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Offlinefloatingupstream

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A problem with Compassion
    #13984567 - 02/18/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Seeing as I have more than a basic understanding of Buddhist philosophy and that I meditate semi-regularly, I have a great sense of compassion for fellow humans.

It's pretty hard for me to explain in a sensible manner, but I feel this connection to others, almost everyone I encounter. I want them to suffer less.

There's a lot of confusing emotions associated with the feelings I get around people. I know it's because my thinking is radically different from most. Does anyone have an idea of what I'm talking about? Any advice on how to better understand what exactly it is I'm feeling?


Edited by floatingupstream (02/18/11 01:03 PM)


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OfflineTony
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: floatingupstream]
    #13984658 - 02/18/11 01:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I sometimes get a feeling like I wish some person wasn't so stuck up on this or that issue, but I'm pretty sure that's my mind-identification feeling uncomfortable about feeling "other people's" discomfort and the awkwardness of not knowing what to do or say about it. If I were completely ok with suffering, whether internal or external, then there would be no need to change anything and that awkwardness would completely vanish, revealing a natural compassion that simply soaks up suffering and lets it go. So it seems like having compassion toward others is same as having no self, which also entails complete acceptance toward all kinds of suffering, i.e. there is no suffering, only compassion.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: floatingupstream]
    #13984686 - 02/18/11 01:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Its what we are...!!

I don't know...  As if its been distracted or replaced or retrained.

When you become hyper-aware you see allot in people that is experienced but not yet at the 'surface' of reality.  There is an unmentioned energetic conversation that is often not in accord with the verbal exchange.  We are vibrations not values entered into a biological spreadsheet.  Its as if our limiting linear language skips across the coarse levels of experience but we are witness to the divine/pure always once having had a glimpse.  I think we recognize it in each other but its as if its never the topic of conversation verbally.  Meanwhile, the chaos of the energetic conversation commands attention.  And, its as if there is a world happening that is never the subject of the egoic program.

Is it that you see the influence that they are under...??  Or, what is it that you feel this connection for...??  How do you determine that they are suffering...??  And, what is it that you think they are suffering from?

I think you are seeing an ego propped up and awkwardly obscuring the transcendent with an ego that is witness and aware of what might be beyond this structure.


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Offlineretrospect
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #13984929 - 02/18/11 02:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

yeah i think that some people have more natural tendencies towards "empathy"

i tend to have this, and overall i find it much better to find detachment

not in the sense that you dont care, but in the sense that if you cant help, then you are able to detach from that, but when you can help, you are able to do so with a conscious choice


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Offlinefloatingupstream

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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: retrospect]
    #13985766 - 02/18/11 05:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It's like... behind all the drama and surface bullshit there's a person in that body, who feels joy and pain, who is playing out this mysterious existence with the rest of us, and I want them to feel as comfortable as possible while they are here, and not be caught up in the mundane, trivialities of contemporary life.


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: floatingupstream]
    #13986139 - 02/18/11 06:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think it is possible to stop others from suffering. Perhaps lend a listening ear or help someone out who's having a hard time. But further than that, what real suffering can we undo to another? I feel the best compassion is patience and readiness to help when those who suffer realise the source of their problem and want to change them selves with your help.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: floatingupstream]
    #13986243 - 02/18/11 06:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

floatingupstream said:
Seeing as I have more than a basic understanding of Buddhist philosophy and that I meditate semi-regularly, I have a great sense of compassion for fellow humans.

It's pretty hard for me to explain in a sensible manner, but I feel this connection to others, almost everyone I encounter. I want them to suffer less.

There's a lot of confusing emotions associated with the feelings I get around people. I know it's because my thinking is radically different from most. Does anyone have an idea of what I'm talking about? Any advice on how to better understand what exactly it is I'm feeling?





IMO the compassion you think you are feeling for others is really for your own suffering which they mirror.  Humans are basically self serving. I'm not saying this is right or wrong. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefloatingupstream

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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13986337 - 02/18/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

That's probable.

...but what if it's not?


Edited by floatingupstream (02/18/11 07:18 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: floatingupstream]
    #13986352 - 02/18/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'll go with probable.

Otherwise I have to go with the FSM.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCups
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: floatingupstream]
    #13986381 - 02/18/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

floatingupstream said:

...but what if it's not?




What else would it be?  Guess it depends on what kind of buddhist you are...


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


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Offlinefloatingupstream

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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Cups]
    #13986460 - 02/18/11 07:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I guess I was just under the impression that, ultimately, that's what spirituality led to.


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OfflineTony
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: floatingupstream]
    #13988766 - 02/19/11 05:09 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Compassion is more like a mirror than a tour guide. It is pure of intentions. How can spirituality lead to it, if not by making everything pure?

Of course, it is also compassion to try to help others by working for their good, as it is love to care for those who are important to you.

With ultimate compassion and love there is, however, no other and nothing that is more important than something else, there is no you vs them, in the absolute.


