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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995454 - 02/20/11 12:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Wouldn't failing students be the best thing for federal government budget? It's not like the US helps many people with the their pell grants. I got a measly 235 a year to support my college education. Many of these failing students are taking out federal student loans and paying them back on interest. It is not like we wasted money on them, they wasted their own money. I think the reasons they don't finish is more important that the fact that they don't finish.  Canada's graduation rate is much higher than the US, and number one in the world. College education is paid for in taxes... There are so many factors, we have to be careful not to make assumptions on cause and effect. I'm not implying they are better off for it, i'm just saying it is not as a clear cut as you are trying to make it seem.

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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995525 - 02/20/11 12:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Teachers and professors decently because education is the backbone of our economy. By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.



Did you see what I posted above?  The average WI teacher gets $75K.  NOT community college professors.  If the average for these teachers was $60,000 there wouldn't be a problem.




Just to be clear, the figure you cite ($75k/yr. compensation for the average WI teacher) MUST include benefits.  All the statistics I've read put the average rate of pay at under $50k/yr. 

We do need a way of comparing teachers' benefits to those of other professions, but lumping it all together w/o caveat distorts things.

I also find it distressing that the U.S. education system spends so much more than other countries w/o achieving their success rates.  However, I don't think you can assume that all that extra money (or even any of it necessarily) goes into salaries. Where, then, does it go?  Here are a couple of possibilities off the top of my head: 1. textbooks. In Germany students buy their own books, usually the size of a National Geographic magazine, rather than having the district buy enormous tomes that cost way more than any sensible individual would pay for them. 2. bussing. European schools are generally smaller and don't have their own fleets, but are instead integrate into the public transit system. 3. extra curriculars.  Good luck finding a European school with swimming pools and football stadiums.

Again, the above factors are all off the top of my head.  I mean only to question the implication that the high cost of education in the U.S. relative to higher-performing countries is due to teachers' salaries.

Another factor that figures into the misleading figure of $75k/yr. TOTAL COMPENSATION, incl. benefits, which you cite, is the cost of health care in the U.S.  The burden of insuring teachers does not fall upon the education system in Europe, because they have much better and much more efficient national systems than the U.S. does. However, I don't think the answer is to yank teachers' plans.  Were one to do that, all but the most experienced teachers would have no chance of paying for decent insurance.  Having them pay a bit more towards their plans would be a possibility. But that's no reason to bust the union.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995539 - 02/20/11 12:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
Wouldn't failing students be the best thing for federal government budget? It's not like the US helps many people with the their pell grants. I got a measly 235 a year to support my college education. Many of these failing students are taking out federal student loans and paying them back on interest. It is not like we wasted money on them, they wasted their own money. I think the reasons they don't finish is more important that the fact that they don't finish.  Canada's graduation rate is much higher than the US, and number one in the world. College education is paid for in taxes... There are so many factors, we have to be careful not to make assumptions on cause and effect. I'm not implying they are better off for it, i'm just saying it is not as a clear cut as you are trying to make it seem.



Only wasting their own money?  Did you actually look at the numbers?  The graduate rates for private institutions are at the top.  The graduate rates for public institutions are in the toilet.  PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS!  Mostly paid for by the taxpayers.  A huge waste of resources, of the taxpayer funds, of teacher's time, and of the student's lives.  Instead of pursuing worthless evasions of life's responsibilities we should completely end any subsidy for marginal degree candidates.  Somebody who graduates high school with a C average has no business going to college.  Not on my dime, anyway.

Education loans are net losers for the government taxpayer
http://febp.newamerica.net/background-analysis/federal-student-loan-cost-estimates
Final sentence:
Quote:

Others have argued that the cost differences should prompt policy makers to reduce costs in the more expensive program, or eliminate the higher cost program altogether.



Ya think?  They did exactly the opposite by abolishing FFEL in the Health deform bill.

I don't give two shits about what happens in Canada.  It has no relevance


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13995580 - 02/20/11 01:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Teachers and professors decently because education is the backbone of our economy. By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.



Did you see what I posted above?  The average WI teacher gets $75K.  NOT community college professors.  If the average for these teachers was $60,000 there wouldn't be a problem.




