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Offlinehalo
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Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion
    #13980351 - 02/17/11 06:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

So this topic is fairly straightforward.

Do you believe it is possible to have a spiritual experience (seeing/feeling the presence of God or the divine) without having some type of religious context in which to place it?

Personally, I really do believe it is possible. IMO the spiritual experience of the divine is what preceded religion. In other words I think in the beginning humans in whichever culture have had spiritual experiences and in the desire to put them into context created religions as we now think of them. However I would also extend this to shamanic and indigenous traditions as well. Even if you aren't in an organized religion like Catholicism or Hinduism or Islam or Judaism most of us still have some type of background of ideas to fall back on.

However I also recognize that this is not the case for everyone, especially in Western society in which some people do grow up in households or environments in which there is little to no discussion of religion or God.

And concerning psychedelics, I've certainly had experiences I would call very spiritual, but at the same time I must question whether or not I would have those experiences had I not already been interested in Spirituality or religion in some way. I was raised Catholic but have developed an amalgamation of beliefs since I was around 12 or so and began to question Catholicism. This was also when I first learned about Hinduism and other religions, giving me a way to look at my own religion from the outside.

We were discussing this in one of my classes today and nearly everyone else including the teacher did not think that it was possible or practical to have a spiritual experience outside the framework of a pre-established set of ideas and beliefs. I disagreed but at a point had trouble defending myself because in all honesty though I have had spiritual experiences I can not say for sure whether they were outside the realm of religion and beliefs or not. I've certainly been very high and experienced some high things, and although they were meaningful and beautiful, I always must ask would someone who does not entertain the spiritual or religious be able to experience what I experienced. Tis a dilemma.

Thoughts?


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Offlinelasttime
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: halo]
    #13980388 - 02/17/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I basically agree with you, but I think it's helpful to be aware at least that a spiritual experience is possible beforehand


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Offlinerikuni
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: lasttime]
    #13988903 - 02/19/11 07:12 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

...


Edited by rikuni (03/15/14 04:29 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: rikuni]
    #13989869 - 02/19/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Experience comes first, then interpretation.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: halo]
    #13991701 - 02/19/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Robert K.C. Forman writes extensively on your question. I just received his Mysticism, Mind, Consciousness. I did read The Problem of Pure Consciousness: Mysticism and Philosophy, which addressed this question and related ones. For example, to what extent does our exposure to religious symbols, myths, writings shape mystical experiences? Can there be a PCE (Pure Consciousness Event) that is not 'colored' by our conceptual apparatus?

Oh, BTW, you must get a hold of Frithjof Schuon's book, The Transcendent Unity of Religions, wherein he uses the image of a multifaceted mountain with each face a separate religion, and with differences widest at the bottom, but differences narrowing as one climbs from the exoteric forms to esoteric interior experiences, terminating in a singular, transcendent unity at the peak.



Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/19/11 08:48 PM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13991838 - 02/19/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Can there be a PCE (Pure Consciousness Event) that is not 'colored' by our conceptual apparatus?




I'd argue affirmatively because interpretation (the use of concepts to classify and categorize) always seems to come after perception.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: deCypher]
    #13992145 - 02/19/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

In truly mystical events, I agree. In visionary religious experience, an ontologically inferior experience, I believe that cultural forms entirely color the experience. Catholics just don't experience Tibetan deities, for example.
In the book I'm working on, I refer to these experiences as psychocosmic and psychospiritual, respectively.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13992161 - 02/19/11 08:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Would you mind giving an example of both just to clarify the difference between the two?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: deCypher] * 2
    #13992266 - 02/19/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Sure, quick and easy. The alleged experience of Jesus - "I and the Father are One," (John 10:30) is a formless experience of pure  consciousness and identity; of high intuition to the point of certainty, or, as they say in theology, 'assurance.' The experience of Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2, where Paul relates an OOBE in which there were visions and voices - in other words, form - and which fits the bill of visionary experience. Jesus' experience was at least Causal Plane and probably Non-dual. Whereas Paul's experience was high Subtle Plane experience. I am using these Yogic categories, but I am also relying on some of Ken Wilber's slightly older writings. Ken recognizes these things and conceptualizes them much as I have even from before my exposure to his work. We think alike in these matters.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13992275 - 02/19/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks.  :mushroom2:

I'd be interested in ordering a copy of your book whenever you finish it!