Edited by Tony (02/19/11 05:29 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Tony]
    #13988941 - 02/19/11 07:32 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

imo nothing human is pure of intentions.  Sounds nice to believe in something like that though I'm sure.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineTony
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13989134 - 02/19/11 09:11 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Human actions do have intentions in the same way that particles of matter have momentum... I don't think the whole point is to stop human actions and let society come to a complete stop. Unless it's a metaphor for seeing that all effort is vain.


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13991396 - 02/19/11 06:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
imo nothing human is pure of intentions.  Sounds nice to believe in something like that though I'm sure.:satansmoking:




Why not? I think all humans on some conscious or unconscious level want others to not suffer. I think people just have a greedy survival mechanism that makes people want to have more than others.

But beyond it all I think some people at least consciously have pure intentions to better others at times.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13991415 - 02/19/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Your post doesn't make any sense to me. How can I respond?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13991500 - 02/19/11 06:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Your post doesn't make any sense to me. How can I respond?




With a response. It's simple, people usually even subconsciously are using angles to get ahead all the time. Intentions of getting something out of every action. A simple survival mechanism.

But this isn't always in play, I argue that people do not have intentions to gain from 100 percent of actions. Even if the number is 99 percent.

I claim the 100 percent is cynical. There is still a gray. Dont know how better to state what I was attempting.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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Offlinefloatingupstream

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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13991559 - 02/19/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I've read and heard lectures on meditation and how it naturally brings about compassion. This may be a certain type of meditation though. And there's also a practice in Buddhism, I think Theravada, called loving-kindness. I'm not a Buddhist, but their ideas do interest me. Perhaps this is what I am experiencing, and since it's somewhat new and unfamiliar, it is bringing up confusing feelings.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13991703 - 02/19/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree.  To explain I challenge you to give me one example of a selfless action.

To warn you, I have never lost this contest.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13991802 - 02/19/11 07:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I disagree.  To explain I challenge you to give me one example of a selfless action.

To warn you, I have never lost this contest.




I may feel the need to give someone an acknowledgement sign if they are feeling left out, or I may be especially nice to someone because I think it will benefit their day. I understand that I do this because I would want to be treated this way, but I do not see that as something to gain. The chance of recieving such is unlikely.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13991837 - 02/19/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I disagree.  To explain I challenge you to give me one example of a selfless action.

To warn you, I have never lost this contest.




I may feel the need to give someone an acknowledgement sign if they are feeling left out, or I may be especially nice to someone because I think it will benefit their day. I understand that I do this because I would want to be treated this way, but I do not see that as something to gain. The chance of recieving such is unlikely.



You're not going to win, trust me- I've played this game. The key is to accept selfishness as a way of life, or THE way of life, and not with the negative connotation that it is usually associated with.


--------------------


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary]
    #13991842 - 02/19/11 07:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Something to add- Empathy is a selfish motivator.


--------------------


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary]
    #13991856 - 02/19/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Something to add- Empathy is a selfish motivator.




Why?


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary]
    #13991858 - 02/19/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Another thing- everything you do intentionally is something you pride yourself on. Your rebuttal to this would be selfish. Entirely selfish.


--------------------


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary]
    #13991867 - 02/19/11 07:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I disagree.  To explain I challenge you to give me one example of a selfless action.

To warn you, I have never lost this contest.




I may feel the need to give someone an acknowledgement sign if they are feeling left out, or I may be especially nice to someone because I think it will benefit their day. I understand that I do this because I would want to be treated this way, but I do not see that as something to gain. The chance of recieving such is unlikely.



You're not going to win, trust me- I've played this game. The key is to accept selfishness as a way of life, or THE way of life, and not with the negative connotation that it is usually associated with.




Ice is the ultimate defender of psychological egoism:lol:  It's a compelling theory but I think there are other competing drives to self-interest such as preservation of the species wherein a mother will sacrifice herself for her child and the like.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13991876 - 02/19/11 07:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

auxiliary said:
Something to add- Empathy is a selfish motivator.




Why?



Because you intentionally do something based on how you are feeling, in this case because you feel for someone. But regardless, your intentions stem from how you feel


--------------------


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary]
    #13991880 - 02/19/11 07:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I disagree.  To explain I challenge you to give me one example of a selfless action.

To warn you, I have never lost this contest.




I may feel the need to give someone an acknowledgement sign if they are feeling left out, or I may be especially nice to someone because I think it will benefit their day. I understand that I do this because I would want to be treated this way, but I do not see that as something to gain. The chance of recieving such is unlikely.



You're not going to win, trust me- I've played this game. The key is to accept selfishness as a way of life, or THE way of life, and not with the negative connotation that it is usually associated with.




I believe selfishness is something to submit as the core of ones actions. But in this society of having everything we need I believe that it is not black and white 100 percent greed. Sometimes there is nothing to gain in an action. You can say self satisfaction but I don't think it is really counting unless it is a determining factor in the action itself. Afterward wouldn't count.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13991908 - 02/19/11 08:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
I believe selfishness is something to submit as the core of ones actions. But in this society of having everything we need I believe that it is not black and white 100 percent greed. Sometimes there is nothing to gain in an action. You can say self satisfaction but I don't think it is really counting unless it is a determining factor in the action itself. Afterward wouldn't count.