Just to be clear, the figure you cite ($75k/yr. compensation for the average WI teacher) MUST include benefits.  All the statistics I've read put the average rate of pay at under $50k/yr.




Yes, of course it does.  Do you think that isn't compensation?  Because if I didn't have to buy my own health insurance and fund my own retirement account I would sure count getting those things as compensation.:flowstone:
Quote:



We do need a way of comparing teachers' benefits to those of other professions, but lumping it all together w/o caveat distorts things.




No, actually not counting it distorts things.  Compensation is compensation. 
Quote:



I also find it distressing that the U.S. education system spends so much more than other countries w/o achieving their success rates.  However, I don't think you can assume that all that extra money (or even any of it necessarily) goes into salaries. Where, then, does it go?  Here are a couple of possibilities off the top of my head: 1. textbooks. In Germany students buy their own books, usually the size of a National Geographic magazine, rather than having the district buy enormous tomes that cost way more than any sensible individual would pay for them. 2. bussing. European schools are generally smaller and don't have their own fleets, but are instead integrate into the public transit system. 3. extra curriculars.  Good luck finding a European school with swimming pools and football stadiums.

Again, the above factors are all off the top of my head.  I mean only to question the implication that the high cost of education in the U.S. relative to higher-performing countries is due to teachers' salaries.

Another factor that figures into the misleading figure of $75k/yr. TOTAL COMPENSATION, incl. benefits, which you cite, is the cost of health care in the U.S.  The burden of insuring teachers does not fall upon the education system in Europe, because they have much better and much more efficient national systems than the U.S. does. However, I don't think the answer is to yank teachers' plans.  Were one to do that, all but the most experienced teachers would have no chance of paying for decent insurance.  Having them pay a bit more towards their plans would be a possibility. But that's no reason to bust the union.




I don't give a fuck about Europe.  I have no idea what Europe pays teachers nor do I have any desire to devolve into the socialist but recovering idiocy that is most of Europe.  At no point have I ever made any comparison to Europe.  Because it is irrelevant and impossible.

You mention that having them contribute more to their plans as reasonable.  That is in fact what this bill does
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/02/028414.php
   
Quote:

Here's what Governor Walker's Budget Repair Bill that they're so angry about actually does:

    - Ask government workers to pay half the cost of their pensions - still less than private employees pay for their pensions

    - Ask government workers to pay 12% of their own health insurance premiums - the national average for the private sector is over 20%

    - End collective bargaining for government unions for pensions and benefits. Allow bargaining only for raises that are less than inflation.

    - End forced union dues, collected by the state. Union dues would become voluntary.

    - Union members get to vote yearly on whether to keep their union.

Are those significant reforms? Absolutely. Hence the desperation on the Left to frustrate them. But in talking about what is at stake, it is helpful to be concrete about what the legislation would actually do.





It doesn't even "bust" the union.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995835 - 02/20/11 02:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Rebirtha said:
We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Teachers and professors decently because education is the backbone of our economy. By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.



Did you see what I posted above?  The average WI teacher gets $75K.  NOT community college professors.  If the average for these teachers was $60,000 there wouldn't be a problem.




Just to be clear, the figure you cite ($75k/yr. compensation for the average WI teacher) MUST include benefits.  All the statistics I've read put the average rate of pay at under $50k/yr.




Yes, of course it does.  Do you think that isn't compensation?  Because if I didn't have to buy my own health insurance and fund my own retirement account I would sure count getting those things as compensation.:flowstone:
Quote:



We do need a way of comparing teachers' benefits to those of other professions, but lumping it all together w/o caveat distorts things.




No, actually not counting it distorts things.  Compensation is compensation. 
Quote:



I also find it distressing that the U.S. education system spends so much more than other countries w/o achieving their success rates.  However, I don't think you can assume that all that extra money (or even any of it necessarily) goes into salaries. Where, then, does it go?  Here are a couple of possibilities off the top of my head: 1. textbooks. In Germany students buy their own books, usually the size of a National Geographic magazine, rather than having the district buy enormous tomes that cost way more than any sensible individual would pay for them. 2. bussing. European schools are generally smaller and don't have their own fleets, but are instead integrate into the public transit system. 3. extra curriculars.  Good luck finding a European school with swimming pools and football stadiums.

