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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
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illinois beats wisconsin...
    #13979959 - 02/17/11 05:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

IL raises taxes on the wealthy...
WI goes broke and blames it on unions...

tragically..the repugs will prevail in WI...beyond that..im betting my money on illinois...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1] * 1
    #13980155 - 02/17/11 05:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Unfortunately, laws that protect unions are to blame for a lot of the mess the country is in.  So are bad business practices.  So is out of control spending by Congress.  So are tax laws the encourage people and companies to invest outside of the US.  So are tax loopholes.  So are overbearing regulations.

Rather than taking a partisan stand and bitching, why not look at the bigger picture and offer some suggestions to fix it.  The bigger picture would be the one where you drop the partisan BS and recognize that there is plenty of blame to spread around.  Of course, what would I know... just a corporate shill.  :rolleyes:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13981365 - 02/17/11 09:11 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Rather than taking a partisan stand and bitching, why not look at the bigger picture and offer some suggestions to fix it.  The bigger picture would be the one where you drop the partisan BS and recognize that there is plenty of blame to spread around.




:yesnod:


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Invisiblezorbman
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13981874 - 02/17/11 10:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What was the spread?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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InvisibleMe_Roy
Stranger
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zorbman]
    #13982187 - 02/17/11 11:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Wisconsin teachers get great health care and decent pensions. None of them are rolling in dough.  None of that is anything they should be ashamed of.  We should all have health insurance of that quality.  And without throwing teachers that bone, how else are you going to attract talented people to the profession?  There's 0 chance of becoming wealthy as a teacher -- do they not deserve the dignity of middle-class status and security in knowing that they won't go bankrupt because of health problems?  Why else should one go to college to make, what, 30 grand upon graduation? ...and the pay scale is none too steep, either.  Average salaries hover around 50. 

A couple of months ago, it looked like Wisconsin was on-track for a modest budget surplus.  Scott Walker took office and, among other things, offered corporate tax breaks totaling 100+ million, about the amount of current projected budget deficit.  Of course, teachers' benefits and corporate taxes aren't the only two factors in play -- I mean to point out that this deficit is the product of (inherently political) decisions. 

I think it's reasonable to ask teachers and other public workers to contribute more to their pensions and health plans.  This would be worthy of serious negotiation.  But busting the unions and destroying their ability to collectively negotiate through a top-down decree is a raw deal of the kind that merits a state assembly in exile and a state capital full of protesters.  This is the only way that dissenting voices will be heard.

Scott Walker is a union-buster.  Bust the unions and the right wing has no competition for major campaign donations.  This is an overtly partisan political move by Scott Walker -- not an apolitical, fiscal one.  That's why it merits a political response.  There is no other appropriate response.  If supporting the unions means taking sides in the polarized D vs. R battle, so be it.  Walker's salvo is too extreme to elicit complacency.




Edited by Me_Roy (02/17/11 11:52 PM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zorbman]
    #13982426 - 02/17/11 11:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
What was the spread?




~8000 votes in favour of pat quinn(D) over bill brady(R) for IL governor...had it gone the other way..we might have had madison playing out in springfield.. with both states swapping their absentee senators...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13983125 - 02/18/11 03:52 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> their absentee senators...

Speaking of absentee senators, these gems are beyond belief:

State Senator Mark Miller:
Quote:

we are in what we consider a secure location outside the capital. We are not all in one place at this time.




What?  Is there some conspiracy to kill all of them?  Are they in mortal danger?  Were they forced to flee for their lives?  But wait, it gets better:

Quote:

[by leaving we are] trying to allow an opportunity for democracy to work.



Juxtaposed with:
Quote:

We demand that the provisions that completely eliminate the ability of workers… to negotiate on a fair basis with their employers be removed from the budget repair bill and any other future budget.




Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands. 

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.  The Alex Jones twist only makes them appear that much more delusional.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13983523 - 02/18/11 08:53 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




Tell it to Mitch McConnell. Unfuckingbelievable. Were you born without shame, or did you lose it?

Quote:

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.




The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: jimbotron]
    #13983678 - 02/18/11 09:36 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




Tell it to Mitch McConnell. Unfuckingbelievable. Were you born without shame, or did you lose it?




What are you babbling about?  These Dem senators are abdicating the job they were hired to do, just like the teachers who are falsely and fraudulently calling in sick.  They should be fired.

Just for your edification democracy is doing what the people elected you to do within the structure of the laws the people have determined.  There is a reason why the people of Wisconsin elected Republicans.  It was to do this.
Quote:



Quote:

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.




The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The unions are not the people.  In fact, the public sector unions have been bribing politicians to fuck the people for decades.  The people having spoken through the ballot say FUCK UNION SCUM.  Did you know that if the greedy teachers didn't demand so much money for each of themselves the state could hire more teachers and have more and better educational facilities?  It's true.  The greedy shitfucks don't give two tenths of a shit about the children.  If they did they wouldn't oppose charter schools and school choice.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13984395 - 02/18/11 12:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




what compromise??...if the repugs have 17 votes out of 33 in WI.. then its their way or the the highway...the democrats wisely chose the highway...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #13984451 - 02/18/11 12:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




Tell it to Mitch McConnell. Unfuckingbelievable. Were you born without shame, or did you lose it?




What are you babbling about?  These Dem senators are abdicating the job they were hired to do, just like the teachers who are falsely and fraudulently calling in sick.  They should be fired.

Just for your edification democracy is doing what the people elected you to do within the structure of the laws the people have determined.  There is a reason why the people of Wisconsin elected Republicans.  It was to do this.
Quote:



Quote:

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.




The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The unions are not the people.  In fact, the public sector unions have been bribing politicians to fuck the people for decades.  The people having spoken through the ballot say FUCK UNION SCUM.  Did you know that if the greedy teachers didn't demand so much money for each of themselves the state could hire more teachers and have more and better educational facilities?  It's true.  The greedy shitfucks don't give two tenths of a shit about the children.  If they did they wouldn't oppose charter schools and school choice.




What are teachers asking for that makes them 'greedy shitfucks'?  Teachers go to college for two to four years, most likely incurring some debt, in order to make not much more than 25,000 their first year.  Average salaries are around 50,000.  Teachers with Ph.D.s or Masters + 10 (maximum coursework without writing a dissertation) might crack 60 or 70, but I'd doubt any hit 80.  And at this point they're piling on administrative responsibilities that push their workweek well over 40/week, nullifying the benefit of summer break.

I've heard of Wisconsin school superintendents making 120-ish and, indeed, that might be too much.  But that's one person per school district.

This is a job that requires both the expense and time of higher education and the patience to deal with a room of 20-30 kids.

Unions can work against the greater good.  I've heard first-hand stories of corrupt teamsters, for example.  But how else are workers to represent their interests?  A single voice has little power.  I see no shame in collective negotiation.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13984452 - 02/18/11 12:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




what compromise??...if the repugs have 17 votes out of 33 in WI.. then its their way or the the highway...the democrats wisely chose the highway...



Actually they have more than 17 out of 33, they have 19, as you well know.  And no, they do not have to compromise with bribed union hacks against the will of the people.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13984524 - 02/18/11 12:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




Tell it to Mitch McConnell. Unfuckingbelievable. Were you born without shame, or did you lose it?




What are you babbling about?  These Dem senators are abdicating the job they were hired to do, just like the teachers who are falsely and fraudulently calling in sick.  They should be fired.

Just for your edification democracy is doing what the people elected you to do within the structure of the laws the people have determined.  There is a reason why the people of Wisconsin elected Republicans.  It was to do this.
Quote:



Quote:

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.




The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The unions are not the people.  In fact, the public sector unions have been bribing politicians to fuck the people for decades.  The people having spoken through the ballot say FUCK UNION SCUM.  Did you know that if the greedy teachers didn't demand so much money for each of themselves the state could hire more teachers and have more and better educational facilities?  It's true.  The greedy shitfucks don't give two tenths of a shit about the children.  If they did they wouldn't oppose charter schools and school choice.




What are teachers asking for that makes them 'greedy shitfucks'?  Teachers go to college for two to four years, most likely incurring some debt, in order to make not much more than 25,000 their first year.  Average salaries are around 50,000.  Teachers with Ph.D.s or Masters + 10 (maximum coursework without writing a dissertation) might crack 60 or 70, but I'd doubt any hit 80.  And at this point they're piling on administrative responsibilities that push their workweek well over 40/week, nullifying the benefit of summer break.

I've heard of Wisconsin school superintendents making 120-ish and, indeed, that might be too much.  But that's one person per school district.

This is a job that requires both the expense and time of higher education and the patience to deal with a room of 20-30 kids.

Unions can work against the greater good.  I've heard first-hand stories of corrupt teamsters, for example.  But how else are workers to represent their interests?  A single voice has little power.  I see no shame in collective negotiation.



I have a novel idea.  The state posts the wage and benefits and they screen the people who apply for the jobs.  If they don't get enough applicants they raise the offer.  I see zero requirements for collective bargaining, especially when you consider that there are numerous school districts even within a state.  Did you know that private school teachers are typically paid much less but out perform their state employee union brethren.

I don't give a fuck how much it costs to get a degree in education or how hard people think the job is.  It isn't that fucking hard.  And finally I will leave you with this nugget:

For decades now public sector unions have organized members and spent vast sums, yea sometimes against member wishes, to get politicians elected who are favorable to public sector unions.  The problem is that these politicians who are bought and paid for by unions are supposed to be representing the public side of the table against the unions in negotiations.  How the fuck did that happen?  Consider that public sector unions represent maybe 5% of all workers in a state.  But they manage to get 50% of the politicians beholden to them.  This results in a total corruption of the marketplace.  Wisconsin is reversing that trend BY THE WILL OF THE REST OF THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE!  There is no natural right or Constitutional right for public employees to be in a union.  That was something invented by bought legislatures and the people didn't really mind until
1.  The unions got too greedy
2.  The people ran out of money

Why should every other sector of the American economy get hammered while public sector union employees get protected at their expense?  Fuck.  That.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13984590 - 02/18/11 01:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It's true that teachers' unions have significant political swing.  The NEA (National Educators' Association) is one of the U.S.'s top 10 campaign contributors, hanging out somewhere around #5, I think.  Your point about their influence in electing the people with whom they'll negotiate is interesting and well-taken, but I think it's an exaggeration to then claim that they have undue influence as a result. It's not like politicians then consider only their wishes

Why shouldn't educators have collective political say?  Businesses sure do.  There are all sorts of industry-specific lobbies, plus Karl Rove's organizations that accumulate and deploy wealth from those allied with their political interests. What's wrong with workers being able to represent their interests alongside wealthy and influential individuals and business interests?  IMHO, there should be far, far more of this, not less.

What evidence so you have that teachers are greedy?  What do they get that they don't deserve?  Again, I think it's reasonable to ask for a moderate increase in their contributions to pensions and health plans.  I think that it needs to be easier to get rid of bad teachers. Superintendents could be taken down a notch. All this should be on the table.  The right to collectively bargain is something else entirely.

How can you be so certain that teaching is easy? Standing in a room with the little brats might be tolerable, but making their time productive is a little more challenging.  Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, but it doesn't sound like you're speaking from experience.

Edited by Me_Roy (02/18/11 01:05 PM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13985265 - 02/18/11 03:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




what compromise??...if the repugs have 17 votes out of 33 in WI.. then its their way or the the highway...the democrats wisely chose the highway...



Actually they have more than 17 out of 33, they have 19, as you well know.  And no, they do not have to compromise with bribed union hacks against the will of the people.




the repugs have 19 *seats*.. but two of them arent bribed koch bros hacks..leaving a net of 17 votes.. which doesnt make any difference...and if thats really what the ppl of wisconsin want.. then "cheesehead" is an insult to cheese everywhere...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13985440 - 02/18/11 03:55 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
It's true that teachers' unions have significant political swing.  The NEA (National Educators' Association) is one of the U.S.'s top 10 campaign contributors, hanging out somewhere around #5, I think.  Your point about their influence in electing the people with whom they'll negotiate is interesting and well-taken, but I think it's an exaggeration to then claim that they have undue influence as a result. It's not like politicians then consider only their wishes

Why shouldn't educators have collective political say?  Businesses sure do.  There are all sorts of industry-specific lobbies, plus Karl Rove's organizations that accumulate and deploy wealth from those allied with their political interests. What's wrong with workers being able to represent their interests alongside wealthy and influential individuals and business interests?  IMHO, there should be far, far more of this, not less.

What evidence so you have that teachers are greedy?  What do they get that they don't deserve?  Again, I think it's reasonable to ask for a moderate increase in their contributions to pensions and health plans.  I think that it needs to be easier to get rid of bad teachers. Superintendents could be taken down a notch. All this should be on the table.  The right to collectively bargain is something else entirely.