Let it go. If you honestly don't get a sense of pride by doing "selfless" acts then maybe you haven't an argument. But I am 100% positive that you are not a programmed robot.


--------------------


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary]
    #13991932 - 02/19/11 08:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Another thing- everything you do intentionally is something you pride yourself on. Your rebuttal to this would be selfish. Entirely selfish.




Why does everything have to be pride based? Why can't you just do something because you see a need for it? Once again, I believe the greed is accountable for 99 percent of kindness. I am only trying to argue that claiming it is 100 percent black or white isn't correct.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary]
    #13991939 - 02/19/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
I believe selfishness is something to submit as the core of ones actions. But in this society of having everything we need I believe that it is not black and white 100 percent greed. Sometimes there is nothing to gain in an action. You can say self satisfaction but I don't think it is really counting unless it is a determining factor in the action itself. Afterward wouldn't count.



Let it go. If you honestly don't get a sense of pride by doing "selfless" acts then maybe you haven't an argument. But I am 100% positive that you are not a programmed robot.




Why does one have to have pride in what they do? And all the time?


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13991971 - 02/19/11 08:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I disagree.  To explain I challenge you to give me one example of a selfless action.

To warn you, I have never lost this contest.




I may feel the need to give someone an acknowledgement sign if they are feeling left out, or I may be especially nice to someone because I think it will benefit their day. I understand that I do this because I would want to be treated this way, but I do not see that as something to gain. The chance of recieving such is unlikely.





Well you already destroyed your own argument but beyond that  you choose to treat others in ways that you feel are correct or right even if you have to give something up to do it. (even your life) You will choose to follow the path that is most important to your self image. This is just how we work. We never do anything that goes against who we believe we are or what we think of as right. So we do everything for that reason first and foremost and that is so we can live with ourselves. We are designed to be selfish as a survival mechanism.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13991993 - 02/19/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Why does one have to have pride in what they do? And all the time?



When did I say all the time? When you do a "selfless" act for the good of another, are you disappointed in yourself or are you happy with the fact that what you did is inline with your moral code?


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary]
    #13992012 - 02/19/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You're not going to win, trust me- I've played this game. The key is to accept selfishness as a way of life, or THE way of life, and not with the negative connotation that it is usually associated with.


Right,  Being selfish can be of benefit to others or it may not.  It all depends on what we view as important for ourselves.  I like dogs so I take good care of them. They benefit from this but it is hardly a selfless act on my part.  I would go far out of my way to help a dog in need but that is far from selfless on my part. It's important that I see myself as that kind of person. Still it's of great benefit to the doggers.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992181 - 02/19/11 08:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You're not going to win, trust me- I've played this game. The key is to accept selfishness as a way of life, or THE way of life, and not with the negative connotation that it is usually associated with.


Right,  Being selfish can be of benefit to others or it may not.  It all depends on what we view as important for ourselves.  I like dogs so I take good care of them. They benefit from this but it is hardly a selfless act on my part.  I would go far out of my way to help a dog in need but that is far from selfless on my part. It's important that I see myself as that kind of person. Still it's of great benefit to the doggers.




You've never just wanted to do something so something od someone could benefit because you had spare time? I find this hard to believe.

Why does it have to be so black and white? Why can't there be even rare exceptions to this rule?


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992229 - 02/19/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Why? Because that's the way we're made that's why. 

You don't seem to be listening.  I never said our actions can't benefit others.  I said and have shown you that we always act first and foremost for ourselves.  Too bad that doesn't fit in with your subjective belief system but that in no way changes the facts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992233 - 02/19/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I said and have shown you that we always act first and foremost for ourselves.




Or for the survival of the species, like I mentioned as in the case of the mother sacrificing herself for her child.


--------------------
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992249 - 02/19/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't consider that a motivating factor.  The mother acts because that is what she views as important to her.  Not all mothers would do this. Many would not.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992262 - 02/19/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Sure, but my point is that the drive to protect one's young is just as valid a drive as the drive to benefit the self.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992293 - 02/19/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Valid? What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

The drive to satisfy the self is 100%. 


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992299 - 02/19/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

IMO it shows that we don't always "act first and foremost for ourselves", as in the case of the mother who is acting first and foremost for her child.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992337 - 02/19/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The case of the mother sacrificing for her child is interesting. I would agree that the mother is acting in a sense selfishly, seeing the child as an extension of herself. Imagine what would happen if people started to see the collective benefit of the species and the planet as an extension of their selves? In a very real sense this shift in perspective (consciousness?) would be beneficial to the individual self, if it was to catch on with the masses. Now that is selfishness I can get down with. :cool:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992343 - 02/19/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Valid? What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

The drive to satisfy the self is 100%. 




How loose a definition of acting on self gain.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992350 - 02/19/11 09:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Not true,  You can't demonstrate that.  If it were true all mothers or at least a majority of mothers would sacrifice themselves and you can't demonstrate it.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992356 - 02/19/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Valid? What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

The drive to satisfy the self is 100%. 




How loose a definition of acting on self gain.




What?