Again, the above factors are all off the top of my head.  I mean only to question the implication that the high cost of education in the U.S. relative to higher-performing countries is due to teachers' salaries.

Another factor that figures into the misleading figure of $75k/yr. TOTAL COMPENSATION, incl. benefits, which you cite, is the cost of health care in the U.S.  The burden of insuring teachers does not fall upon the education system in Europe, because they have much better and much more efficient national systems than the U.S. does. However, I don't think the answer is to yank teachers' plans.  Were one to do that, all but the most experienced teachers would have no chance of paying for decent insurance.  Having them pay a bit more towards their plans would be a possibility. But that's no reason to bust the union.




I don't give a fuck about Europe.  I have no idea what Europe pays teachers nor do I have any desire to devolve into the socialist but recovering idiocy that is most of Europe.  At no point have I ever made any comparison to Europe.  Because it is irrelevant and impossible.

You mention that having them contribute more to their plans as reasonable.  That is in fact what this bill does
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/02/028414.php
   
Quote:

Here's what Governor Walker's Budget Repair Bill that they're so angry about actually does:

    - Ask government workers to pay half the cost of their pensions - still less than private employees pay for their pensions

    - Ask government workers to pay 12% of their own health insurance premiums - the national average for the private sector is over 20%

    - End collective bargaining for government unions for pensions and benefits. Allow bargaining only for raises that are less than inflation.

    - End forced union dues, collected by the state. Union dues would become voluntary.

    - Union members get to vote yearly on whether to keep their union.

Are those significant reforms? Absolutely. Hence the desperation on the Left to frustrate them. But in talking about what is at stake, it is helpful to be concrete about what the legislation would actually do.





It doesn't even "bust" the union.




Ending collecting bargaining, forcing the union to go through the motions of re-forming itself every year, then offering the option to not paying dues to the severely weakened, useless institution that results is tantamount to busting it.

Not allowing for international comparison is more than a little dishonest.  It hamstrings the debate to a narrow bandwidth of solutions, changing the question to 'how can we improve the situation without structural change' or 'how can we cut costs through the one option now on the table, i.e. busting the unions'.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13995849 - 02/20/11 02:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> It doesn't even "bust" the union.

... but it gives the union members the right to bust the union and we can't have that, now can we.  This is a democracy after all.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13995960 - 02/20/11 02:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:


Ending collecting bargaining, forcing the union to go through the motions of re-forming itself every year, then offering the option to not paying dues to the severely weakened, useless institution that results is tantamount to busting it.




No, it is not tantamount to busting the union.  For one thing, it does not completely end collective bargaining.  For another thing why shouldn't the members of the union be allowed to vote to get rid of it?  Why should teachers be forced to join a union?  Finally, since unions are in fact adversarial to the government why should the government collect their fucking dues?  Fuck that. 
Quote:



Not allowing for international comparison is more than a little dishonest.  It hamstrings the debate to a narrow bandwidth of solutions, changing the question to 'how can we improve the situation without structural change' or 'how can we cut costs through the one option now on the table, i.e. busting the unions'.




Narrow bandwidth?  The only debate should be regarding the teachers in WI since they are the only people affected.  Further I don't see how it is even possible to compare them to Europe.  Did you post teacher salaries for each of the countries in Europe along with a comparison of government subsidies and benefits generally provided to all workers in Europe?  No, you did not.

Just to make myself clear I believe, as did FDR, that public employee unions are a perversion and should be busted.  But that's just from somebody who pays the fucking bill.  And is sick of it.  Sick of getting the same shit performance for more and more money every fucking year.  The teachers' union stands for exactly one thing.  Getting more money for teachers and never holding any of them accountable.  That's it.  They are not advocates for the children, as they so falsely claim.  If they gave a shit about the children they'd be in class.  Teaching, not whining that they are a protected class with special privileges not enjoyed by the general population.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13995966 - 02/20/11 02:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> It doesn't even "bust" the union.

... but it gives the union members the right to bust the union and we can't have that, now can we.  This is a democracy after all.