How can you be so certain that teaching is easy? Standing in a room with the little brats might be tolerable, but making their time productive is a little more challenging.  Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, but it doesn't sound like you're speaking from experience.




How do I know it's easy?  Everybody I know who went into teaching was a mediocrity, that's how.  Why do I think they are greedy?  Because all they ever do is talk about giving themselves more money. 

Make no mistake I do not intend to single out teacher unions.  I don't think there should be ANY public sector unions.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13985451 - 02/18/11 03:57 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

How do I know it's easy?  Everybody I know who went into teaching was a mediocrity, that's how.




Awww, that hurts... I would love to be a teacher.  Seriously, that is such a cake job.  Oh....

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13985733 - 02/18/11 05:08 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
What are teachers asking for that makes them 'greedy shitfucks'?  Teachers go to college for two to four years, most likely incurring some debt, in order to make not much more than 25,000 their first year.  Average salaries are around 50,000.  Teachers with Ph.D.s or Masters + 10 (maximum coursework without writing a dissertation) might crack 60 or 70, but I'd doubt any hit 80.  And at this point they're piling on administrative responsibilities that push their workweek well over 40/week, nullifying the benefit of summer break.

I've heard of Wisconsin school superintendents making 120-ish and, indeed, that might be too much.  But that's one person per school district.




I'm in rural Ga, the school principal at the elementary school is pulling
$120k/yr, the average salary is $55k/yr, the lowest pay is bus drivers
that work 4hrs per day and reap full benefits at $15k/yr... all this was
posted online on the BoE website

this is nearly double the average pay in the county

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InvisibleMe_Roy
Stranger
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Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13985875 - 02/18/11 05:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

According to the 2000 U.S. census, average earnings with a  B.A. is $52,200.  Average with a M.A. is $62,300.  Some teachers have M.A.s and Ph.D.s

120 for an elementary principle sounds very steep to me.

4 hrs./day for 15k/yr. and full benefits also sounds like an all-too-sweet deal.

In WI the average teacher's salary is just under 50, average experience is right around 15 years.  I don't think it at all unreasonable for someone to expect 50 thousand/year after going to college and working in their field for 15 years.

Edited by Me_Roy (02/18/11 05:46 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13985887 - 02/18/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You forget the giant bennies.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13985906 - 02/18/11 05:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't forgotten.  Decent pensions and good health insurance. Yep, WI teachers receive both those things, as every person should.

Again, I think it would be fair to have them pay more into each of those benefits.  I still see no reason to take away the collective bargaining rights.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13986233 - 02/18/11 06:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
For decades now public sector unions have organized members and spent vast sums, yea sometimes against member wishes, to get politicians elected who are favorable to public sector unions.  The problem is that these politicians who are bought and paid for by unions are supposed to be representing the public side of the table against the unions in negotiations.  How the fuck did that happen?  Consider that public sector unions represent maybe 5% of all workers in a state.  But they manage to get 50% of the politicians beholden to them.




in right-wing math..14/33 is 50%...the problem is that at least 17 of the remaining 19/33 who are bought and paid for by the koch bros are supposed to be representing the public against the koch bros...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13986308 - 02/18/11 07:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
For decades now public sector unions have organized members and spent vast sums, yea sometimes against member wishes, to get politicians elected who are favorable to public sector unions.  The problem is that these politicians who are bought and paid for by unions are supposed to be representing the public side of the table against the unions in negotiations.  How the fuck did that happen?  Consider that public sector unions represent maybe 5% of all workers in a state.  But they manage to get 50% of the politicians beholden to them.




in right-wing math..14/33 is 50%...the problem is that at least 17 of the remaining 19/33 who are bought and paid for by the koch bros are supposed to be representing the public against the koch bros...



Dunno.  I'll try to figure this out later.  It's either brilliant in a Joycean manner or fullout bull goose Looney in a Keseyian manner


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Invisiblesetb
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13988026 - 02/19/11 12:21 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The people are not with the unions on this. In fact the unions are defying the people and their wishes. The unions are acting like bullies and people see that.

Edited by setb (02/19/11 12:27 AM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13988782 - 02/19/11 05:17 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

In WI the average teacher's salary is just under 50, average experience is right around 15 years.  I don't think it at all unreasonable for someone to expect 50 thousand/year after going to college and working in their field for 15 years.




Don't forget to factor in the two weeks off at Christmas, the week off for spring break, and the three months off for summer.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13989518 - 02/19/11 11:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Do you honestly think that the only time a teacher is doing their kob is when they are in a classroom?  Where I am from, teachers typically get a week of meetings and other administrative type things to do when the students are off.  Not to mention the countless hours that can go into lesson planning.  Obviously, this is not true for all teachers but there is a lot more time/work spent behind the scenes.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: setb]
    #13989601 - 02/19/11 11:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

setb said:
Quote:


The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The people are not with the unions on this. In fact the unions are defying the people and their wishes. The unions are acting like bullies and people see that.





http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/BSW_POLL_PRESS_RELEASE_FEB_17___2011.pdf


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13989831 - 02/19/11 12:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

http://weaskamerica.com/2011/02/18/weirdness-in-wisconsin/

I'm not certain if this is the same poll, and I don't have the time to compare results and see, but this, too, refutes sethb's unsubstantiated claim re: what 'the people' want and the results are much easier to read at a glance.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13990328 - 02/19/11 02:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
I don't think it at all unreasonable for someone to expect 50 thousand/year after going to college and working in their field for 15 years.





I dont think it's unreasonable for someone out of college to make $50k/yr,
what I do find unreasonable is that I'm being held hostage with some of these
tenured teachers making $75k+ and expecting huge pensions and keeping the
benefits all at my expense

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13991947 - 02/19/11 08:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
A couple of months ago, it looked like Wisconsin was on-track for a modest budget surplus.  Scott Walker took office and, among other things, offered corporate tax breaks totaling 100+ million, about the amount of current projected budget deficit.  Of course, teachers' benefits and corporate taxes aren't the only two factors in play -- I mean to point out that this deficit is the product of (inherently political) decisions. 




This is just not true.

As a voting Wisconite concerned with the state of the State's budget, I can assure you that the budget deficit for this fiscal year is over $200 million dollars, and was hovering around this area long before Walker came to office.  The tax cuts on business that he's passed so far are so low as to be virtually inconsequential in terms of the budget deficit.

It should also be noted that while the current budget deficit is around the $200 million that I mentioned earlier, this number is expected to rise drastically in the following years as certain Obama-administration funding periods expire.  The next budget is expected to be close to $3 BILLION dollars om the red.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13993181 - 02/19/11 11:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The proposal limits raises to inflation, which means no real dollar increase from year to year.  A new teacher in WI makes an average of 29k plus benefits.  If this law goes into effect, then after 30 years of working the teacher will retire making the real dollar equivalent of 29k a year.  No one will wish to be a teacher in WI if this bill passes.  Just another Republican job killing bill.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13994006 - 02/20/11 02:26 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

grade school teachers are not tenured...

:facepalm:


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #13994207 - 02/20/11 04:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> Do you honestly think that the only time a teacher is doing their kob is when they are in a classroom?

My mother was an special education teacher when I was growing up.  I know what their job is like better than most.  I know she did a lot of work out of the classroom, preparing lessons plans, grading papers, etc.  I also know that she didn't do any (school) work at all over the summer or during Christmas and Spring Break.

> grade school teachers are not tenured...

They don't need tenure if they are in a union.  The union provides much better protection than tenure ever could.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13994752 - 02/20/11 09:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There is zero reason whatsoever for any primary or secondary school teacher to be tenured.  Tenure was enacted to protect college professors from the consequences of unpopular research.  There is no research involved for the union teachers being discussed.  It is improper job protectionism.  Why should they have greater job protection than any other work force?

The entire notion of public employee unions is absurd, as even that fuckhead FDR realized.  When public employees unions comprise such a  huge voting bloc that they can effectively determine the makeup of the management side of labor negotiations they have perverted the entire nature of negotiation.  They are negotiating with hand picked lap dogs to the detriment of less organized voters.  Well now enough people from that less organized but much larger group have said, "ENOUGH!"  Democracy.  There is nothing wrong with the unions holding protests.  What is wrong is the disgraceful behavior of the Dem legislators who have abdicated their responsibility to debate and vote the matters of the people.  Also disgraceful is the teachers who have essentially called a wildcat strike and are lying to get days off by claiming sick.  The paying customers are being harmed by this fraudulent action.  Also participating in this fraud are various "doctors" who have set up booths to sign false sick notes.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13994838 - 02/20/11 10:18 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I always get attacked in here so if you are going to reply to me try to use some tactful language and maybe we can have a normal conversation. I love how everybody against unions acts like teachers have it so good. My mom was a teacher for 15 years and every year got worse and worse and that is with unions. The teachers would get more and more students per classroom, more unpaid furlough days, and more and more papers responsibilities. My mom worked 60+ hours a week and barely made of 40k a year.  She was forced to work summer school there to keep up with cost of living. She quit this year in the middle of the year after more furlough days were announced. I also have two other friends who are teachers who quit recently for the same reasons. I can't even imagine how shitty it will be when they have less rights. They also stopped giving the normal pay raises so pay isn't even keeping up with inflation.

I do agree that Unions can become too powerful, but its silly to ignore the obvious deserved benefits of the union. If you want to look at a bad union look at GM for instance... now look at Honda's union...  not all unions are bad, just out of control ones.. trust me teachers do not have it good and zappa it is not 'easy work'. You are bashing these teachers for taking sick time to protest. If you had any idea how important the few sick days teachers get a year, you would understand how bad it has gotten in public schools, and why teachers are willing to use their sick days to stand up for their rights. I'm not for overly powerful unions, and this is a poweful union, but teachers still have it pretty shitty. I have volunteered at a couple high schools recently and hear the same thing.. No yearly pay raise to keep with inflation as the fed prints more? More furlough days... more students per classroom.. .

Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 10:28 AM)

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995029 - 02/20/11 11:05 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/21/16 01:42 PM)

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995039 - 02/20/11 11:08 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

1.  Sick days are for when you are sick.  This en masse "sick-out" is a wild cat strike.  Consider the effect this has on the parents of the children who have no school. 

2.  Your mother is 100% irrelevant.  I assume she isn't a current Wisconsin teacher.
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=24855

Quote:

Just a little by way of facts on WI teachers; this spreadsheet covers the average salary and average fringe of classroom teachers. Copy, paste and a little autosumming on my own Excel spreadsheet and what we find is that the average Sacrificing.For.The.Public.Good teacher in WI, ditching school to protest holding Walker=Hitler signs, Egyptian flags, and generally behaving badly, is compensated $74,843.55/year.

Not shabby for 9-10 months of work, eh?

The administrative salary spreadsheet presented data a bit differently, but here’s how the numbers crunched: Average pro-rated administrative compensation (salary + fringe) is $107,256.57 for 235.82 days of employment.

Nice gig.





Links can be accessed through the above link.

3.  As of right now the general population is at least 5% less employed right now than they were two years ago.  The general population has thus experienced a loss of income at least 5%.  From what I have read that is a bigger loss than these fucking teachers are being asked to take.

4.  My point about public sector unions as an abomination remains.  When both side of the negotiating table are occupied by union toadies the public is in for a fleecing.  The people of Wisconsin have spoken and they are fucking sick of it.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995053 - 02/20/11 11:12 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Professors are paid decently because education is the backbone of our economy, and teaching at a college level is very difficult.  By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995055 - 02/20/11 11:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
But teacher's performance (and Im talking in general, not about your mom) is abysmal.  We pay more for education than any other country, and yet we under-perform other countries that spend less than us.  Public teachers, by and large, are not good at their job.  If they think they deserve a raise, they need to perform better.  Otherwise, if they are just going to be glorified babysitters, then I think making 40k is more than enough.





There is also that.  For decades we have been told that we need to pay teachers more to attract better quality teachers.  They are more educated than ever.  WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN ANY IMPROVEMENT IN PERFORMANCE AT ALL.  Throwing money at teachers has done nothing to improve student performance, nor has increased credential requirements.  And then there is the issue of the difficulty in getting rid of undoubtedly shit teachers.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995062 - 02/20/11 11:15 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Teachers and professors decently because education is the backbone of our economy. By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.



Did you see what I posted above?  The average WI teacher gets $75K.  NOT community college professors.  If the average for these teachers was $60,000 there wouldn't be a problem.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995071 - 02/20/11 11:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

haha like we have actually thrown teachers money?!.. You are assuming all the teachers in the US are the cause of bad education? It is a piece of the puzzle, but to say it definitively is false.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995076 - 02/20/11 11:18 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.




:rofl:  No way.  Maybe as the dean of your dept. after working there for decades. 

And I mention community college because you need a masters to teach there.  People with masters degrees routinely work for 30k a year.  Not all master's degrees are marketable outside of teaching.  Mine wont be.  But why should someone with a B.S. in education think they deserve more than that?  Somebody from my lab just graduated with their PhD and is starting out at 40k as a professor at a 4 year university.  I dont think that is a bad deal at all.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995090 - 02/20/11 11:22 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...

Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 11:28 AM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995107 - 02/20/11 11:28 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
You are assuming all the teachers in the US are the cause of bad education? It is a piece of the puzzle, but to say it definitively is false.




I believe that is very much the largest piece of the puzzle.  Teachers, and their union, work tirelessly to remove as much accountability from them as they want.  I actually saw a teacher's union spokesman say that they were 'taking up themselves to police themselves'.  ROFL!  Give me a break lady, thats not how it works.  Education is too important for teachers to not be held accountable.  Every year the teachers that show the poorest results should be let go.  Its not nice, but education is too important to coddle to the bad teachers.  And there are so, so many bad teachers.

The college system is hurt by this too.  Nobody gets fired for poor teaching or performance, more money is always cried for and better results are few and far between.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995112 - 02/20/11 11:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...




The times are a changin'.  Its not sustainable for such workers to demand such high wages.  Thats part of the complaint, these teachers get huge pay checks and sit comfortably without accountability.  I, as a prospective upcoming teacher, will have to work for much less than that and will likely never get raises up to that amount.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995139 - 02/20/11 11:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that there should be higher accountability for teacher performance. And I have personally seen teachers fired for poor performance. I happen to have 4 close friends who are teachers so I hear both sides of the story. The bad part of the unions is obviously the lack accountability on teaching these children. But at the same time you can't expect the standards to increase when class size increases, and pay stays the same while inflation goes up, and more furlough days, less planning periods. HOW CAN THAT BE THE FAULT OF THE TEACHERS? Teachers ARE being screwed now and many of them don't like the union either even though it provides them with some protections. They need their union, but they need a union with restrictions. Everybody is screwed in this current situation. Education isn't like the free market, our government spends its money away and then makes it harder on the employees, and it is all politics... it's really sad actually how stupid these kids are going to be. I hope that conservatives can realize that. I consider myself conservative but you really do need protection for public school teachers, if not in the form of pay (even though getting pay cuts every years is devastating), they need protection in class size, and so do the kids. 40 kids to a classroom? no wonder nothing comes out right.

Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 11:43 AM)

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995165 - 02/20/11 11:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...




The times are a changin'.  Its not sustainable for such workers to demand such high wages.  Thats part of the complaint, these teachers get huge pay checks and sit comfortably without accountability.  I, as a prospective upcoming teacher, will have to work for much less than that and will likely never get raises up to that amount.




50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really, and having the responsibility of being a professor at a university...And during the past 3 years many of them haven't received cost of living raises even though the cost of living continues to rise, while classrooms continue to combine. I don't see where these demands are being made. They are demanding to not have their pay cut.  They are saying the state should find a more fiscally conservative way to allocate money rather than cutting teachers pay.

Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 11:52 AM)

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995191 - 02/20/11 11:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Charter schools are free of teacher's unions, and they have higher payed teachers, better test results and better conditions are reported by both the students and the teachers.  Choice is the key, the ability to fire your school/teacher is paramount.  These european and asian nations that are reportedly 'better' than us in education generally have a system where the parent gets a choice.  Its not just, this is your address, this is your teacher, deal with it.  Thats how it is with the US, and it doesnt need to be.  Also, as I mentioned earlier, the money spent on students needs to be more evenly distributed.  I know that means federalizing it, but I cant help but come to the conclusion that this is what should be done.

(A personal anecdote; I went to an above average elementry school.  But there was a notoriously bad 2nd grade teacher.  She was old, mean and parents and kids had been complaining about her for years.  I still remember the day we went to the school to see what teacher we would get for 2nd grade.  We looked on the board, and Oh No!, I got the bad teacher.  My mom was sad, I didnt want her, but thats what the school gave us and my mom never even thought to protest or demand the right to choose a different teacher.  Looking back, I cant help but feel she was dis-empowered to help her son and I know I would now never tolerate that.  The parent should reserve the right to interview the teachers and make that decision.)

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995202 - 02/20/11 11:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...




The times are a changin'.  Its not sustainable for such workers to demand such high wages.  Thats part of the complaint, these teachers get huge pay checks and sit comfortably without accountability.  I, as a prospective upcoming teacher, will have to work for much less than that and will likely never get raises up to that amount.




50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really, and having the responsibility of being a professor at a university... do you really think so? I know people who make much more doing much less important work.



So what?  The market pays what the market pays.  Who are you to decide how much professors teaching marginal students useless subjects are worth?  A lot of people have been sold a big bunch of bullshit that a college degree confers any utility at all.  For most people all it confers is a dubious credential that they wasted 4 years of their lives and great sums of money to attain.  They never should have attended in the first place and should have gone to work learning something useful.  Like plumbing.  As opposed to the endless parade of useless social "science" and art history degree holders.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995205 - 02/20/11 11:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really




I hear that all the time, usually from people who dont have masters degrees.  :tongue:

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995218 - 02/20/11 11:54 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Charter schools are free of teacher's unions, and they have higher payed teachers, better test results and better conditions are reported by both the students and the teachers.  Choice is the key, the ability to fire your school/teacher is paramount.  These european and asian nations that are reportedly 'better' than us in education generally have a system where the parent gets a choice.  Its not just, this is your address, this is your teacher, deal with it.  Thats how it is with the US, and it doesnt need to be.  Also, as I mentioned earlier, the money spent on students needs to be more evenly distributed.  I know that means federalizing it, but I cant help but come to the conclusion that this is what should be done.





I'm not so sure about that.  Private school teachers make much less than public school teachers.  I know they aren't the same as charter schools but still......


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995227 - 02/20/11 11:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I don't have a masters degre
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...




The times are a changin'.  Its not sustainable for such workers to demand such high wages.  Thats part of the complaint, these teachers get huge pay checks and sit comfortably without accountability.  I, as a prospective upcoming teacher, will have to work for much less than that and will likely never get raises up to that amount.




50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really, and having the responsibility of being a professor at a university... do you really think so? I know people who make much more doing much less important work.



So what?  The market pays what the market pays.  Who are you to decide how much professors teaching marginal students useless subjects are worth?  A lot of people have been sold a big bunch of bullshit that a college degree confers any utility at all.  For most people all it confers is a dubious credential that they wasted 4 years of their lives and great sums of money to attain.  They never should have attended in the first place and should have gone to work learning something useful.  Like plumbing.  As opposed to the endless parade of useless social "science" and art history degree holders.




Amid all those social science degrees you might actually find some useful degrees. Some consider education the backbone of our economy. In fact most people unemployed in these hard times don't have a college education. Fuck education, Lets just become plumbers. Fuck the internet and technology too.

Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 12:05 PM)

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995286 - 02/20/11 12:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really




I hear that all the time, usually from people who dont have masters degrees.  :tongue:





I'm just going off statistics.. $62,300 is the average for those with a masters. And by the way I have a masters degree :tongue:

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995338 - 02/20/11 12:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Man, I need to find out where they are getting those statistics.

In any case, I believe those high wage earners are doing so because of their ability.  The master's degree is fairly incidental.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995342 - 02/20/11 12:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995360 - 02/20/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Man, I need to find out where they are getting those statistics.

In any case, I believe those high wage earners are doing so because of their ability.  The master's degree is fairly incidental.




Either way that is the average..and what the market deems to be the price.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995362 - 02/20/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

No, I want to find out where they got them geographically.  :wink:

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995380 - 02/20/11 12:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

By state

http://bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcst.htm

By the way zappa, you'll see that teachers of things like physical education get paid substantially less than other more important areas.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995395 - 02/20/11 12:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

[quote][b][i]Rebirtha said:[/i][/b]


Amid all those social science degrees you might actually find some useful degrees. Some consider education the backbone of our economy. In fact most people unemployed in these hard times don't have a college education. Fuck education, Lets just become plumbers. Fuck the internet and technology too. [/quote]

Yeah, there is some useful education. At no time did I say they were all useless. What I did say was that we have been sold a huge bill of goods that any education is good education, a sound investment and a guarantee of a quality life. It has led to credential inflation. It is all a bunch of crap foisted upon us by the education industry. What is the percentage of Community college students who even graduate?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704448304575196292433734212.html
Less than half. A complete waste of time. Then there are the so called 4 year degree programs:
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/college_bound/2011/02/college_enrollment_up_this_year_especially_at_for-profits.html
[quote]However, even when you allow students six years to get a degree, graduation rates have remained flat. This year's report reflects a 57 percent graduation rate for students at four-year colleges. In the 2008 report, it was 56 percent and the year before 57 percent. Success does vary by the type of school.

Here's the breakdown of the six-year graduation rates for cohorts followed from 2003 until fall 2009:

•Private, nonprofit four-year schools: 65 percent
•Public four-year institutions: 56 percent
•For-profits, four-year sector: 20 percent
•For-profit, two-year degree programs: 60 percent
•Public two-year community colleges: 22 percent[/quote]

6 years and still a shitty rate. Clearly many many of these people have no fucking business taking up classroom space. All they are succeeding in doing is inflating the cost and diminishing the quality of higher education.

Don't even get me started on the grotesque number of newly hatched lawyers who can't find jobs...

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995432 - 02/20/11 12:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:


Amid all those social science degrees you might actually find some useful degrees. Some consider education the backbone of our economy. In fact most people unemployed in these hard times don't have a college education. Fuck education, Lets just become plumbers. Fuck the internet and technology too.




Yeah, there is some useful education.  At no time did I say they were all useless.  What I did say was that we have been sold a huge bill of goods that any education is good education, a sound investment and a guarantee of a quality life.  It has led to credential inflation.  It is all a bunch of crap foisted upon us by the education industry.  What is the percentage of Community college students who even graduate?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704448304575196292433734212.html
Less than half.  A complete waste of time.  Then there are the so called 4 year degree programs:
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/college_bound/2011/02/college_enrollment_up_this_year_especially_at_for-profits.html
Quote:

However, even when you allow students six years to get a degree, graduation rates have remained flat. This year's report reflects a 57 percent graduation rate for students at four-year colleges. In the 2008 report, it was 56 percent and the year before 57 percent. Success does vary by the type of school.

Here's the breakdown of the six-year graduation rates for cohorts followed from 2003 until fall 2009:

•Private, nonprofit four-year schools: 65 percent
•Public four-year institutions: 56 percent
•For-profits, four-year sector: 20 percent
•For-profit, two-year degree programs: 60 percent
•Public two-year community colleges: 22 percent




6 years and still a shitty rate.  Clearly many many of these people have no fucking business taking up classroom space.  All they are succeeding in doing is inflating the cost and diminishing the quality of higher education.

Don't even get me started on the grotesque number of newly hatched lawyers who can't find jobs...


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995454 - 02/20/11 12:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Wouldn't failing students be the best thing for federal government budget? It's not like the US helps many people with the their pell grants. I got a measly 235 a year to support my college education. Many of these failing students are taking out federal student loans and paying them back on interest. It is not like we wasted money on them, they wasted their own money. I think the reasons they don't finish is more important that the fact that they don't finish.  Canada's graduation rate is much higher than the US, and number one in the world. College education is paid for in taxes... There are so many factors, we have to be careful not to make assumptions on cause and effect. I'm not implying they are better off for it, i'm just saying it is not as a clear cut as you are trying to make it seem.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995525 - 02/20/11 12:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Teachers and professors decently because education is the backbone of our economy. By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.



Did you see what I posted above?  The average WI teacher gets $75K.  NOT community college professors.  If the average for these teachers was $60,000 there wouldn't be a problem.




Just to be clear, the figure you cite ($75k/yr. compensation for the average WI teacher) MUST include benefits.  All the statistics I've read put the average rate of pay at under $50k/yr. 

We do need a way of comparing teachers' benefits to those of other professions, but lumping it all together w/o caveat distorts things.

I also find it distressing that the U.S. education system spends so much more than other countries w/o achieving their success rates.  However, I don't think you can assume that all that extra money (or even any of it necessarily) goes into salaries. Where, then, does it go?  Here are a couple of possibilities off the top of my head: 1. textbooks. In Germany students buy their own books, usually the size of a National Geographic magazine, rather than having the district buy enormous tomes that cost way more than any sensible individual would pay for them. 2. bussing. European schools are generally smaller and don't have their own fleets, but are instead integrate into the public transit system. 3. extra curriculars.  Good luck finding a European school with swimming pools and football stadiums.

Again, the above factors are all off the top of my head.  I mean only to question the implication that the high cost of education in the U.S. relative to higher-performing countries is due to teachers' salaries.