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992359 - 02/19/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Alos this argument seems subjective.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992366 - 02/19/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
The case of the mother sacrificing for her child is interesting. I would agree that the mother is acting in a sense selfishly, seeing the child as an extension of herself. Imagine what would happen if people started to see the collective benefit of the species and the planet as an extension of their selves? In a very real sense this shift in perspective (consciousness?) would be beneficial to the individual self, if it was to catch on with the masses. Now that is selfishness I can get down with. :cool:




I'd call it selfishness on the species level rather than the individual level.

Quote:

Icelander said:
If it were true all mothers or at least a majority of mothers would sacrifice themselves and you can't demonstrate it.




I'm not saying anything about what percentage of mothers act on the drive; all I'm saying is that the drive exists and people can act on it.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992370 - 02/19/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:  You're really grasping at straws  here.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992377 - 02/19/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
The case of the mother sacrificing for her child is interesting. I would agree that the mother is acting in a sense selfishly, seeing the child as an extension of herself. Imagine what would happen if people started to see the collective benefit of the species and the planet as an extension of their selves? In a very real sense this shift in perspective (consciousness?) would be beneficial to the individual self, if it was to catch on with the masses. Now that is selfishness I can get down with. :cool:




I'd call it selfishness on the species level rather than the individual level.

Quote:

Icelander said:
If it were true all mothers or at least a majority of mothers would sacrifice themselves and you can't demonstrate it.




I'm not saying anything about what percentage of mothers act on the drive; all I'm saying is that the drive exists and people can act on it.





Can they?  How would you know that?


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992392 - 02/19/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It's a common sense assumption about their psychological state; how else can we know what motivates any other person?  Your assumption that someone is acting selfishly when they steal money is also exactly that: an assumption.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992402 - 02/19/11 09:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Valid? What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

The drive to satisfy the self is 100%. 




How loose a definition of acting on self gain.




What?




To say that self gain is to simply do what you think is right is bullshit imo. People are going to do what they think is right because obviously they came to the conlusion that other actions are not right.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992405 - 02/19/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It's based in a lot of anecdotal evidence.  To say that a mother consciously is motivated to save the species is based in what evidence?


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992433 - 02/19/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Valid? What in the hell does that have to do with this discussion?

The drive to satisfy the self is 100%. 




How loose a definition of acting on self gain.




What?




To say that self gain is to simply do what you think is right is bullshit imo. People are going to do what they think is right because obviously they came to the conlusion that other actions are not right.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.





What? I never said that people only do what they believe is right. I said that they do what supports their self image and/or desires. 

Again we always act in our own behalf first and foremost just as you are determined to continue believing that you can act selflessly. It's how you need to see the world and yourself. Even though there is no truth to it or any evidence for it.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992436 - 02/19/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It's based in a lot of anecdotal evidence.  To say that a mother consciously is motivated to save the species is based in what evidence?




That evolutionarily speaking, life seeks to survive and propagate the species.  Selfishness serves the first drive, and sacrificing yourself for your child serves the second.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992457 - 02/19/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Possibly as an unconscious drive but I see no evidence of it. Animals may fight to protect their young but in nature they usually break off the fight when the outcome means their own death.  A mother can have more offspring. The survival drive for the individual wins.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992467 - 02/19/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Animals may fight to protect their young but in nature they usually break off the fight when the outcome means their own death.  A mother can have more offspring. The survival drive for the individual wins.




Even if selfishness usually overcomes the drive to save one's young, this means there are still cases where it does not.  I'm not arguing that selfishness isn't our most common drive (I agree with you that it is), but you can't deny that sometimes we aren't as motivated by it as we are other drives.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992488 - 02/19/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.





What? I never said that people only do what they believe is right. I said that they do what supports their self image and/or desires. 

Again we always act in our own behalf first and foremost just as you are determined to continue believing that you can act selflessly. It's how you need to see the world and yourself. Even though there is no truth to it or any evidence for it.




There is no truth or evidence toward people acting for self gain 100 percent of the time. Prove it wrong. Otherwise it is subjective, just as mine.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992496 - 02/19/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

But I'm saying I don't agree.  I think always the self interest drive takes precedence.  I admit you might have a point but I don't think you do.  The fact that a mother dies defending her young may well be the belief that she can save the child and herself. This his how it seems to work in nature.  I see this often in observing deer. When the danger becomes overwhelming she leaves off defending her young.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992503 - 02/19/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.





What? I never said that people only do what they believe is right. I said that they do what supports their self image and/or desires. 

Again we always act in our own behalf first and foremost just as you are determined to continue believing that you can act selflessly. It's how you need to see the world and yourself. Even though there is no truth to it or any evidence for it.




There is no truth or evidence toward people acting for self gain 100 percent of the time. Prove it wrong. Otherwise it is subjective, just as mine.



:lol:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992511 - 02/19/11 09:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Animals may fight to protect their young but in nature they usually break off the fight when the outcome means their own death.  A mother can have more offspring. The survival drive for the individual wins.




Even if selfishness usually overcomes the drive to save one's young, this means there are still cases where it does not.  I'm not arguing that selfishness isn't our most common drive (I agree with you that it is), but you can't deny that sometimes we aren't as motivated by it as we are other drives.