But some animals are more equal than others.


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Offlinesnitchelpowerz37
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13996128 - 02/20/11 03:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I have a question for Zappa or anyone else seeming to imply that teachers deserve most of the blame for the failing of this countries students.

Where are the fucking parents in all of this?

Teachers get a handful of hours every week to work with their students, and pretty much entirely with no one on one time.  Shouldn't the parents take the brunt of the responsibility? Considering it is their own kid and they have all the time in the world to raise and teach them.

See, the problem in this country isn't an educational one, it is a cultural one.  If parents were better equipped with the knowledge and skills to bring up a half way decent child then kids would be much more prepared to succeed in school.

That being said, I think the school system could be revamped and changed entirely.  We at least need some more experimentation on different pedagogical techniques.  Children need to want to learn and sadly most kids don't these days.  If we could somehow get rid of all the shit that makes kids feel so uncomfortable in school (bullying, racism, authority, etc) as well as develop a habit of students helping other students and only have as small of classes as possible, kids would probably view education in a whole new light.

Edited by snitchelpowerz37 (02/20/11 03:16 PM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #13996160 - 02/20/11 03:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

theres also a pervasive pattern of judging all the union members by the actions of a small minority...

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13996196 - 02/20/11 03:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The average WI teacher gets 75K. (including benefits)



Did you know the bulk of the Wisconsin population is in the southeastern part of the state just north of the Chicago area?  The cost of living is high in that part of the country.  I lived there the 1st 36 years of my life.

I think the students themselves and their parents should take MOST of the blame for their sucky performance.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #13996211 - 02/20/11 03:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> I have a question for Zappa or anyone else seeming to imply that teachers deserve most of the blame for the failing of this countries students.

I don't think any of us have been claiming that the teachers are to blame for the failing education system.  Unions that protect worthless teachers for repercussions are certainly part of the problem.  Parents, or lack thereof, in my opinion, are the biggest problem.  Too many parents have decided that three cars and a TV in every room are more important than raising their children.  They teach their children that they (the kids) are special and deserve anything they want without having to work for it.  They (the parents) believe that their children are somehow special and deserve special treatment, regardless of the costs to others.

> theres also a pervasive pattern of judging all the union members by the actions of a small minority...

That is your twisted interpretation of anybody that is anti-union.  I have no problem at all with union members.  I have a huge problem with unions in general.  The unions, not the union members, are to blame for various problems.  The unions are greedy, deceitful entities that survive by creating strife between management and labor.  They were necessary at one time, before labor laws, but now are nothing more than racketeering extortionists protected by law.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #13996306 - 02/20/11 03:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

steezemachinee said:
I have a question for Zappa or anyone else seeming to imply that teachers deserve most of the blame for the failing of this countries students.

Where are the fucking parents in all of this?

Teachers get a handful of hours every week to work with their students, and pretty much entirely with no one on one time.  Shouldn't the parents take the brunt of the responsibility considering it is their own kid and they have all the time in the world to raise and teach them.

See, the problem in this country isn't an educational one, it is a cultural one.  If parents were better equipped with the knowledge and skills to bring up a half way decent child then kids would be much more prepared to succeed in school.

That being said, I think the school system could be revamped and changed entirely.  We at least need some more experimentation on different pedagogical techniques.  Children need to want to learn and sadly most kids don't these days.  If we could somehow get rid of all the shit that makes kids feel so uncomfortable in school (bullying, racism, authority, etc) as well as develop a habit of students helping other students and only have as small of classes as possible, kids would probably view education in a whole new light.



I do not blame the individual teachers so much as I blame the unions.  Most teachers should be and probably are up in arms that bad teachers are protected as much as they are.

And the point is not that they are entirely responsible for the state of education today.  They aren't.  The point is that we were told for decades that teachers were underpaid and if we gave them more money and better benefits we would get a better product from more motivated and talented teachers.  That is 100% unequivocally and proven false.  Now as a matter of course shouldn't we be trying to negotiate for the vast majority of taxpayers a lower cost for the same product?  We didn't get more by paying more so we should be going back to paying less.  Anything else is stupid.  Isn't that what politicians are supposed to do?  Making sure we aren't throwing taxpayer dollars down a fucking rathole.  Just what justifies paying union leaders who don't even teach?