Another factor that figures into the misleading figure of $75k/yr. TOTAL COMPENSATION, incl. benefits, which you cite, is the cost of health care in the U.S.  The burden of insuring teachers does not fall upon the education system in Europe, because they have much better and much more efficient national systems than the U.S. does. However, I don't think the answer is to yank teachers' plans.  Were one to do that, all but the most experienced teachers would have no chance of paying for decent insurance.  Having them pay a bit more towards their plans would be a possibility. But that's no reason to bust the union.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995539 - 02/20/11 12:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
Wouldn't failing students be the best thing for federal government budget? It's not like the US helps many people with the their pell grants. I got a measly 235 a year to support my college education. Many of these failing students are taking out federal student loans and paying them back on interest. It is not like we wasted money on them, they wasted their own money. I think the reasons they don't finish is more important that the fact that they don't finish.  Canada's graduation rate is much higher than the US, and number one in the world. College education is paid for in taxes... There are so many factors, we have to be careful not to make assumptions on cause and effect. I'm not implying they are better off for it, i'm just saying it is not as a clear cut as you are trying to make it seem.



Only wasting their own money?  Did you actually look at the numbers?  The graduate rates for private institutions are at the top.  The graduate rates for public institutions are in the toilet.  PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS!  Mostly paid for by the taxpayers.  A huge waste of resources, of the taxpayer funds, of teacher's time, and of the student's lives.  Instead of pursuing worthless evasions of life's responsibilities we should completely end any subsidy for marginal degree candidates.  Somebody who graduates high school with a C average has no business going to college.  Not on my dime, anyway.

Education loans are net losers for the government taxpayer
http://febp.newamerica.net/background-analysis/federal-student-loan-cost-estimates
Final sentence:
Quote:

Others have argued that the cost differences should prompt policy makers to reduce costs in the more expensive program, or eliminate the higher cost program altogether.



Ya think?  They did exactly the opposite by abolishing FFEL in the Health deform bill.

I don't give two shits about what happens in Canada.  It has no relevance


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13995580 - 02/20/11 01:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Teachers and professors decently because education is the backbone of our economy. By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.



Did you see what I posted above?  The average WI teacher gets $75K.  NOT community college professors.  If the average for these teachers was $60,000 there wouldn't be a problem.




Just to be clear, the figure you cite ($75k/yr. compensation for the average WI teacher) MUST include benefits.  All the statistics I've read put the average rate of pay at under $50k/yr.




Yes, of course it does.  Do you think that isn't compensation?  Because if I didn't have to buy my own health insurance and fund my own retirement account I would sure count getting those things as compensation.:flowstone:
Quote:



We do need a way of comparing teachers' benefits to those of other professions, but lumping it all together w/o caveat distorts things.




No, actually not counting it distorts things.  Compensation is compensation. 
Quote:



I also find it distressing that the U.S. education system spends so much more than other countries w/o achieving their success rates.  However, I don't think you can assume that all that extra money (or even any of it necessarily) goes into salaries. Where, then, does it go?  Here are a couple of possibilities off the top of my head: 1. textbooks. In Germany students buy their own books, usually the size of a National Geographic magazine, rather than having the district buy enormous tomes that cost way more than any sensible individual would pay for them. 2. bussing. European schools are generally smaller and don't have their own fleets, but are instead integrate into the public transit system. 3. extra curriculars.  Good luck finding a European school with swimming pools and football stadiums.

Again, the above factors are all off the top of my head.  I mean only to question the implication that the high cost of education in the U.S. relative to higher-performing countries is due to teachers' salaries.

Another factor that figures into the misleading figure of $75k/yr. TOTAL COMPENSATION, incl. benefits, which you cite, is the cost of health care in the U.S.  The burden of insuring teachers does not fall upon the education system in Europe, because they have much better and much more efficient national systems than the U.S. does. However, I don't think the answer is to yank teachers' plans.  Were one to do that, all but the most experienced teachers would have no chance of paying for decent insurance.  Having them pay a bit more towards their plans would be a possibility. But that's no reason to bust the union.




I don't give a fuck about Europe.  I have no idea what Europe pays teachers nor do I have any desire to devolve into the socialist but recovering idiocy that is most of Europe.  At no point have I ever made any comparison to Europe.  Because it is irrelevant and impossible.

You mention that having them contribute more to their plans as reasonable.  That is in fact what this bill does
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/02/028414.php
   
Quote:

Here's what Governor Walker's Budget Repair Bill that they're so angry about actually does:

    - Ask government workers to pay half the cost of their pensions - still less than private employees pay for their pensions

    - Ask government workers to pay 12% of their own health insurance premiums - the national average for the private sector is over 20%

    - End collective bargaining for government unions for pensions and benefits. Allow bargaining only for raises that are less than inflation.

    - End forced union dues, collected by the state. Union dues would become voluntary.

    - Union members get to vote yearly on whether to keep their union.

Are those significant reforms? Absolutely. Hence the desperation on the Left to frustrate them. But in talking about what is at stake, it is helpful to be concrete about what the legislation would actually do.





It doesn't even "bust" the union.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995835 - 02/20/11 02:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Teachers and professors decently because education is the backbone of our economy. By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.



Did you see what I posted above?  The average WI teacher gets $75K.  NOT community college professors.  If the average for these teachers was $60,000 there wouldn't be a problem.




Just to be clear, the figure you cite ($75k/yr. compensation for the average WI teacher) MUST include benefits.  All the statistics I've read put the average rate of pay at under $50k/yr.




Yes, of course it does.  Do you think that isn't compensation?  Because if I didn't have to buy my own health insurance and fund my own retirement account I would sure count getting those things as compensation.:flowstone:
Quote:



We do need a way of comparing teachers' benefits to those of other professions, but lumping it all together w/o caveat distorts things.




No, actually not counting it distorts things.  Compensation is compensation. 
Quote:



I also find it distressing that the U.S. education system spends so much more than other countries w/o achieving their success rates.  However, I don't think you can assume that all that extra money (or even any of it necessarily) goes into salaries. Where, then, does it go?  Here are a couple of possibilities off the top of my head: 1. textbooks. In Germany students buy their own books, usually the size of a National Geographic magazine, rather than having the district buy enormous tomes that cost way more than any sensible individual would pay for them. 2. bussing. European schools are generally smaller and don't have their own fleets, but are instead integrate into the public transit system. 3. extra curriculars.  Good luck finding a European school with swimming pools and football stadiums.

Again, the above factors are all off the top of my head.  I mean only to question the implication that the high cost of education in the U.S. relative to higher-performing countries is due to teachers' salaries.

Another factor that figures into the misleading figure of $75k/yr. TOTAL COMPENSATION, incl. benefits, which you cite, is the cost of health care in the U.S.  The burden of insuring teachers does not fall upon the education system in Europe, because they have much better and much more efficient national systems than the U.S. does. However, I don't think the answer is to yank teachers' plans.  Were one to do that, all but the most experienced teachers would have no chance of paying for decent insurance.  Having them pay a bit more towards their plans would be a possibility. But that's no reason to bust the union.




I don't give a fuck about Europe.  I have no idea what Europe pays teachers nor do I have any desire to devolve into the socialist but recovering idiocy that is most of Europe.  At no point have I ever made any comparison to Europe.  Because it is irrelevant and impossible.

You mention that having them contribute more to their plans as reasonable.  That is in fact what this bill does
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/02/028414.php
   
Quote:

Here's what Governor Walker's Budget Repair Bill that they're so angry about actually does:

    - Ask government workers to pay half the cost of their pensions - still less than private employees pay for their pensions

    - Ask government workers to pay 12% of their own health insurance premiums - the national average for the private sector is over 20%

    - End collective bargaining for government unions for pensions and benefits. Allow bargaining only for raises that are less than inflation.

    - End forced union dues, collected by the state. Union dues would become voluntary.

    - Union members get to vote yearly on whether to keep their union.

Are those significant reforms? Absolutely. Hence the desperation on the Left to frustrate them. But in talking about what is at stake, it is helpful to be concrete about what the legislation would actually do.





It doesn't even "bust" the union.




Ending collecting bargaining, forcing the union to go through the motions of re-forming itself every year, then offering the option to not paying dues to the severely weakened, useless institution that results is tantamount to busting it.

Not allowing for international comparison is more than a little dishonest.  It hamstrings the debate to a narrow bandwidth of solutions, changing the question to 'how can we improve the situation without structural change' or 'how can we cut costs through the one option now on the table, i.e. busting the unions'.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995849 - 02/20/11 02:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> It doesn't even "bust" the union.

... but it gives the union members the right to bust the union and we can't have that, now can we.  This is a democracy after all.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13995960 - 02/20/11 02:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:


Ending collecting bargaining, forcing the union to go through the motions of re-forming itself every year, then offering the option to not paying dues to the severely weakened, useless institution that results is tantamount to busting it.




No, it is not tantamount to busting the union.  For one thing, it does not completely end collective bargaining.  For another thing why shouldn't the members of the union be allowed to vote to get rid of it?  Why should teachers be forced to join a union?  Finally, since unions are in fact adversarial to the government why should the government collect their fucking dues?  Fuck that. 
Quote:



Not allowing for international comparison is more than a little dishonest.  It hamstrings the debate to a narrow bandwidth of solutions, changing the question to 'how can we improve the situation without structural change' or 'how can we cut costs through the one option now on the table, i.e. busting the unions'.




Narrow bandwidth?  The only debate should be regarding the teachers in WI since they are the only people affected.  Further I don't see how it is even possible to compare them to Europe.  Did you post teacher salaries for each of the countries in Europe along with a comparison of government subsidies and benefits generally provided to all workers in Europe?  No, you did not.

Just to make myself clear I believe, as did FDR, that public employee unions are a perversion and should be busted.  But that's just from somebody who pays the fucking bill.  And is sick of it.  Sick of getting the same shit performance for more and more money every fucking year.  The teachers' union stands for exactly one thing.  Getting more money for teachers and never holding any of them accountable.  That's it.  They are not advocates for the children, as they so falsely claim.  If they gave a shit about the children they'd be in class.  Teaching, not whining that they are a protected class with special privileges not enjoyed by the general population.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13995966 - 02/20/11 02:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> It doesn't even "bust" the union.

... but it gives the union members the right to bust the union and we can't have that, now can we.  This is a democracy after all.



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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13996128 - 02/20/11 03:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I have a question for Zappa or anyone else seeming to imply that teachers deserve most of the blame for the failing of this countries students.

Where are the fucking parents in all of this?

Teachers get a handful of hours every week to work with their students, and pretty much entirely with no one on one time.  Shouldn't the parents take the brunt of the responsibility? Considering it is their own kid and they have all the time in the world to raise and teach them.

See, the problem in this country isn't an educational one, it is a cultural one.  If parents were better equipped with the knowledge and skills to bring up a half way decent child then kids would be much more prepared to succeed in school.

That being said, I think the school system could be revamped and changed entirely.  We at least need some more experimentation on different pedagogical techniques.  Children need to want to learn and sadly most kids don't these days.  If we could somehow get rid of all the shit that makes kids feel so uncomfortable in school (bullying, racism, authority, etc) as well as develop a habit of students helping other students and only have as small of classes as possible, kids would probably view education in a whole new light.

Edited by snitchelpowerz37 (02/20/11 03:16 PM)

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #13996160 - 02/20/11 03:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

theres also a pervasive pattern of judging all the union members by the actions of a small minority...

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13996196 - 02/20/11 03:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The average WI teacher gets 75K. (including benefits)



Did you know the bulk of the Wisconsin population is in the southeastern part of the state just north of the Chicago area?  The cost of living is high in that part of the country.  I lived there the 1st 36 years of my life.

I think the students themselves and their parents should take MOST of the blame for their sucky performance.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #13996211 - 02/20/11 03:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> I have a question for Zappa or anyone else seeming to imply that teachers deserve most of the blame for the failing of this countries students.

I don't think any of us have been claiming that the teachers are to blame for the failing education system.  Unions that protect worthless teachers for repercussions are certainly part of the problem.  Parents, or lack thereof, in my opinion, are the biggest problem.  Too many parents have decided that three cars and a TV in every room are more important than raising their children.  They teach their children that they (the kids) are special and deserve anything they want without having to work for it.  They (the parents) believe that their children are somehow special and deserve special treatment, regardless of the costs to others.

> theres also a pervasive pattern of judging all the union members by the actions of a small minority...

That is your twisted interpretation of anybody that is anti-union.  I have no problem at all with union members.  I have a huge problem with unions in general.  The unions, not the union members, are to blame for various problems.  The unions are greedy, deceitful entities that survive by creating strife between management and labor.  They were necessary at one time, before labor laws, but now are nothing more than racketeering extortionists protected by law.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #13996306 - 02/20/11 03:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

steezemachinee said:
I have a question for Zappa or anyone else seeming to imply that teachers deserve most of the blame for the failing of this countries students.

Where are the fucking parents in all of this?

Teachers get a handful of hours every week to work with their students, and pretty much entirely with no one on one time.  Shouldn't the parents take the brunt of the responsibility considering it is their own kid and they have all the time in the world to raise and teach them.