This is what I've been trying to say the whole time. Everyone should be able to say deep down self gain is almost exclusively the goal in actions. Almost exclusive.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992528 - 02/19/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Seanfu said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
.

It is so broad to use that as self gain.





What? I never said that people only do what they believe is right. I said that they do what supports their self image and/or desires. 

Again we always act in our own behalf first and foremost just as you are determined to continue believing that you can act selflessly. It's how you need to see the world and yourself. Even though there is no truth to it or any evidence for it.




There is no truth or evidence toward people acting for self gain 100 percent of the time. Prove it wrong. Otherwise it is subjective, just as mine.



:lol:




Well, prove it. I think otherwise it has to be considered that acting without self gain as the primary motive is ((possible))


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13992557 - 02/19/11 09:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

All discussion here is subjective.  Yet there is a preponderance of evidence out there that we always act in our own self interest first and foremost and no one has ever demonstrated that we do not. 

This is as good as it's gonna get. If you choose to believe otherwise that's your business.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992602 - 02/19/11 09:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
This his how it seems to work in nature.  I see this often in observing deer. When the danger becomes overwhelming she leaves off defending her young.




Sure, selfishness can beat out the altruistic drive in certain cases, but there are many examples where it does not.  The spider Stegodyphus, for instance, will allow itself to be consumed by its offspring for food.  Vervet monkeys will issue cries of alarm when a predator is seen, even though that decreases the chances of their individual survival.  Animals do occasionally behave in ways that maximize the fitness of other individuals in the population at the expense of their own.  :shrug:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992645 - 02/19/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Could be, can you show a human example? And it would always be an unconscious motivation as far as I can see. And it would never be selfless as one is part of the species they are trying to preserve. So we are back to no selfless act even on an unconscious level.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992664 - 02/19/11 10:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I've already given a human example: the mother sacrificing herself for her child.  Any action where a human maximizes the fitness of other humans at the expense of their own is an altruistic action.  The Buddhist monks who immolated themselves as a means of stopping their persecution by the South Vietnamese would also be performing altruistic, conscious actions by this definition.

As regards to selfless: if you're defining a selfless individual as one who acts with NO concern for themselves then I'd say this doesn't exist; there will always be an unconscious selfish drive.  But at the same time there will always be an unconscious altruistic drive.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992706 - 02/19/11 10:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I've already given a human example: the mother sacrificing herself for her child.

There is no way to determine why the mother is sacrificing herself.  It may be because she thinks its the right thing to do.

In your example of the Buddhist they are imo doing it to satisfy their own belief system of how they should act and feel and that action brings them happiness and fulfillment. Back to self serving again.:shrug: There is nothing about that act that I would consider selfless.  Like someone giving their life for their country or maybe you consider that a selfless act too.:wink:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992715 - 02/19/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Any action where a human maximizes the fitness of other humans at the expense of their own is an altruistic action.




Since humans perform these actions, humans therefore can be altruistic.  (Not to mention the several examples I listed from the animal kingdom.)  I don't see how you can argue against this.

Quote:

Icelander said:
There is nothing about that act that I would consider selfless.




Sure.  My point is that it's still altruistic.  :shrug:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992740 - 02/19/11 10:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

NO.Altruism (pronounced /ˈæltruːɪzəm/) is selfless concern for the welfare of others.

It is not selfless if you are benefiting from it.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992750 - 02/19/11 10:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Do you or do you not agree that any action where a human maximizes the fitness of other humans at the expense of their own is an altruistic action?  I'm not talking about selfless here as that concept implies the complete absence of a selfish drive, which as I previously agreed with you is unlikely to occur.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992756 - 02/19/11 10:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm going by the second definition as stated by Merriam-Webster:

2: behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992761 - 02/19/11 10:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

No I don't agree.  I posted the definition above. Altruism by definition means selfless.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992768 - 02/19/11 10:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Read above.  The second definition doesn't use the concept selfless, so it's perfectly correct to say that humans, as well as animals, can behave altruistically.

Quote:

deCypher said:
I'm not talking about selfless here as that concept implies the complete absence of a selfish drive, which as I previously agreed with you is unlikely to occur.




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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992780 - 02/19/11 10:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I'm going by the second definition as stated by Merriam-Webster:

2: behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species




And I'm saying there is a benefit to or for the doer.  Either specifically or as in being a member of the species they are trying to save.

The term altruism may also refer to an ethical doctrine that claims that individuals are morally obliged to benefit others. Does this sound selfless?:wink:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992791 - 02/19/11 10:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

But there IS no benefit to the spider who lets itself get eaten by its own young, or to the Buddhist monk who lights himself on fire.  I don't think it's correct to say that they're somehow benefited just because they're a member of the species they're helping; no... instead they're benefiting the species to the detriment of themselves.

Quote:

Icelander said:
The term altruism may also refer to an ethical doctrine that claims that individuals are morally obliged to benefit others. Does this sound selfless?:wink:




Well, going by that definition alone it says nothing about requiring that there is no benefit to the individual while benefiting others.  :tongue:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992850 - 02/19/11 10:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How is the Monk benefiting the species? In the same way the patriot who dies for his country?  They both are self satisfied by their actions and therefore equally self serving first and foremost. The fact that there is a secondary benefit to others is moot.