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #13992285 - 02/19/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hey Markos, have you read any Ken Wilber, what do you think of his work?

Edit: Oh, I see you mentioned him, lol. His SoundsTrue talks are way easier to understand than his books.
He's got it all mapped out. He clarifies a lot of misconceptions and oversimplifications.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: halo]
    #13992320 - 02/19/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think you hit the nail on the head. I personally feel that the division created by religion is counterproductive to sprituality as a whole.

Every religion I can think of creates these lines that sperate the whole of humanity. Some of the lines are finer than other's, but exist none the less.

I think true spirituality couldn't be achieved with these notions that thier personal experiences are limited to that single genre, or path, that they percieve to have initiated such an experience.

By putting an emphesis on the singular path, 1st creates and indent, into our foundation. The more that path is fallowed the indent, gradually, deepens. Much like a stream of water over many many years.

Eventually you are left with a grand canyon of a path, that no longer has any tangents or derivitives. The path in now isolated itself from its surroundings.

What started as any idea and a feeling with endless directions, slowly became narrowed and engraven into the very bedrock of an attempted and vague description, of how one experienced what they did.

By taking this well trodden path, it is difficult to see anything beyond these canyon walls. You are in a hole with others taking this path. You assume this is the only one, because it is all you can see.

However, by soaring above, you can see that all of these paths are leading to the exact same thing. From the outside looking in.


Edited by teknix (02/19/11 09:15 PM)


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: teknix]
    #13992379 - 02/19/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Religion is a form of belief. No doubt it shapes perception. It can be useful in the sense of the terminology is provides to express truth. I've found the Western-scientific-out-of-body paradigm provides the most useful map for a young Westerner like myself. However as Mr. Wilber aptly says, "the map is not the territory". Don't get caught up in the dogma of any spiritual tradition. Explore and derive your own truth.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: halo]
    #13994521 - 02/20/11 08:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

halo said:
Do you believe it is possible to have a spiritual experience (seeing/feeling the presence of God or the divine) without having some type of religious context in which to place it?





Its the only way! The absolute state of nature (us) is before our minds think anything, so before any creation of that mind like religion

Sometimes its good to have a context in order to push your limits, i used to have experiences of losing my mind & would fear it happening as those experiences can be initially uncomfortable to go through but now due to buddhism & vedanta i can totally welcome those kind of states to happen

Religion is really a beautiful thing that man creates out of a deep reverence of the beauty of natures infinity, of course any institution that man creates then falls into corruption & control issues but the widely held view that religion was created in order to control people is misguided imo, all true religions carry a vibe of that timeless beauty in their core.

It can be a catch 22 because out of deep devotion to a religion a human can gain the humility needed to experience that powerful subtleness, the total purity & perfection of spirit, but then the mind of man can associate that it was the devotion to the religious teachings as to what brought about that experience, when its merely the act of total devotion itself.


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OfflineTony
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: Chronic7]
    #13995543 - 02/20/11 12:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Spiritual, But Not Religious? Ken Wilber and Father Thomas Keating


The goal of the tradition, suggests Fr. Thomas in this week's video, is transformation—but transformation into what?

The answer depends on what stage of development you're at. Beyond becoming a better person (though your family and friends may thank you profusely), beyond even becoming a saint, Fr. Thomas suggests that the goal of the mature Christian life is to become no thing. As with any developmental sequence, the subject of one stage becomes the object of the subject of the next—in this case, until absolute Subjectivity itself. The problem—and the challenge—lie in the fact that, among its 2 billion adherents, relatively few are aware of Christianity's mystical tradition and contemplative path. Statements like "I'm spiritual, but not religious" actually come from a fairly evolved place, from which one rejects external aspects of the tradition, while still longing for its esoteric wisdom.


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Offlinehalo
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Re: Spiritual Experience Outside of the Context of Religion [Re: Tony]
    #14023847 - 02/25/11 02:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I really like how this discussion turned out. I would've commented sooner but I've been busy lately and unable to.

What I'm ultimately feeling is that the true, mystical experience is actually the experience of nothing. We rarely if ever experience the void, experience pure nothingness. It's such a strange sensation that our mind might put up things in front of it, for example like when you're sitting in a dark room (sober) and you still see things cause your mind is projecting things onto the nothingness. If you can get to the nothingness, AND get outside your mind, it seems like to me that is the pure experience of everything/nothing at once.

Sorry this might not make sense but I figured I'd toss that idea in the discussion well.


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