See, the problem in this country isn't an educational one, it is a cultural one.  If parents were better equipped with the knowledge and skills to bring up a half way decent child then kids would be much more prepared to succeed in school.

That being said, I think the school system could be revamped and changed entirely.  We at least need some more experimentation on different pedagogical techniques.  Children need to want to learn and sadly most kids don't these days.  If we could somehow get rid of all the shit that makes kids feel so uncomfortable in school (bullying, racism, authority, etc) as well as develop a habit of students helping other students and only have as small of classes as possible, kids would probably view education in a whole new light.



I do not blame the individual teachers so much as I blame the unions.  Most teachers should be and probably are up in arms that bad teachers are protected as much as they are.

And the point is not that they are entirely responsible for the state of education today.  They aren't.  The point is that we were told for decades that teachers were underpaid and if we gave them more money and better benefits we would get a better product from more motivated and talented teachers.  That is 100% unequivocally and proven false.  Now as a matter of course shouldn't we be trying to negotiate for the vast majority of taxpayers a lower cost for the same product?  We didn't get more by paying more so we should be going back to paying less.  Anything else is stupid.  Isn't that what politicians are supposed to do?  Making sure we aren't throwing taxpayer dollars down a fucking rathole.  Just what justifies paying union leaders who don't even teach?

As far as the culture issue goes I think that the kind of culture as represented by unionism, specifically their efforts to avoid any personal accountability by union members, is part and parcel of the pernicious effect of a swelling "it's not my responsibility" culture in the US.  But let me make myself completely clear.  This is not universal.  When my parents found out there was a problem in school their immediate reaction was "What did Kevin do?"  Now the default position is for the parents to ask, "Why are you persecuting my wonderful thug?"  I'll leave you with a song



English band, by the way.


--------------------

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13999631 - 02/21/11 04:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If anyone taking part in these strikes is reading this check this out.
http://tarpley.net/2011/02/20/wisconsin-union-busting-drive/
And this.

Tarpley is in his element with this sort of thing. If we don't resist the attacks on unions then severe "austerity" will be coming our way. Sending us into an economic death spiral and David Rockefeller will get his dream of turning western nations into third world hell holes.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #13999824 - 02/21/11 07:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The unions have been ripping off the taxpayer and everybody else not in a union for decades.  Fuck them.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13999853 - 02/21/11 07:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)



Great video someone shared with me.  It helps to show why people are upset as they are.  I am not very invested in political matters, but it does seem like this bill popped out of no where a week ago and the methods of getting it through have been less  than ethical.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14000181 - 02/21/11 09:41 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The unions have been ripping off the taxpayer and everybody else not in a union for decades.  Fuck them.





Every union I've ever been in has been a stab in the back imo.  Just as corrupt and self serving as the management we were having issues with.  In fact I was responsible for the defeat of a union that I was involved with trying to bring in to a workplace I was at. Once I discovered (by accident) how corrupt  it was I reversed positions just in time to convince employees not to vote them in.  I rock.:satansmoking:

The great part was that by almost getting the union the general manager resigned and the new boss (who was a good one) gave us the union/employee contract as our new employee manual. So we got all our demands and no dues. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #14000627 - 02/21/11 11:08 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

steezemachinee said:


Great video someone shared with me.  It helps to show why people are upset as they are.  I am not very invested in political matters, but it does seem like this bill popped out of no where a week ago and the methods of getting it through have been less  than ethical.



Quote:

Video has been removed by the user.




I'm sure it was utterly brilliant.
 

There is nothing unethical, improper or surprising about this bill.  What is unethical, though not surprising, is the behavior of the teachers going on an illegal and fraudulent strike, doctors writing fake sick notes, and the cowardly Democrat legislators who ran out on their jobs.  The People of Wisconsin had an election last November and they flipped the state Republican expressly for the purpose of doing stuff like this.  The people spoke and the fucking losers need to accept it.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14000656 - 02/21/11 11:12 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

So we got all our demands and no dues. :lol:




Guess what my response to employee demands was.  Come on, guess.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14000857 - 02/21/11 11:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The unions have been ripping off the taxpayer and everybody else not in a union for decades.  Fuck them.





Every union I've ever been in has been a stab in the back imo.  Just as corrupt and self serving as the management we were having issues with.  In fact I was responsible for the defeat of a union that I was involved with trying to bring in to a workplace I was at. Once I discovered (by accident) how corrupt  it was I reversed positions just in time to convince employees not to vote them in.  I rock.:satansmoking:

The great part was that by almost getting the union the general manager resigned and the new boss (who was a good one) gave us the union/employee contract as our new employee manual. So we got all our demands and no dues. :lol:



So on one hand people are arguing that teachers get paid too much, on the other hand you are saying unions are corrupt and pointless? Don't you think there might be some kind of connection between good pay and benefits with high union membership, willingness to strike ect? Would you like everyone who's not self employed to earn peanuts, get no benefits, work 14 hours a day six days a week? Because that's the situation we'd be in without the labor movement. Remember the mills of the Victorian era where people were worked to death to line the pockets of the industrialists? That's where people like Walker are trying to send us back to.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda] * 1
    #14000918 - 02/21/11 12:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Completely false dichotomy.  And a lie as well.  Unions have been declining in the private sector for decades and people aren't "earn(ing) peanuts, get(ting) no benefits, work(ing) 14 hours a day six days a week".  Your entire premise is a lie.  Go back the babbling Trotskyite echo chamber you came from.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14001001 - 02/21/11 12:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Completely false dichotomy.  And a lie as well.  Unions have been declining in the private sector for decades and people aren't "earn(ing) peanuts, get(ting) no benefits, work(ing) 14 hours a day six days a week".  Your entire premise is a lie.  Go back the babbling Trotskyite echo chamber you came from.



Alright calm down a bit. Real wages have been declining in America for decades, they reached their peak around the time that the labor movement was strongest, the 60's.
http://www.kyklosproductions.com/articles/wages.html
What is this "false dichotomy" your accusing me of? Are you saying employers felt a pang of guilt for all those years treating workers like dirt and decided to improve their conditions? Beacause that obviously didn't happen, what happened was workers realised they could band together to demand fair treatment and refuse to work if they got a raw deal. We now take the rights that they fought to obtain for granted, people like you do anyway.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14001217 - 02/21/11 12:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The false dichotomy is that the only alternative to unionization is "earn(ing) peanuts, get(ting) no benefits, work(ing) 14 hours a day six days a week".  It is 100% untrue.

All what years treating employees like dirt?  Not in my lifetime and I suspect that's twice as long as yours at least.  You still fighting the Wobblies battles from the 1930s?  Get out of your Trotskyite echo chamber.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14001430 - 02/21/11 01:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The labor movement dates back to the industrial revolution when workers WERE treated like dirt. The movement fought for the labor rights we have today, industrialists didn't give up their right to treat people like shit without a fight. There haven't been any decent unions in Britian while I've been alive, I don't know how it is in the US, as pointed out earlier in the thread these days union leader are corrupt sacks of dog shit willing to fritter away at their members benefits in order to get invited to fancy parties thrown by rich cunts.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14001467 - 02/21/11 01:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The industrial revolution is long over here in the states.  There is (by and large) no place for unions anymore, they are monopolies on labor that have all the trappings and conflicts of interest that corporate monopolies have.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #14001547 - 02/21/11 01:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If you allow Obama and his insane Tea Party mates to bust the unions then they'll start slashing away at public sector AND private sector pay. This will send the economy into a death spiral, this is obvious to anyone who knows about economics, the private sector doesn't "fill the gaps of the public sector", the private sector RELIES on the public sector, those public sector workers spend their wages in the private sector, if you build a motorway you provide demand for materials in the private sector. If you start slashing away at budgets you'll end up like California, fucked. Arnie cut the budget every year and as a result the deficit rose every year.

Instead of slashing public sector jobs, tax the banks, cut military spending, abolish the CIA, and cut the salaries of useless government bureaucrats who are on over over $200,000 a year.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14001563 - 02/21/11 01:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:

So we got all our demands and no dues. :lol:




Guess what my response to employee demands was.  Come on, guess.





Doesn't matter to me. We got fair treatment which is what we were after. The new management agreed that there was management corruption and unfair treatment that went against their own stated intent.  The old manager left, her financial manager was arrested for fraud and imprisioned . All good shit.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinesnitchelpowerz37
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14001589 - 02/21/11 01:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

steezemachinee said:


Great video someone shared with me.  It helps to show why people are upset as they are.  I am not very invested in political matters, but it does seem like this bill popped out of no where a week ago and the methods of getting it through have been less  than ethical.



Quote:

Video has been removed by the user.




I'm sure it was utterly brilliant.
 

There is nothing unethical, improper or surprising about this bill.  What is unethical, though not surprising, is the behavior of the teachers going on an illegal and fraudulent strike, doctors writing fake sick notes, and the cowardly Democrat legislators who ran out on their jobs.  The People of Wisconsin had an election last November and they flipped the state Republican expressly for the purpose of doing stuff like this.  The people spoke and the fucking losers need to accept it.






here it is again if you are still interested.  it reached over 170,000 views before being taken down shortly after i posted it for some reason.


Edited by snitchelpowerz37 (02/21/11 01:58 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14001935 - 02/21/11 02:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Batty Koda said:
If you allow Obama and his insane Tea Party mates to bust the unions then they'll start slashing away at public sector AND private sector pay. This will send the economy into a death spiral, this is obvious to anyone who knows about economics, the private sector doesn't "fill the gaps of the public sector", the private sector RELIES on the public sector, those public sector workers spend their wages in the private sector, if you build a motorway you provide demand for materials in the private sector. If you start slashing away at budgets you'll end up like California, fucked. Arnie cut the budget every year and as a result the deficit rose every year.

Instead of slashing public sector jobs, tax the banks, cut military spending, abolish the CIA, and cut the salaries of useless government bureaucrats who are on over over $200,000 a year.



There is so much bullshit here it must be dealt with piecemeal

1.  "If you allow Obama and his insane Tea Party mates"

Obama and his Tea Party mates?  You have no idea what you're talking about.  And defining a huge percentage of the population as insane is plain ignorant

2.  "they'll start slashing away at public sector AND private sector pay."

The only pay they can "slash" away it is government employee pay.  Private pay is none of the government's business.  Factor in that public sector wages have risen much more than the wages of the people who pay them and there is ample justification to hammer the public sector pay rates.  Ample.

3.  "This will send the economy into a death spiral," 

The single greatest cause of any economic "death spiral" is grotesque pension and health care benefits provided by the government either to employees of the government or thorough soc sec and medicare/medicaid. 

4.  "the private sector RELIES on the public sector,"  You got that exactly backwards.  The private sector can do without the public sector far better than the public sector can do without the private sector. 

5.  "those public sector workers spend their wages in the private sector," 

Wages paid to them by the private sector.

6.  "if you build a motorway you provide demand for materials in the private sector"

Increase confiscation of private resources to fund public jobs so that a small portion will drift back to the private sector?  I got a better idea.  Leave the money in the private sector.  By the way, public employees do not build roads.  Sensible public spending on projects that benefit the whole are worthwhile.  Useless make work jobs just to spend money we don't have is stupid and harmful.

7.  "If you start slashing away at budgets you'll end up like California, fucked."

California is well and truly fucked but it isn't because they cut spending.  California is fucked because of pension obligations, health care obligations, generous welfare and huge numbers of illegal immigrants utilizing services without paying taxes.  Budget cuts?  Nope.

8.  "Arnie cut the budget every year and as a result the deficit rose every year."

Aside from the fact that Arnie was not a dictator it is simply a lie to say thatspending in California was cut.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=2000_2010&view=1&expand=&units=b&fy=fy10&chart=F0-total&bar=1&stack=1&size=m&title=&state=CA&color=c&local=s
It rose every single year from 2000 through 2009/10 projections with an increase over that period of almost double.  Double.

9.  "Instead of slashing public sector jobs, tax the banks, cut military spending, abolish the CIA, and cut the salaries of useless government bureaucrats who are on over over $200,000 a year."

Isn't the military the public sector?  And why only cut useless bureaucrats making more than $200K?  Why not cut all the useless bureaucrats?  Abolishing the CIA is a stunningly ignorant idea and the banks are already taxed heavily, as are the shareholders of the banks and pretty much anybody who makes any kind of real money in this country.  Almost half of the population pays zero in income tax as it is and a very small portion pay for almost everything.

You're just another one looking for a handout.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14001951 - 02/21/11 02:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:

So we got all our demands and no dues. :lol:




Guess what my response to employee demands was.  Come on, guess.





Doesn't matter to me. We got fair treatment which is what we were after. The new management agreed that there was management corruption and unfair treatment that went against their own stated intent.  The old manager left, her financial manager was arrested for fraud and imprisioned . All good shit.