As far as the culture issue goes I think that the kind of culture as represented by unionism, specifically their efforts to avoid any personal accountability by union members, is part and parcel of the pernicious effect of a swelling "it's not my responsibility" culture in the US.  But let me make myself completely clear.  This is not universal.  When my parents found out there was a problem in school their immediate reaction was "What did Kevin do?"  Now the default position is for the parents to ask, "Why are you persecuting my wonderful thug?"  I'll leave you with a song



English band, by the way.


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InvisibleBatty Koda
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13999631 - 02/21/11 04:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If anyone taking part in these strikes is reading this check this out.
http://tarpley.net/2011/02/20/wisconsin-union-busting-drive/
And this.

Tarpley is in his element with this sort of thing. If we don't resist the attacks on unions then severe "austerity" will be coming our way. Sending us into an economic death spiral and David Rockefeller will get his dream of turning western nations into third world hell holes.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Batty Koda]
    #13999824 - 02/21/11 07:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The unions have been ripping off the taxpayer and everybody else not in a union for decades.  Fuck them.


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Offlinesnitchelpowerz37
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13999853 - 02/21/11 07:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)



Great video someone shared with me.  It helps to show why people are upset as they are.  I am not very invested in political matters, but it does seem like this bill popped out of no where a week ago and the methods of getting it through have been less  than ethical.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14000181 - 02/21/11 09:41 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The unions have been ripping off the taxpayer and everybody else not in a union for decades.  Fuck them.





Every union I've ever been in has been a stab in the back imo.  Just as corrupt and self serving as the management we were having issues with.  In fact I was responsible for the defeat of a union that I was involved with trying to bring in to a workplace I was at. Once I discovered (by accident) how corrupt  it was I reversed positions just in time to convince employees not to vote them in.  I rock.:satansmoking:

The great part was that by almost getting the union the general manager resigned and the new boss (who was a good one) gave us the union/employee contract as our new employee manual. So we got all our demands and no dues. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #14000627 - 02/21/11 11:08 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

steezemachinee said:


Great video someone shared with me.  It helps to show why people are upset as they are.  I am not very invested in political matters, but it does seem like this bill popped out of no where a week ago and the methods of getting it through have been less  than ethical.



Quote:

Video has been removed by the user.




I'm sure it was utterly brilliant.
 

There is nothing unethical, improper or surprising about this bill.  What is unethical, though not surprising, is the behavior of the teachers going on an illegal and fraudulent strike, doctors writing fake sick notes, and the cowardly Democrat legislators who ran out on their jobs.  The People of Wisconsin had an election last November and they flipped the state Republican expressly for the purpose of doing stuff like this.  The people spoke and the fucking losers need to accept it.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14000656 - 02/21/11 11:12 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

So we got all our demands and no dues. :lol:




Guess what my response to employee demands was.  Come on, guess.


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InvisibleBatty Koda
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Icelander]
    #14000857 - 02/21/11 11:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The unions have been ripping off the taxpayer and everybody else not in a union for decades.  Fuck them.





Every union I've ever been in has been a stab in the back imo.  Just as corrupt and self serving as the management we were having issues with.  In fact I was responsible for the defeat of a union that I was involved with trying to bring in to a workplace I was at. Once I discovered (by accident) how corrupt  it was I reversed positions just in time to convince employees not to vote them in.  I rock.:satansmoking:

The great part was that by almost getting the union the general manager resigned and the new boss (who was a good one) gave us the union/employee contract as our new employee manual. So we got all our demands and no dues. :lol:



So on one hand people are arguing that teachers get paid too much, on the other hand you are saying unions are corrupt and pointless? Don't you think there might be some kind of connection between good pay and benefits with high union membership, willingness to strike ect? Would you like everyone who's not self employed to earn peanuts, get no benefits, work 14 hours a day six days a week? Because that's the situation we'd be in without the labor movement. Remember the mills of the Victorian era where people were worked to death to line the pockets of the industrialists? That's where people like Walker are trying to send us back to.

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