A spider is completely instinctual as far as I know and even any action in it's own behalf is instinctual.

Outside of pure instinct which is out of our control there are no selfless actions.  Satisfied?


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992862 - 02/19/11 10:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
But there IS no benefit to the spider who lets itself get eaten by its own young, or to the Buddhist monk who lights himself on fire.  I don't think it's correct to say that they're somehow benefited just because they're a member of the species they're helping; no... instead they're benefiting the species to the detriment of themselves.

Quote:

Icelander said:
The term altruism may also refer to an ethical doctrine that claims that individuals are morally obliged to benefit others. Does this sound selfless?:wink:




Well, going by that definition alone it says nothing about requiring that there is no benefit to the individual while benefiting others.  :tongue:





Any action taken morally has to satisfy the self. We create morals to satisfy our sensibilities.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13992866 - 02/19/11 10:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
How is the Monk benefiting the species? In the same way the patriot who dies for his country?  They both are self satisfied by their actions and therefore equally self serving first and foremost.




The Monk is lighting himself on fire and dying.  That's not a benefit; that's a major decrease in fitness.  Sure, it's possible he felt satisfaction in the few remaining minutes of his life but the overall goal of this actions were to promote survival of his species (more specifically, Buddhist monks) at the expense of his own survival and pleasure (the excruciating pain of the fire: also detrimental to the self).  Altruism clear and simple.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Outside of pure instinct which is out of our control there are no selfless actions.  Satisfied?




For like the third time, I'm NOT talking about selfless actions!  :lol:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992909 - 02/19/11 10:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

But there IS no benefit to the spider who lets itself get eaten by its own young, or to the Buddhist monk who lights himself on fire.




Both these examples are bad.  The spider's baby get to live and the monk becomes a legend. :shrug:

Although under Icelander's definition I suppose the only selfless act one could commit would be to exterminate all life (including yours) on the planet in one fell swoop.

BUT...If there is no self-less act then wouldn't that by extension mean there are no self-ish acts?  There is simple action?

Because if there are no self-less acts, but there are still self-ish acts...then that must be because we are all part of the same great big Self.  In this sense every act is Self-ish.

Has Icelander finally gotten down with the Brahman? :wink:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Cups]
    #13992922 - 02/19/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

But there IS no benefit to the spider who lets itself get eaten by its own young, or to the Buddhist monk who lights himself on fire.




Both these examples are bad.  The spider's baby get to live and the monk becomes a legend. :shrug




Exactly; the spider's altruistic act has benefited its species and the monk's legendariness has benefited other Buddhist monks.  Perfect examples of altruism.  :thumbup:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993049 - 02/19/11 11:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The definition of Altruism is selfless.  I'm talking about the primary definition which you choose to ignore for some strange reason.  You also choose to ignore my example of the patriot soldier who "gives his life for his country". How is he any different than the buddhist. Fighting for his tribe. Could anything be more self serving?

I have no idea  what you are talking about anymore.  My original statement is there are no selfless actions. We act for our own interests first and foremost. I have no idea what you are talking about. :shrug:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993058 - 02/19/11 11:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Indifference =/= Compasionateless  ?

I think that many people focus thier compassion for thier own purposes, and to strengthen its focus in time.  Because you are indifferent to one cause, doesn't mean that you lack compassion in general?

Like say that I have 0 compassion for poor people. The reasoning for this is because thier choices and actions led to thier current predicament. I too have been poor, and know that it isn't that bad, with some ingenuity.

Does this make me without compassion?


It simply implies that I allocate my compassion to matters that I determine worthy of it or on matters where it would actually matter.

I mean what help is it to anyone for you to feel bad for someone?

I would personally be offended if someone felt bad for me. It is simply amplifying the negative vibe.

However, if you place your compassion on matters that you can help, it aids your passion, as they go hand in hand. I don't see the point in feeling bad about something that you cannot change, yet using it to your advantage to amplify your passion when applicable.

I don't think it's a mistake that compassion is comprised of passion.

By logically choosing where to place your compassion, does not lessen the selflessness of a given action.

You are simply choosing the course in which you would be most beneficial.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13993072 - 02/19/11 11:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, there are no selfless actions because we always have a selfish drive.  But there can be altruistic actions going by the secondary definition, which shows us that not only animals but humans can be altruistic.  This has been my point all along... I guess the confusion rested (as it always does) in which definition you're using of altruistic.

Re: the soldier; just like the self-immolating Buddhist, he is performing an altruistic action (going by the 2nd definition).  He is benefiting his country (other people) to the detriment of himself (his life).  He also probably possesses a selfish drive in the form of wanting posthumous glory or some such thing; therefore he is not committing a selfless act.

We all good now?  :lol:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993083 - 02/19/11 11:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Also, it's not like I'm using a particularly obscure or obsolete definition of "altruism"; just search around on Wiki @ the Altruism in Animals page and you'll see it used in that sense all over.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993087 - 02/19/11 11:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think anyone who comes to the realization that they are but a tool of humanity, and uses this knowledge to the best of their ability, to benefit humanity should be considered selfless.