Didn't even try, huh?  I'll answer anyway.  My response was nothing.  Nobody ever made any demands.  Ever.  They made requests, which I sometimes granted and sometimes denied, but nobody ever made any fucking demands.


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InvisibleBatty Koda
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14002789 - 02/21/11 05:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Batty Koda said:
If you allow Obama and his insane Tea Party mates to bust the unions then they'll start slashing away at public sector AND private sector pay. This will send the economy into a death spiral, this is obvious to anyone who knows about economics, the private sector doesn't "fill the gaps of the public sector", the private sector RELIES on the public sector, those public sector workers spend their wages in the private sector, if you build a motorway you provide demand for materials in the private sector. If you start slashing away at budgets you'll end up like California, fucked. Arnie cut the budget every year and as a result the deficit rose every year.

Instead of slashing public sector jobs, tax the banks, cut military spending, abolish the CIA, and cut the salaries of useless government bureaucrats who are on over over $200,000 a year.



There is so much bullshit here it must be dealt with piecemeal

1.  "If you allow Obama and his insane Tea Party mates"

Obama and his Tea Party mates?  You have no idea what you're talking about.  And defining a huge percentage of the population as insane is plain ignorant

2.  "they'll start slashing away at public sector AND private sector pay."

The only pay they can "slash" away it is government employee pay.  Private pay is none of the government's business.  Factor in that public sector wages have risen much more than the wages of the people who pay them and there is ample justification to hammer the public sector pay rates.  Ample.

3.  "This will send the economy into a death spiral," 

The single greatest cause of any economic "death spiral" is grotesque pension and health care benefits provided by the government either to employees of the government or thorough soc sec and medicare/medicaid. 

4.  "the private sector RELIES on the public sector,"  You got that exactly backwards.  The private sector can do without the public sector far better than the public sector can do without the private sector. 

5.  "those public sector workers spend their wages in the private sector," 

Wages paid to them by the private sector.

6.  "if you build a motorway you provide demand for materials in the private sector"

Increase confiscation of private resources to fund public jobs so that a small portion will drift back to the private sector?  I got a better idea.  Leave the money in the private sector.  By the way, public employees do not build roads.  Sensible public spending on projects that benefit the whole are worthwhile.  Useless make work jobs just to spend money we don't have is stupid and harmful.

7.  "If you start slashing away at budgets you'll end up like California, fucked."

California is well and truly fucked but it isn't because they cut spending.  California is fucked because of pension obligations, health care obligations, generous welfare and huge numbers of illegal immigrants utilizing services without paying taxes.  Budget cuts?  Nope.

8.  "Arnie cut the budget every year and as a result the deficit rose every year."

Aside from the fact that Arnie was not a dictator it is simply a lie to say thatspending in California was cut.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=2000_2010&view=1&expand=&units=b&fy=fy10&chart=F0-total&bar=1&stack=1&size=m&title=&state=CA&color=c&local=s
It rose every single year from 2000 through 2009/10 projections with an increase over that period of almost double.  Double.

9.  "Instead of slashing public sector jobs, tax the banks, cut military spending, abolish the CIA, and cut the salaries of useless government bureaucrats who are on over over $200,000 a year."

Isn't the military the public sector?  And why only cut useless bureaucrats making more than $200K?  Why not cut all the useless bureaucrats?  Abolishing the CIA is a stunningly ignorant idea and the banks are already taxed heavily, as are the shareholders of the banks and pretty much anybody who makes any kind of real money in this country.  Almost half of the population pays zero in income tax as it is and a very small portion pay for almost everything.

You're just another one looking for a handout.



1. Strange bedfellows, they're both union-busters, that's why obama won't support the strikes, duh. The Tea Party minions are idiots, the Tea Party politicians are insane.
2. They want to break ALL unions. It's irrelevant whether the private sector is getting screwed, maybe they should form some unions?
3. No it's not, the banks caused the crisis, the citizens bailed them out, now Obama is trying to cut the public sector budget to pay for the bankers' fraud. But this will only make things worse.
4. they both rely on each other.
5.Yeah, that's called economics.
6.Nearly all that money ends up back in the private sector and we get infrastructure and jobs out of it.. The only extra cost is the raw materials used in construction.
7. The housing market crash and general depressed economy ruined California, the budget cuts made it worse.
8. I'll accept that total spending increased from '08 to '09 and '09 to '10. but you have to factor in inflation and interest on debts ect. The public sector faced cuts, this is common knowledge.
9. Military spending goes mainly to the Military-Industrial-Complex. You misinterpreted what I said about bureaucrats, I meant get rid of the useless bureaucrats, who generally earn over $200,000, not specifically those who earn over $200,000. What does the CIA do for the American people apart from blow up skyscrapers, smuggle drugs and blackmail politicians? Nothing. The banks are NOT taxed heavily, they pay themselves $150,000,000,000 a year in bonuses, taxpayers money of course. I don't hear you complaining about the $10+ trillion of Private sector money GIVEN to the banks.

I don't live in America so no I'm not after a handout.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14002820 - 02/21/11 05:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:

So we got all our demands and no dues. :lol:




Guess what my response to employee demands was.  Come on, guess.





Doesn't matter to me. We got fair treatment which is what we were after. The new management agreed that there was management corruption and unfair treatment that went against their own stated intent.  The old manager left, her financial manager was arrested for fraud and imprisioned . All good shit.



Didn't even try, huh?  I'll answer anyway.  My response was nothing.  Nobody ever made any demands.  Ever.  They made requests, which I sometimes granted and sometimes denied, but nobody ever made any fucking demands.




Actually you are quite correct and I am in error.  They were requests.  They acted appropriately (IMO) even though we pushed the issue.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14002881 - 02/21/11 05:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Batty Koda said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Batty Koda said:
If you allow Obama and his insane Tea Party mates to bust the unions then they'll start slashing away at public sector AND private sector pay. This will send the economy into a death spiral, this is obvious to anyone who knows about economics, the private sector doesn't "fill the gaps of the public sector", the private sector RELIES on the public sector, those public sector workers spend their wages in the private sector, if you build a motorway you provide demand for materials in the private sector. If you start slashing away at budgets you'll end up like California, fucked. Arnie cut the budget every year and as a result the deficit rose every year.

Instead of slashing public sector jobs, tax the banks, cut military spending, abolish the CIA, and cut the salaries of useless government bureaucrats who are on over over $200,000 a year.



There is so much bullshit here it must be dealt with piecemeal

1.  "If you allow Obama and his insane Tea Party mates"

Obama and his Tea Party mates?  You have no idea what you're talking about.  And defining a huge percentage of the population as insane is plain ignorant

2.  "they'll start slashing away at public sector AND private sector pay."

The only pay they can "slash" away it is government employee pay.  Private pay is none of the government's business.  Factor in that public sector wages have risen much more than the wages of the people who pay them and there is ample justification to hammer the public sector pay rates.  Ample.

3.  "This will send the economy into a death spiral," 

The single greatest cause of any economic "death spiral" is grotesque pension and health care benefits provided by the government either to employees of the government or thorough soc sec and medicare/medicaid. 

4.  "the private sector RELIES on the public sector,"  You got that exactly backwards.  The private sector can do without the public sector far better than the public sector can do without the private sector. 

5.  "those public sector workers spend their wages in the private sector," 

Wages paid to them by the private sector.

6.  "if you build a motorway you provide demand for materials in the private sector"

Increase confiscation of private resources to fund public jobs so that a small portion will drift back to the private sector?  I got a better idea.  Leave the money in the private sector.  By the way, public employees do not build roads.  Sensible public spending on projects that benefit the whole are worthwhile.  Useless make work jobs just to spend money we don't have is stupid and harmful.

7.  "If you start slashing away at budgets you'll end up like California, fucked."

California is well and truly fucked but it isn't because they cut spending.  California is fucked because of pension obligations, health care obligations, generous welfare and huge numbers of illegal immigrants utilizing services without paying taxes.  Budget cuts?  Nope.

8.  "Arnie cut the budget every year and as a result the deficit rose every year."

Aside from the fact that Arnie was not a dictator it is simply a lie to say thatspending in California was cut.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/downchart_gs.php?year=2000_2010&view=1&expand=&units=b&fy=fy10&chart=F0-total&bar=1&stack=1&size=m&title=&state=CA&color=c&local=s
It rose every single year from 2000 through 2009/10 projections with an increase over that period of almost double.  Double.

9.  "Instead of slashing public sector jobs, tax the banks, cut military spending, abolish the CIA, and cut the salaries of useless government bureaucrats who are on over over $200,000 a year."

Isn't the military the public sector?  And why only cut useless bureaucrats making more than $200K?  Why not cut all the useless bureaucrats?  Abolishing the CIA is a stunningly ignorant idea and the banks are already taxed heavily, as are the shareholders of the banks and pretty much anybody who makes any kind of real money in this country.  Almost half of the population pays zero in income tax as it is and a very small portion pay for almost everything.

You're just another one looking for a handout.



1. Strange bedfellows, they're both union-busters, that's why obama won't support the strikes, duh. The Tea Party minions are idiots, the Tea Party politicians are insane.
2. They want to break ALL unions. It's irrelevant whether the private sector is getting screwed, maybe they should form some unions?
3. No it's not, the banks caused the crisis, the citizens bailed them out, now Obama is trying to cut the public sector budget to pay for the bankers' fraud. But this will only make things worse.
4. they both rely on each other.
5.Yeah, that's called economics.
6.Nearly all that money ends up back in the private sector and we get infrastructure and jobs out of it.. The only extra cost is the raw materials used in construction.
7. The housing market crash and general depressed economy ruined California, the budget cuts made it worse.
8. I'll accept that total spending increased from '08 to '09 and '09 to '10. but you have to factor in inflation and interest on debts ect. The public sector faced cuts, this is common knowledge.
9. Military spending goes mainly to the Military-Industrial-Complex. You misinterpreted what I said about bureaucrats, I meant get rid of the useless bureaucrats, who generally earn over $200,000, not specifically those who earn over $200,000. What does the CIA do for the American people apart from blow up skyscrapers, smuggle drugs and blackmail politicians? Nothing. The banks are NOT taxed heavily, they pay themselves $150,000,000,000 a year in bonuses, taxpayers money of course. I don't hear you complaining about the $10+ trillion of Private sector money GIVEN to the banks.

I don't live in America so no I'm not after a handout.




This explains why you have no fucking idea what you're talking about regarding the US.  Just to take one example, out of the many, you state that bankers pay themselves with taxpayer money.  They do not.  They pay themselves with money they earned investing.  As far as the bailouts go the banks have actually netted the taxpayer quite a nice return.  A profit.  Not to mention that the individual bankers pay enormous amounts in personal income tax.  Enormous.  What entities have not returned a profit for the taxpayer?  Union destroyed and owned automobile companies.  $10T given to banks?  What the fuck is that babble?  Are you talking about bank deposits?  :flowstone:


For an education on just who pays the fucking bills in this country go here:

# The top 1 percent: Americans who earned an adjusted gross income of $410,096 or more accounted for 22.8 percent of all wages. But they paid 40.4 percent of total reported income taxes, an increase from 39.9 percent in 2006, according to the IRS.

# The top 5 percent: Americans who earned $160,041 or more accounted for 37.4 percent of all wages in 2007. But they paid 60.6 percent of the country's total reported income taxes, up from 60.1 percent a year earlier.

The rich people in this country pay a grotesquely inflated share of the taxes already.  Almost half the country pays nothing.


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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14002901 - 02/21/11 05:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The rich people in this country pay a grotesquely inflated share of the taxes already.  Almost half the country pays nothing.




The rich people need to get together, organize, and protest this grave injustice. :protest:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: HippieChick8]
    #14002910 - 02/21/11 05:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Or leave.  What the bums will do if that happens I shudder to think.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: HippieChick8]
    #14003012 - 02/21/11 06:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The rich people in this country pay a grotesquely inflated share of the taxes already.  Almost half the country pays nothing.




The rich people need to get together, organize, and protest this grave injustice. :protest:





I'm paying nothing this year.  Course I didn't make anything.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14003286 - 02/21/11 06:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

:cool:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The rich people in this country pay a grotesquely inflated share of the taxes already.  Almost half the country pays nothing.




The rich people need to get together, organize, and protest this grave injustice. :protest:





I'm paying nothing this year.  Course I didn't make anything.:lol:




For the 1st time in a long time I'm paying nothing as well.  I don't need a huge amount of luxury so I don't need to work too much for a corporation or institution to pay the bills.  My husband's carpentry work just picked up quite a bit in the last month, though.  He works for a lot of middle class folks like us. :cool:

@Zappa
You mentioned that you are into comfort and luxury.  I do not need as much as you.  So why the fuck should *I* work to invent, or support the invention of any newfangled luxury?  I work part time at a college and I work on my homestead to build up and maintain *my* food supply.  I don't give a shit about your overblown "needs". Get all your rich cronies together and go on strike for all I care.  Stop crying like a bitch about your taxes and do it already :flipthebird:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: HippieChick8]
    #14003349 - 02/21/11 07:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
:cool:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The rich people in this country pay a grotesquely inflated share of the taxes already.  Almost half the country pays nothing.




