but a debating society. Just like unions and afirmative action, it served its porpose and its time has past. It is still a good forum for international cooperation and debate, but that is about it.

Now that we are in a post cold war era, it is time for the US to reevaluate its international stance, which is exactly what we are doing.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1399044 - 03/21/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Now that we are in a post cold war era, it is time for the US to reevaluate its international stance, which is exactly what we are doing.




No more mister nice guy?

If life wasn't so short anyway, I may actually of taken offence to that.

Oh, yeah, all you Union haters out there...I hope you get your wish and get to work under a market regime were you get no collective bargaining rights. Maybe then you'll understand the concept...


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1399060 - 03/21/03 07:14 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If we want to take action against Saddam, fine, but enough with the bullshit double-speak about the U.N.! Either what they say is important or it isn't.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: silversoul7]
    #1399085 - 03/21/03 07:24 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Do enough people pay enough attention to things to be logical?

I would say no.

So, illogical stuff is convincing to the masses.

That's why. No?


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: silversoul7]
    #1399090 - 03/21/03 07:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well that is up to the UN. I think the current structure of the UN doesn't work anymore. It should be set up with two houses. One with equal representation for every county and one with representation based on population. Maybe even a third based on economic importance. No single nation should have veto power.


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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1399099 - 03/21/03 07:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Unions also need restructuring. In themselves they are not bad.


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1401486 - 03/22/03 08:49 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The U.N. isn't a democracy. If it was, one nation would not have veto power over the majority. Good chance we would have had a majority if there was no veto power.




The superpowers want it this way. I'm sure that USA, China & Russia are the only ones who would never give up to the veto power. In past it was often used by USA to block the Israel resolutions that had a complete support of the rest of the security council members.
And please don't beleive the propaganda that the new resolution would have been accepted if the France wouldn't declare to use veto. The USA failed to get even the simple majority. They couldn't even buy the votes of the 3rd world countries.



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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: zeronio]
    #1401512 - 03/22/03 09:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You don't know that that is propaganda. It is possible we could have got it.How does it seem so inconceivable that those little countries would not want to stick there necks out knowing that a veto would be coming anyway. Why is everything propaganda to you people? Besides the UN and NATO are remnants of the cold war and WWII. In the absence of a common enemy (USSR) the role of these institutions has changed.

You have to understand that as the sole remaining super power the US has more exposure, more at stake. I am not suprised at the fear that the rest of the world feels tward the US. It is natural.


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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1401696 - 03/22/03 11:33 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I know that it is propaganda, because I have to privilege to look at this from a bigger distance. USA often included my country (and other irrelevant small and obscure countries) in the list of allies. But I can assure you - nobody knows anything about that here. This is just one of the many lies that make you beleive that you have many supporters. Even the countries that would vote "correctly" would do that against the will of their people. For example in Bulgaria 90% of people oppose the war against Iraq.


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Re: Illogical Reasoning for War [Re: zeronio]
    #1401721 - 03/23/03 12:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The general population is usually not privy to the info that governments use to make decisions. And often papular public opinion has been proven wrong. Democracy does not mean that the gov. does or should use polls to make policy decisions. You elect officials to make these decisions using info that the public does not see. Do you think your gov would tell you if they supported the US? Maybe, maybe not.

It is funny that no matter what party is in office the media is "owned" by them. One minute the media is digging to deep and getting into affairs that are not the business of the public, and the next they are glazing over stuff and not digging enough or telling the truth. Which is it?

The media makes money through ratings, and they way to get ratings is to get the scoop that the others didn't. What do you think would get better ratings, the same shit all the other networks are reporting or proof of a US propaganda campaign and US lies The press reports plenty of stuff that is not something the US government would want out. So why now that it is convenient for you is everything propaganda?

I reiterate: you don't know that it is propaganda.


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