Benefitting yourself is besides the point. Benefits can be a useful motivation, and aid in your Long Term Goal. Afterall you must stay alive to achieve the goal. Unless of course the goal is death :P

Really though, ones motivation is only for them to decide. Many people are better motivated to accomplish long term goals by accomplishing short term ones in the process.

How can you ever truly know another persons motivation?


Edited by teknix (02/19/11 11:20 PM)


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993091 - 02/19/11 11:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:rofl: I'll let Ice deal with ya 'cause I'm feeling tired but there is no such thing as a completely selfless act.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993104 - 02/19/11 11:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I guess since we were talking about totally different things.:lol:

Altruism is totally lame imo.  (by your definition) Any yahoo can claim they are doing it for others. The christian trying to save you from hell by making laws telling you what to do for example. How sweet.  Have fun with Altruism.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993108 - 02/19/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
I think anyone who comes to the realization that they are but a tool of humanity, and uses this knowledge to the best of their ability, to benefit humanity should be considered selfless.





No that's altruism. :rofl2:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13993117 - 02/19/11 11:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Altruism is totally lame imo.  (by your definition) Any yahoo can claim they are doing it for others.




Well, their claim will only be correct if their actions are beneficial to others and are detrimental to themselves.  :shrug:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993128 - 02/19/11 11:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

who decides all that?


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993135 - 02/19/11 11:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Altruism is totally lame imo.  (by your definition) Any yahoo can claim they are doing it for others.




Well, their claim will only be correct if their actions are beneficial to others and are detrimental to themselves.  :shrug:




I think you mean Proven correct.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13993144 - 02/19/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
who decides all that?




Depends of course.  You'll run into problems like you mention when you get the case of Christians who think they're benefiting you by proselytizing the Word of Christ.  :lol:

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Well, their claim will only be correct if their actions are beneficial to others and are detrimental to themselves.  :shrug:




I think you mean Proven correct.




It's valid English to say that a claim is correct, no?  Don't necessarily have to include "proven."


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993155 - 02/19/11 11:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Isn't the determination of a selfless act directly correlated to thier motivation for that act?


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993159 - 02/19/11 11:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There is no such thing as a selfless act!


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993163 - 02/19/11 11:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
who decides all that?




Depends of course.  You'll run into problems like you mention when you get the case of Christians who think they're benefiting you by proselytizing the Word of Christ.  :lol:

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Well, their claim will only be correct if their actions are beneficial to others and are detrimental to themselves.  :shrug:




I think you mean Proven correct.




It's valid English to say that a claim is correct, no?  Don't necessarily have to include "proven."




Well, the claim could have been correct even before it was proven, you just didn't know it.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993168 - 02/19/11 11:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Sure...


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993170 - 02/19/11 11:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

On this we agree. :lol:

But I'm off to dreamland now  I will dream of naked women walking out in public.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13993171 - 02/19/11 11:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
On this we agree. :lol:

But I'm off to dreamland now  I will dream of naked women walking out in public.




:highfive: sweet dreams.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher]
    #13993185 - 02/19/11 11:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Anyways, I'm not here to debate. I just wanted to share how I see it in hopes that you would in turn share your own rationale, that I might understand how you arrived to this conclusion.

I can't see it.

Paint me a vivid picture :smile:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #13993201 - 02/19/11 11:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I usually end up naked out in public. In my dreams.


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993206 - 02/19/11 11:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm heading to bed pretty soon here so I'll have to pass, but this thread and this article on psychological egoism should give you some compelling reasons to believe it.  :cool:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary] * 1
    #13993216 - 02/19/11 11:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Selfless acts don't exist because the self is all :bongload:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary]
    #13993225 - 02/19/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

That is true if you know that. But I don't think that Icelander knows that?

If this was the true definition of self, there would be no need for the word selfless.

However, in the context presented, and the source, I had assumed self to be referred as an individual being.

Was I wrong to assume that?


Edited by teknix (02/19/11 11:46 PM)


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993277 - 02/19/11 11:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
That is true if you know that. But I don't think that Icelander knows that?


:awesomenod:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: auxiliary] * 1
    #13993288 - 02/19/11 11:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

WTF universe is this anyway?

:eek:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993294 - 02/19/11 11:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think I took a wrong turn somewhere back in the lower Astral Planes.  :crazy:


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13993314 - 02/19/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

However, in the context presented, and the source, I had assumed self to be referred as an individual being.

Was I wrong to assume that?


No, unless we're referring to altrusim, I think. I'm on boat for the self being it's own motivation. I think animals may have a more connected existence and therefore are altruisic. I'm sorta throwin ideas up at the moment I'm plenty stoned


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13994222 - 02/20/11 05:05 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Whether what you do is selfish or selfless, truley does not even matter. What matters is solely your highest belief of what you are doing. That is the ultimate truth.

If we are little bitty selves of one big self than yes, selfless things are ultimately selfish. But that's why we have seperation, so we can lose that feeling of everything just being for the self, and there being no reason to do anything unselfish because there is nobody else there. That's why we're not God. Being God would suck ass. Seperation is so we forget. And at facevalue, we're not God, so it seems to be working well.