The rich people need to get together, organize, and protest this grave injustice. :protest:





I'm paying nothing this year.  Course I didn't make anything.:lol:




For the 1st time in a long time I'm paying nothing as well.  I don't need a huge amount of luxury so I don't need to work too much for a corporation or institution to pay the bills.  My husband's carpentry work just picked up quite a bit in the last month, though.  He works for a lot of middle class folks like us. :cool:

@Zappa
You mentioned that you are into comfort and luxury.  I do not need as much as you.  So why the fuck should *I* work to invent, or support the invention of any newfangled luxury?  I work part time at a college and I work on my homestead to build up and maintain *my* food supply.  I don't give a shit about your overblown "needs". Get all your rich cronies together and go on strike for all I care.  Stop crying like a bitch about your taxes and do it already :flipthebird:




Just countering your lies, sweetheart.

I don;t care what you choose to provide for yourself, nor should you care what I choose to provide for myself.  What I don't like is providing for useless bums so they can continue to suck at my teats.  You, of course, know nothing of that.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14003373 - 02/21/11 07:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> Would you like everyone who's not self employed to earn peanuts, get no benefits, work 14 hours a day six days a week? Because that's the situation we'd be in without the labor movement.

What God died and made you omnipotent?  And what does "the labor movement" have to do with unions?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleBatty Koda
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: HippieChick8]
    #14006264 - 02/22/11 08:14 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
:cool:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The rich people in this country pay a grotesquely inflated share of the taxes already.  Almost half the country pays nothing.




The rich people need to get together, organize, and protest this grave injustice. :protest:





I'm paying nothing this year.  Course I didn't make anything.:lol:




For the 1st time in a long time I'm paying nothing as well.  I don't need a huge amount of luxury so I don't need to work too much for a corporation or institution to pay the bills.  My husband's carpentry work just picked up quite a bit in the last month, though.  He works for a lot of middle class folks like us. :cool:

@Zappa
You mentioned that you are into comfort and luxury.  I do not need as much as you.  So why the fuck should *I* work to invent, or support the invention of any newfangled luxury?  I work part time at a college and I work on my homestead to build up and maintain *my* food supply.  I don't give a shit about your overblown "needs". Get all your rich cronies together and go on strike for all I care.  Stop crying like a bitch about your taxes and do it already :flipthebird:



I don't think there's much point arguing with Zappa, he's so mindfucked that he's sticking up for the banks, who caused this mess then stole our money to keep themselves living the life of luxury. Maybe he is unaware that the rich pay a lot more tax because the richest 1% of the population own 40% of the wealth and the bottom 40% own less then 1%. I'd rather earn $10 Billion and pay half if it in tax then slave away at Mcdonalds on minimum wage and pay 20% of that in tax.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14006449 - 02/22/11 09:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

So you don't want anyone (whos good at it) to disagree with you if I'm understanding you correctly.

If you don't like Mcdonalds then create some wealth for yourself just like others have.

Maybe it's you that's "mindfucked".:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14006462 - 02/22/11 09:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Batty Koda said:



I don't think there's much point arguing with Zappa, he's so mindfucked that he's sticking up for the banks, who caused this mess then stole our money to keep themselves living the life of luxury. Maybe he is unaware that the rich pay a lot more tax because the richest 1% of the population own 40% of the wealth and the bottom 40% own less then 1%. I'd rather earn $10 Billion and pay half if it in tax then slave away at Mcdonalds on minimum wage and pay 20% of that in tax.




Who you calling "we", Limey?  And I posted the tax numbers for the rich.  We don't pay taxes on our wealth but on our income and wealthy people make 22% of the wages but pay 40% of the tax.  Banks didn't steal any money from you or the taxpayers.  You know who stole money?  The shitheads who took out loans and didn't pay them back.

And I'm quite sure you would rather earn a billion dollars.  But I don't think that is going to be in the cards for your welfare loving, entitlement scrounging, panhandling self.


--------------------

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14007197 - 02/22/11 12:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> he's so mindfucked that he's

Please read the forum rules regarding flaming.  It is fine to show that somebody is 'mindfucked' through examples, but it is not fine to call them 'mindfucked'.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #14007409 - 02/22/11 01:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

SCHOOL IS FOR FAGS!

FIRE ALL TEACHERS. CLOSE THE SCHOOLS.

WE HAVE INTERNETS NOW ANYWAY. KIDS NO NEED SCHOOLS!


--------------------
This space for rent

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InvisibleBatty Koda
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #14008427 - 02/22/11 04:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So you don't want anyone (whos good at it) to disagree with you if I'm understanding you correctly.

If you don't like Mcdonalds then create some wealth for yourself just like others have.

Maybe it's you that's "mindfucked".:shrug:



Who said I worked at Mcdonalds? I see you still believe in the "American dream", good for you...
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Batty Koda said:



I don't think there's much point arguing with Zappa, he's so mindfucked that he's sticking up for the banks, who caused this mess then stole our money to keep themselves living the life of luxury. Maybe he is unaware that the rich pay a lot more tax because the richest 1% of the population own 40% of the wealth and the bottom 40% own less then 1%. I'd rather earn $10 Billion and pay half if it in tax then slave away at Mcdonalds on minimum wage and pay 20% of that in tax.




Who you calling "we", Limey?  And I posted the tax numbers for the rich.  We don't pay taxes on our wealth but on our income and wealthy people make 22% of the wages but pay 40% of the tax.  Banks didn't steal any money from you or the taxpayers.  You know who stole money?  The shitheads who took out loans and didn't pay them back.

And I'm quite sure you would rather earn a billion dollars.  But I don't think that is going to be in the cards for your welfare loving, entitlement scrounging, panhandling self.



Where did I say "we"? I said "our" because I assume we both pay taxes, our respective governments gave those tax takings to the banks. The banks loaned those "shitheads" money they couldn't pay back, being such a lover of capitalism don't you think they should deal with their mistakes instead of governments stepping in to bail them out?

That's a lot of assumptions there, obviously in your mindfucked state you can't grasp the concept of caring for anyone but yourself. Also you don't seem to have any idea what would happen if those "scroungers" started getting hungry, hint: Somalia.
Quote:

Seuss said:
> he's so mindfucked that he's

Please read the forum rules regarding flaming.  It is fine to show that somebody is 'mindfucked' through examples, but it is not fine to call them 'mindfucked'.


:eek:

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14008480 - 02/22/11 04:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Batty Koda said:
Quote:

I don't think there's much point arguing with Zappa



It's merely for entertainment at this point.  He doesn't seem to realize that without welfare in this country, there would be great civil unrest.  The upper 1% actually support welfare to keep this from happening.  I'll try to find a source for that later.  But I might be feeling too lazy to do it. :lol:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14008961 - 02/22/11 06:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Who said I worked at Mcdonalds? I see you still believe in the "American dream", good for you...

I really don't but I do believe in the american nightmare. :lol:

But that's neither here nor there. What I was commenting on is the lack of rational in your posts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14009030 - 02/22/11 06:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Batty Koda said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
So you don't want anyone (whos good at it) to disagree with you if I'm understanding you correctly.

If you don't like Mcdonalds then create some wealth for yourself just like others have.

Maybe it's you that's "mindfucked".:shrug:



Who said I worked at Mcdonalds? I see you still believe in the "American dream", good for you...
Quote:







It was an example of entrepreneurial action and not specific to any one thing.  Which failure to understand is not a good harbinger of your future achievement.
Quote:





zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Batty Koda said:



I don't think there's much point arguing with Zappa, he's so mindfucked that he's sticking up for the banks, who caused this mess then stole our money to keep themselves living the life of luxury. Maybe he is unaware that the rich pay a lot more tax because the richest 1% of the population own 40% of the wealth and the bottom 40% own less then 1%. I'd rather earn $10 Billion and pay half if it in tax then slave away at Mcdonalds on minimum wage and pay 20% of that in tax.




Who you calling "we", Limey?  And I posted the tax numbers for the rich.  We don't pay taxes on our wealth but on our income and wealthy people make 22% of the wages but pay 40% of the tax.  Banks didn't steal any money from you or the taxpayers.  You know who stole money?  The shitheads who took out loans and didn't pay them back.

And I'm quite sure you would rather earn a billion dollars.  But I don't think that is going to be in the cards for your welfare loving, entitlement scrounging, panhandling self.



Where did I say "we"? I said "our" because I assume we both pay taxes, our respective governments gave those tax takings to the banks. The banks loaned those "shitheads" money they couldn't pay back, being such a lover of capitalism don't you think they should deal with their mistakes instead of governments stepping in to bail them out?




You have no idea what you are talking about regarding the US.  First of all, the US taxpayer didn't give the banks anything.  Maybe it's a cultural thing but here in the US we don't think that forcing people to take loans at usorious rates is a gift.  The banks have in the US have repaid the loans with huge profits for the taxpayer.  Not even the most rabid leftist retard denies that anymore.  Limeyland?  Who gives a shit?  By the way, your tax dollars do not mingle with mine.  Thankfully.
Quote:



That's a lot of assumptions there, obviously in your mindfucked state you can't grasp the concept of caring for anyone but yourself. Also you don't seem to have any idea what would happen if those "scroungers" started getting hungry, hint: Somalia.
Quote:





Our poor people are better off than your middle class and that is thanks to people like me and our good nature.  They should blow us on the street.
Quote:



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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: HippieChick8]
    #14009036 - 02/22/11 06:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
Batty Koda said:
Quote:

I don't think there's much point arguing with Zappa



It's merely for entertainment at this point.  He doesn't seem to realize that without welfare in this country, there would be great civil unrest.  The upper 1% actually support welfare to keep this from happening.  I'll try to find a source for that later.  But I might be feeling too lazy to do it. :lol:



You have an overwhelming sense of your own ability to prevail in a violent situation.  You are not supported because we fear you.  We could eradicate you with a whim.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14009069 - 02/22/11 06:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
Batty Koda said:
Quote:

I don't think there's much point arguing with Zappa



It's merely for entertainment at this point.  He doesn't seem to realize that without welfare in this country, there would be great civil unrest.  The upper 1% actually support welfare to keep this from happening.  I'll try to find a source for that later.  But I might be feeling too lazy to do it. :lol:



You have an overwhelming sense of your own ability to prevail in a violent situation.  You are not supported because we fear you.  We could eradicate you with a whim.




You are a bad person.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14009085 - 02/22/11 06:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

No.  I am a good and generous person.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14009111 - 02/22/11 06:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You're right, I'm a bad (ass) person.:satansmoking:

And I'm being ignored by 30 people.:grin:


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14009135 - 02/22/11 06:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14009220 - 02/22/11 06:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Batty Koda said:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jul2009/tarp-j22.shtml
:rolleyes:
$23.7 trillion.



:rofl2:


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14009329 - 02/22/11 07:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What's so amusing, Kevin?

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14009677 - 02/22/11 08:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I seriously hope you aren't using someones real name in these forums.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14009773 - 02/22/11 08:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

:eek:

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14011866 - 02/23/11 03:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I have it on good authority that Zippy's real name is Sally.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14012346 - 02/23/11 08:36 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I seriously hope you aren't using someones real name in these forums.



It's OK.  It's in my profile and is no secret.  My last name, on the other hand...........


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14012521 - 02/23/11 09:23 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I thought your name was Frank:confused:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #14012619 - 02/23/11 09:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Indiana Deputy Attorney General advocates using live ammo on protesters:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/indiana-dep-ag-use-live-ammunition-against-wisconsin-protesters.php?ref=fpi

Our own little Qaddafi!

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: jimbotron]
    #14013150 - 02/23/11 12:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

"[A]gainst thugs physically threatening legally-elected state legislators & governor?" he tweeted back at Weinstein. "You're damn right I advocate deadly force."




More lying from jimbotron.  In light of the Giffords shooting I would think you would be in favor of taking physical threats to politicians seriously.  Or is it only serious for liberal politicians?


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14013752 - 02/23/11 01:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Where do you see the thugs? Is it these people, the ones holding up peace signs?



Or is it some of these teachers? They probably shouldn't be teaching kids if they're contemplating murdering an elected official



And is this any different from the tea party rallies? Well, I suppose there is some; this is a genuine movement of the people fighting for a legitimate cause as opposed to a corporate sponsored "grass-roots" populist movement sitting in wheelchairs payed for by medicaid while ranting against socialist welfare. But I digress.

