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Offlinemycocozm


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Senescense question for botanists
    #13981888 - 02/17/11 10:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

In fungi, we can only move so many cell divisions away from the original "mother" before the strain begins to weaken and no matter how much new nutrition/habitat is entroduced, the genome is doomed if there is no sexual reproduction.  Am I correct so far?

Now in plants, I'm wondering if the same rules apply, only on a grander timescale maybe.  Every Granny Smith apple, say, came from a (grafted) clone that came from a clone that came from a clone ad infinitum all the way back to the original Granny Smith.  Well, when does old man time catch up with the variety and say "NO MORE?"


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InvisibleBacchus
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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: mycocozm]
    #13984948 - 02/18/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well, there's Lomatia tasmanica. Every individual is part of a family line of clones going back at least 40,000 years. The plants are actually sterile and completely incapable of sexual reproduction.

There's the creosote shrub of SW North America. Individual life spans come in just under 1,000 years and there is a clone colony that's over 11,000 years old.

EDIT: I found this article. If I remember, I'll see if I can access the full text from my university library.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2463337


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Edited by Bacchus (02/18/11 02:16 PM)


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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: mycocozm]
    #14002549 - 02/21/11 04:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm just contributing some information I had on hand. I don't think I fully understand the original question. :confused:

Quote:

Such studies...lead to the hypothesis that senescence in leaves, and probably other plant parts as well, results from the "turning off" of segments of DNA , with a consequent loss of mRNA production and protein synthesis. The cytokinins, it is proposed, prevent the DNA from being turned off and so promote continued enzyme synthesis and the continued production of other compounds such as chlorophyll.

Source: Biology of Plants 2nd Edition pg. 494




Also, keep in mind that some plants annual, biannual, and perennial. As such they follow a regular time line of cell death in particular tissues that is a necessary part of a plant's life cycle.


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Offlinemycocozm


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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: Deekay]
    #14003558 - 02/21/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Not even close.  My fault though for using the term 'senescense'.  A more appropriate one would be replicate fading.  I'm not talking about a single plant's life, I'm talking about the life of the genome.  In fungi, a genome only lasts X amount of cell divisions before it weakens.  In plants, I've found that the same occurs, just over a much longer period of time.  A clone of a clone of a clone is closer to death than the clone of a clone.  One day there will be no more satsuma orange or fuju apple or any other named variety of familiar fruit, because they are all born of grafted trees (clones), which are born from grafted trees, etc..  So eventually the strain weakens and dies.  This is called replicate fading.  Fin.


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OfflineDeekay
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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: mycocozm]
    #14003761 - 02/21/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mycocozm said:
This is called replicate fading.  Fin.




Even google doesn't know what that is! :confused:

To quote your original post though...

Quote:

mycocozm said:
Now in plants, I'm wondering if the same rules apply, only on a grander timescale maybe.




I don't think they do. I don't really know much about how fungi reproduce, so I can't really compare it to my limited knowledge of plants. I think it's safe to say though that if this process of clones being closer and closer to death, as you say, it would be heavily documented in horticultural literature.


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Offlinemycocozm


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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: Deekay]
    #14004086 - 02/21/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The term replicate fading, I've never heard before either.  Aside from reading it in Stamets' GGMM, page 91. 

I asked my plant propagation teacher if I had it right, she said she wasn't sure.  My mushroom cultivation teacher (yea I go to a kick ass school) confirmed though that clones get weaker because there is no mixing of the chromosomes to keep the strain vigorous.  That's why we may not have bananas around for too much longer, they went asexual long ago since we have been cloning them for centuries (root cuttings) and now they are becoming susceptible to some fungus that's wiping them out. 
I mean think about it, have you ever eaten a "red delicious" apple?  Nothing could be more misnamed.  It probably tasted great back in the day.  What probably happens is that when a fruit tree reaches X number of cell divisions, it starts to show signs of weakness, so propagators have to cheat and work their asses off to try to get a new suitable strain from seed.  One that they can pass off as the original without the public ever knowing.  That's why its not on the front page.  Let alone the fact that most people couldn't care less.


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OfflineDeekay
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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: mycocozm]
    #14004746 - 02/21/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mycocozm said:
The term replicate fading, I've never heard before either.  Aside from reading it in Stamets' GGMM, page 91. 

I asked my plant propagation teacher if I had it right, she said she wasn't sure.  My mushroom cultivation teacher (yea I go to a kick ass school) confirmed though that clones get weaker because there is no mixing of the chromosomes to keep the strain vigorous.  That's why we may not have bananas around for too much longer, they went asexual long ago since we have been cloning them for centuries (root cuttings) and now they are becoming susceptible to some fungus that's wiping them out. 
I mean think about it, have you ever eaten a "red delicious" apple?  Nothing could be more misnamed.  It probably tasted great back in the day.  What probably happens is that when a fruit tree reaches X number of cell divisions, it starts to show signs of weakness, so propagators have to cheat and work their asses off to try to get a new suitable strain from seed.  One that they can pass off as the original without the public ever knowing.  That's why its not on the front page.  Let alone the fact that most people couldn't care less.




I am not disagreeing with you that fungi experience this loss of genetic viability and vigor, but I am not sure to what degree it affects plants. I'll ask my plant micro bio teacher tomorrow. It does sound slightly ridiculous to claim that bananas will disappear any time soon though. Also, susceptibility to particular fungi and plant diseases can happen through normal plant reproduction, so it's a problem not necessarily caused from cell in-viability per se. In some cases root stocks are used to prevent disease or overcome adverse climate.


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Offlinemycocozm


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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: Deekay]
    #14006240 - 02/22/11 08:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It shouldn't sound too surprising, its kind of a popular meme in our culture that cloning leads to weakened genes.  Anyway, my question has been answered.


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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: mycocozm]
    #14009048 - 02/22/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It's not crazy at all to think that bananas could disappear due to fungal infection. That's exactly what happened in the Irish Potato Famine. The Irish were cultivating potatoes in monoculture and a disease was introduced that proved to be wildly successful.

In the case of the farmed bananas that we're used to, they're all genetically identical (monoculture to the most extreme) and thus all equally susceptible to the fungus. You can almost think of it as the White Devil introducing small pox into North America...

Check out White Nose Syndrome for another example of fungal infection (possibly) driving a species to extinction.


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Edited by Bacchus (02/22/11 06:23 PM)


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OfflineDeekay
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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: mycocozm]
    #14009312 - 02/22/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

My Plant Micro Bio Professor was not much help, but I actually had a great Phd Professor guest speak in my intro to horticulture class today who was loads of help.

This will obviously be paraphrased; repeatedly cloning a species will inevitably lead to some minor mutations in it's genes. Weather or not these mutations are good/bad/indifferent they do not 'weaken' the genome and do not behave like genetically exhausted mycelium. Mutations of cultivars can express themselves through color, leaf shape, or even size and yields. These specimens, however, are removed. On bananas specifically, the current stocks being used were selected based not just on yields; they have many favorable characteristics including strong disease resistance.

Also, a successful disease, virus, or pest can, and will if possible, ravage a species regardless of it's genetics. Viruses are probably a bigger threat than genetic mutation over time. Viruses are passed mainly through layering and cuttings and are not usually transmitted through seed or through more advanced propagation techniques.

Edit: I know you said you got your answer, but I went through the trouble of citing textbooks and bugging professors!  :crankey:


Edited by Deekay (02/22/11 07:16 PM)


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Offlinemycocozm


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Re: Senescense question for botanists [Re: Deekay]
    #14009717 - 02/22/11 08:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

No shit?  Its funny how this wasn't easier to pin down.


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