And paradoxically, we find them same problem within our isolated concious, the very thing we might've considered improbable in separation.

Of course the solution to a problem with no solution is that its not a problem at all and never was anything more than a delusional manifestation of having too much time on our hands.

All I can say is that even though we may be both one, I'm glad that you don't know my conciousness, and I don't know yours. It leaves a lot of interesting new things to be introduced to my conciousness by creating something outside of it by limiting its perception of what ultimately is only itself.

Remember people, focus on the positive aspects. Just because their are negative ones, does not mean by looking at the positive aspects that you are looking at something false. It's just means you made the right choice. And when in doubt, get immersed in the world. That's why we made it, so we're not eternally contemplating, but we have something fun to do. Eternal contemplation will get you no where, and fun won't either, but when you're having fun, getting somewhere is suddenly not important. You have arrived where you wanted to go.

Sometimes things that are really fun take a lot of work too, like for example right now i'm working on an album. It'll be fun getting mad pussy when I play it for the girls in my car. I guess I could get mad pussy anyway, but this pussy will be dripping wet with desire, because I am that god damn good at creating perfection.


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Edited by beatnicknick (02/20/11 06:00 AM)


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: teknix]
    #13994390 - 02/20/11 07:15 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
That is true if you know that. But I don't think that Icelander knows that?

If this was the true definition of self, there would be no need for the word selfless.

However, in the context presented, and the source, I had assumed self to be referred as an individual being.

Was I wrong to assume that?





There is the word God and yet no proof of one. Also FSM and no evidence of one.:shrug:

Words don't have to have a concrete reality dear one.

The Icelander knows. 


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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: beatnicknick]
    #13994395 - 02/20/11 07:18 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I wouldn't have or want to take the time to point out all the perceived fallacies in that post.:whoa:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13994461 - 02/20/11 07:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well I personally don't believe in true and false, I believe in belief and disbelief.

You only believe an apple will fall to the ground when you let go of it, and you only believe it because you just did it ten times, and it happened every time. But to say that when you let go of an apple it is true it will fall, you're believening in your past and the perception of it, and you're believening in its reliability. You're making all kinds of assumptions based on nothing but your experience, which is not something you can even prove exists is true to anyone, they just have to believe you when you say you exist.

It's just when belief solidifies itself enough, people label it as true or false. Whether it really is or not it doesn't matter, because its a belief of theirs and they have to make leaps over logic to think believing something makes it true or false. Life's an opinion, not a fact.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (02/20/11 08:03 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: beatnicknick]
    #13994788 - 02/20/11 10:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You're making all kinds of assumptions based on nothing but your experience, which is not something you can even prove exists is true to anyone, they just have to believe you when you say you exist.

Well this is the Mystery forum.  :lol:
There's a huge difference in my believing I can leap over tall buildings and the belief shared by billions of people that gravity exists.  But you carry on.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13994830 - 02/20/11 10:17 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You're making all kinds of assumptions based on nothing but your experience, which is not something you can even prove exists is true to anyone, they just have to believe you when you say you exist.

Well this is the Mystery forum.  :lol:
There's a huge difference in my believing I can leap over tall buildings and the belief shared by billions of people that gravity exists.  But you carry on.:satansmoking:




We've seen in cases mysterious healing just because a person felt the touch of Jesus. If thats not belief altering physical reality I don't know what is.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:


Edited by Seanfu (02/20/11 10:20 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Seanfu]
    #13994926 - 02/20/11 10:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Can you leap over a tall building?

Post your youtube video here _________:thumbup:

Considering what we know about how stress and belief effect the body the faith healing isn't so mysterious after all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13996670 - 02/20/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You're making all kinds of assumptions based on nothing but your experience, which is not something you can even prove exists is true to anyone, they just have to believe you when you say you exist.

Well this is the Mystery forum.  :lol:
There's a huge difference in my believing I can leap over tall buildings and the belief shared by billions of people that gravity exists.  But you carry on.:satansmoking:




I believe you're right.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (02/20/11 05:03 PM)


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Offlinefloatingupstream

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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: beatnicknick]
    #13996698 - 02/20/11 05:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:confused:


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: floatingupstream]
    #13996820 - 02/20/11 05:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Of course we can always say its at least true we believe, if we're going to say every truth is belief. So at the top we have a truth. But in the end we have to believe in that top truth. I can keep going but there'd be no point.  Paradox after paradox I run into trying to break everything down to the 1's and 0's.


Edited by beatnicknick (02/20/11 05:51 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: beatnicknick]
    #13996848 - 02/20/11 05:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There's a distinct possibility that gravity would operate even if you were not here to believe.:whoa:  No really, It's quite possible that the universe wasn't too conscious at one time.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13996902 - 02/20/11 05:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Of course that's something you and I believe. Endless circles my friend.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: beatnicknick]
    #13996940 - 02/20/11 05:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Actually I don't believe it even if you do. I do believe it's a possibility.  I rarely fully believe anything anymore.  Still I'm inclined towards the material as it hurts when you bump into it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: A problem with Compassion [Re: Icelander]
    #13997119 - 02/20/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Still I'm inclined towards the material as it hurts when you bump into it.



It huts now...


--------------------


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