What the deputy attorney general said was "use live ammunition" in regards to the riot police clearing out protesters at 2 AM. What he advocated is exactly the violence used by Gaddafi (also, wtf is the right way to spell his name? I swear I've seen it 20 different ways) and exactly the violence used at the Kent State massacre. Live ammunition to kill peaceful protesters? This is unconscionable.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14013773 - 02/23/11 01:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

PS

Boosh!

PPS

Fox lies

(I gotta read the dailykos more often)


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14013880 - 02/23/11 02:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Where do I see them?  I don't. Yet.  So what does that have to do with him answering a hypothetical?

I knew he got canned.  I don't really give a shit.  There was nothing wrong with that message I quoted.  Not one thing.

I also knew about that poll.  Don't really care.  California and New York have nothing whatsoever to say about what happens in Wisconsin.

Do you know who was against public sector unions?  FDR.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14013942 - 02/23/11 02:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Where do I see them?  I don't. Yet.  So what does that have to do with him answering a hypothetical?

I knew he got canned.  I don't really give a shit.  There was nothing wrong with that message I quoted.  Not one thing.




No, the one you quoted, the justification for his initial statement, was just fine. The problem was the first tweet and you know it.

Quote:

I also knew about that poll.  Don't really care.




Is it you or Phred who wanted evidence that Fox lies? Because that was the issue, I don't care if you don't care about the poll  :wizard:


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14013975 - 02/23/11 02:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You liberals think you are such fucking heroes. Since we are on the topic of civility and speech, here's what one of your own said recently. 

"Congressman Michael Capuano (D-MA) is quoted by the Dorchester Reporter as telling union members in Boston that when it comes to the sort of situation that is occurring in Wisconsin it is sometimes necessary to "get out on the streets and get a little bloody."


http://www.examiner.com/legislative-watch-in-national/michael-capuano-on-wisconsin-time-for-the-unions-to-get-a-little-bloody

Imagine that only just recently a Democrat made a stupid violent comment.

Enjoy your corrupt laborer unions, and keep sticking up for them they are just as corrupt as the CEOS.  My grandfather, mother and brother are in the UAW and work for GM and I've heard all the pros and cons of unions through the years.  The average union employee makes more than non-union who will often times barter for stupid shit they don't deserve and help to sell jobs overseas.  Oh no only the owners of the corporation do that most liberals will say, bullshit nope unions aid in that process to. 

The public school system is the biggest liberal union which would explain why we have so many dumb ass people walking around this country brain washed by their liberal masters.

Edited by despisedicon (02/23/11 02:32 PM)

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14014010 - 02/23/11 02:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Quote:

Where do I see them?  I don't. Yet.  So what does that have to do with him answering a hypothetical?

I knew he got canned.  I don't really give a shit.  There was nothing wrong with that message I quoted.  Not one thing.




No, the one you quoted, the justification for his initial statement, was just fine. The problem was the first tweet and you know it.




I didn't see it.  I only saw that one.
Quote:



Quote:

I also knew about that poll.  Don't really care.




Is it you or Phred who wanted evidence that Fox lies? Because that was the issue, I don't care if you don't care about the poll  :wizard:




They made a mistake.  I don't care that much. I can find similar shit in the NY Times every day.  They run retractions every day.  It is kind of ridiculous to single FoxNews out, though, don't you think, especially considering the shit about Dan Rather?

Why oh why does anybody watch TV for news?  Seriously.  It's packaged for morons.  It has to be given the time constraints.


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: despisedicon]
    #14014097 - 02/23/11 02:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not a hero, I would be a hero if I bussed out to Madison though

Anyhoo, here's the full quote:

“I’m proud to be here with people who understand that it’s more than just sending an email to get you going. Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary"

The article you linked (if you can call it an article) was almost entirely opinion. Here's the difference between saying "get a little bloody" and "use live ammunition"

Fair notice: If you are weak of constitution don't click the links, there will be blood.

A little bloody

Live ammo (gore)

A little bloody is a metaphor for getting outside and fighting for rights, which is clear from the context of the quote. The congressman talks about not just writing emails but actively protesting. The difference between that and saying use live ammo is that a little bloody means people stay alive.

Now begone


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14014112 - 02/23/11 02:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I didn't see it.  I only saw that one.




:rofl:

Really? The ostrich defense? I can't see it therefore it does not exist. For your edification, dear friend.



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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14014120 - 02/23/11 02:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Who said I worked at Mcdonalds? I see you still believe in the "American dream", good for you...

I really don't but I do believe in the american nightmare. :lol:






Good, both of you put yourself in a mental prison.  That's a very weak person's way of thinking.  The American Dream doesn't even apply to economic standings, it applies to living your life anyway your want without an outside person telling you otherwise.  If you don't believe in that I would like to meet you so I can feel your limp wrist handshake and hear about your life that you think is SOOOOO bad. 


Please trade in your U.S. citizenship for someone who is willing to swim in a raft to get here or some Arab kid who studies his ass off just to live in a westernized country.

Edited by despisedicon (02/23/11 04:18 PM)

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14014182 - 02/23/11 02:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Hey Zappa, good work hijacking this thread.  You do a fantastic job of turning a political discussion into a discussion of your personal politics. No longer are we discussing what's right or wrong or exciting or frightening or simply interesting, but instead what you do or don't care about.

I don't agree that you're the center of the universe and I'd find it fitting if you wouldn't insist making yourself the center of this thread.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14014205 - 02/23/11 02:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Bullshit, I knew you would play the metaphor card.  We don't have those anymore due to Sarah Palin and her cross hair signs, remember that?

It's all or nothing, and this guy is just as stupid as Palin and her signs. 



"Get a little bloody" is a JUST a metaphor?  LOLOLOL 

So why not just say "get out and fight for your rights"? 

"The difference between that and saying use live ammo is that a little bloody means people stay alive."

But.....but.....it's a "little" bloody.  LOLOOLOLOLLOL

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: despisedicon]
    #14014280 - 02/23/11 03:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

:rolleyes:

It's all or nothing? Yes, that's exactly it. The world is black and white. Not that anything palin does is significant, but the crosshairs were a metaphor too. Durp. Both have associated imagery of fighting, a good thing to have when you're seeking to drum up support. But if you are saying that a little bloody means exactly the same thing as use live ammunition then you are failing to grasp portions of the english language. If someone you knew got shot in the head (by live ammo), would you consider describing the injury as "a little bloody?"


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: despisedicon] * 1
    #14014390 - 02/23/11 03:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

and keep sticking up for them they are just as corrupt as the CEOS.
:thumbup:


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14014445 - 02/23/11 03:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Hey Zappa, good work hijacking this thread.  You do a fantastic job of turning a political discussion into a discussion of your personal politics. No longer are we discussing what's right or wrong or exciting or frightening or simply interesting, but instead what you do or don't care about.

I don't agree that you're the center of the universe and I'd find it fitting if you wouldn't insist making yourself the center of this thread.




What the fuck is this child babbling about?  Anybody?


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14014607 - 02/23/11 03:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

He's babbling about how you harp on unrelated things.

I was clearly referring to the "live ammo" tweet, which I think most people find quite disturbing. You start babbling about another one in which he refers to Union assassins or something, who quite simply do not exist, in order to change the subject.

Not that it was really convincing, but it gets annoying.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: jimbotron]
    #14014688 - 02/23/11 04:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Inexplicably, Cox has now been fired.

I have no idea why the Illinois AG chose to part with his best and wisest employee; perhaps he wanted to spend more time with his family.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14014702 - 02/23/11 04:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Where do you see the thugs? Is it these people, the ones holding up peace signs?







I count 4  fists, one offer for a prostate exam, one sign talking about killing and only 2 peace signs


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14014758 - 02/23/11 04:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Hey Zappa, good work hijacking this thread.  You do a fantastic job of turning a political discussion into a discussion of your personal politics. No longer are we discussing what's right or wrong or exciting or frightening or simply interesting, but instead what you do or don't care about.

I don't agree that you're the center of the universe and I'd find it fitting if you wouldn't insist making yourself the center of this thread.




What the fuck is this child babbling about?  Anybody?




My point exactly.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14014769 - 02/23/11 04:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You failed to see my sarcasm and I apologize seeing as it doesn't translate into the Internet very well.  My point being is that both sides are known to protrude this kind of language when it suits their agenda and lampoon the other side when it goes against. 

"But if you are saying that a little bloody means exactly the same thing as use live ammunition then you are failing to grasp portions of the english language. If someone you knew got shot in the head (by live ammo), would you consider describing the injury as "a little bloody?"

You are supposed to capitalize the word English when you are going to use it in a sentence as you did.  :smug:

As for myself I am not going to examine every single edgy statement a politician makes. And I stand by my statement of "it's all or nothing". I was pointing out dodgy speech used by a person of the other side which you were so quick to defend as acceptable with your brilliant retort of "it's only a little bloody".  Either we as individuals apply the same standards to politicians or none at all.

You are using the same old argument of, "I know it when I see it".

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14014834 - 02/23/11 04:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Hey Zappa, good work hijacking this thread.  You do a fantastic job of turning a political discussion into a discussion of your personal politics. No longer are we discussing what's right or wrong or exciting or frightening or simply interesting, but instead what you do or don't care about.

I don't agree that you're the center of the universe and I'd find it fitting if you wouldn't insist making yourself the center of this thread.




What the fuck is this child babbling about?  Anybody?





He's butt hurt.:lol:


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14014836 - 02/23/11 04:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Hey Zappa, good work hijacking this thread.  You do a fantastic job of turning a political discussion into a discussion of your personal politics. No longer are we discussing what's right or wrong or exciting or frightening or simply interesting, but instead what you do or don't care about.

I don't agree that you're the center of the universe and I'd find it fitting if you wouldn't insist making yourself the center of this thread.




What the fuck is this child babbling about?  Anybody?




My point exactly.





IMO you don't have a point.:satansmoking:


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14014850 - 02/23/11 04:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Hey Zappa, good work hijacking this thread.  You do a fantastic job of turning a political discussion into a discussion of your personal politics. No longer are we discussing what's right or wrong or exciting or frightening or simply interesting, but instead what you do or don't care about.

I don't agree that you're the center of the universe and I'd find it fitting if you wouldn't insist making yourself the center of this thread.




What the fuck is this child babbling about?  Anybody?





He's butt hurt.:lol:




...and you're a toady. LOLZ all around.

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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14014914 - 02/23/11 04:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Where do you see the thugs? Is it these people, the ones holding up peace signs?







I count 4  fists, one offer for a prostate exam, one sign talking about killing and only 2 peace signs





Maybe it's this guy:

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/23/video-cwa-union-thug-strikes-young-female-freedomworks-activist/


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #14015269 - 02/23/11 05:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Hey Zappa, good work hijacking this thread.  You do a fantastic job of turning a political discussion into a discussion of your personal politics. No longer are we discussing what's right or wrong or exciting or frightening or simply interesting, but instead what you do or don't care about.

I don't agree that you're the center of the universe and I'd find it fitting if you wouldn't insist making yourself the center of this thread.




What the fuck is this child babbling about?  Anybody?





He's butt hurt.:lol:






...and you're a toady. LOLZ all around.




I hope Zapps aware of this.  I've been trying to get his attention for five years now.  :heart:  My anti political stance keeps mucking it all up .:sad:


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14015636 - 02/23/11 06:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

2.  Your mother is 100% irrelevant.  I assume she isn't a current Wisconsin teacher.
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=24855






I realize that this is probably irrelevant to the thread as it was posted near the beginning but I just want to point out that that bitch seriously misrepresented the actual statistics. If you look at the spreadsheet you will see that the vast majority of school districts average salaries fall somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 dollars a year and the lowest average, for kenosha school district is 18,983. The highest average salary of any school district is 72,499, very high, but not even as high as the average(for all teachers in Wisconsin) stated by Darleen, the real average across all the school districts is obviously much lower than that.

Edit- what is meant by "average fringe"? I may be wrong about this.


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:eatingout:

Edited by NortonStPhallus (02/23/11 06:54 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #14018721 - 02/24/11 08:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The "bitch", as you so lovingly refer to her, was talking about total compensation, not just salary.  Salary numbers do not include the cost of health benefits and pension benefits.  Probably some other benefits as well.  Further there is the fact that they only work about 9 months of the year.


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OfflineNortonStPhallus
Male


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 760
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14018974 - 02/24/11 09:36 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I called her a bitch out of righteous fury when I thought that she was being blatantly dishonest, I realize now that I was wrong :huxleyfacepalm:, move along.


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:eatingout:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: NortonStPhallus]
    #14019091 - 02/24/11 10:04 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:  Who opened the window and let in some fresh air?

Check the forum rules however to make sure you can't be banned for admitting you were wrong. :satansmoking:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14019379 - 02/24/11 11:11 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup:  Who opened the window and let in some fresh air?

Check the forum rules however to make sure you can't be banned for admitting you were wrong. :satansmoking:



THIS WILL NOT STAND!  TO THE BARRICADES!


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