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Rebirtha
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
#13995071 - 02/20/11 11:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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haha like we have actually thrown teachers money?!.. You are assuming all the teachers in the US are the cause of bad education? It is a piece of the puzzle, but to say it definitively is false.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
#13995076 - 02/20/11 11:18 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.
No way. Maybe as the dean of your dept. after working there for decades.
And I mention community college because you need a masters to teach there. People with masters degrees routinely work for 30k a year. Not all master's degrees are marketable outside of teaching. Mine wont be. But why should someone with a B.S. in education think they deserve more than that? Somebody from my lab just graduated with their PhD and is starting out at 40k as a professor at a 4 year university. I dont think that is a bad deal at all.
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Rebirtha
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
#13995090 - 02/20/11 11:22 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...
Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 11:28 AM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
#13995107 - 02/20/11 11:28 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rebirtha said: You are assuming all the teachers in the US are the cause of bad education? It is a piece of the puzzle, but to say it definitively is false.
I believe that is very much the largest piece of the puzzle. Teachers, and their union, work tirelessly to remove as much accountability from them as they want. I actually saw a teacher's union spokesman say that they were 'taking up themselves to police themselves'. ROFL! Give me a break lady, thats not how it works. Education is too important for teachers to not be held accountable. Every year the teachers that show the poorest results should be let go. Its not nice, but education is too important to coddle to the bad teachers. And there are so, so many bad teachers.
The college system is hurt by this too. Nobody gets fired for poor teaching or performance, more money is always cried for and better results are few and far between.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
#13995112 - 02/20/11 11:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rebirtha said: It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...
The times are a changin'. Its not sustainable for such workers to demand such high wages. Thats part of the complaint, these teachers get huge pay checks and sit comfortably without accountability. I, as a prospective upcoming teacher, will have to work for much less than that and will likely never get raises up to that amount.
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Rebirtha
I really like bread




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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
#13995139 - 02/20/11 11:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree that there should be higher accountability for teacher performance. And I have personally seen teachers fired for poor performance. I happen to have 4 close friends who are teachers so I hear both sides of the story. The bad part of the unions is obviously the lack accountability on teaching these children. But at the same time you can't expect the standards to increase when class size increases, and pay stays the same while inflation goes up, and more furlough days, less planning periods. HOW CAN THAT BE THE FAULT OF THE TEACHERS? Teachers ARE being screwed now and many of them don't like the union either even though it provides them with some protections. They need their union, but they need a union with restrictions. Everybody is screwed in this current situation. Education isn't like the free market, our government spends its money away and then makes it harder on the employees, and it is all politics... it's really sad actually how stupid these kids are going to be. I hope that conservatives can realize that. I consider myself conservative but you really do need protection for public school teachers, if not in the form of pay (even though getting pay cuts every years is devastating), they need protection in class size, and so do the kids. 40 kids to a classroom? no wonder nothing comes out right.
Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 11:43 AM)
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Rebirtha
I really like bread




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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
#13995165 - 02/20/11 11:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Rebirtha said: It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...
The times are a changin'. Its not sustainable for such workers to demand such high wages. Thats part of the complaint, these teachers get huge pay checks and sit comfortably without accountability. I, as a prospective upcoming teacher, will have to work for much less than that and will likely never get raises up to that amount.
50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really, and having the responsibility of being a professor at a university...And during the past 3 years many of them haven't received cost of living raises even though the cost of living continues to rise, while classrooms continue to combine. I don't see where these demands are being made. They are demanding to not have their pay cut. They are saying the state should find a more fiscally conservative way to allocate money rather than cutting teachers pay.
Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 11:52 AM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
#13995191 - 02/20/11 11:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Charter schools are free of teacher's unions, and they have higher payed teachers, better test results and better conditions are reported by both the students and the teachers. Choice is the key, the ability to fire your school/teacher is paramount. These european and asian nations that are reportedly 'better' than us in education generally have a system where the parent gets a choice. Its not just, this is your address, this is your teacher, deal with it. Thats how it is with the US, and it doesnt need to be. Also, as I mentioned earlier, the money spent on students needs to be more evenly distributed. I know that means federalizing it, but I cant help but come to the conclusion that this is what should be done.
(A personal anecdote; I went to an above average elementry school. But there was a notoriously bad 2nd grade teacher. She was old, mean and parents and kids had been complaining about her for years. I still remember the day we went to the school to see what teacher we would get for 2nd grade. We looked on the board, and Oh No!, I got the bad teacher. My mom was sad, I didnt want her, but thats what the school gave us and my mom never even thought to protest or demand the right to choose a different teacher. Looking back, I cant help but feel she was dis-empowered to help her son and I know I would now never tolerate that. The parent should reserve the right to interview the teachers and make that decision.)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
#13995202 - 02/20/11 11:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rebirtha said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Rebirtha said: It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...
The times are a changin'. Its not sustainable for such workers to demand such high wages. Thats part of the complaint, these teachers get huge pay checks and sit comfortably without accountability. I, as a prospective upcoming teacher, will have to work for much less than that and will likely never get raises up to that amount.
50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really, and having the responsibility of being a professor at a university... do you really think so? I know people who make much more doing much less important work.
So what? The market pays what the market pays. Who are you to decide how much professors teaching marginal students useless subjects are worth? A lot of people have been sold a big bunch of bullshit that a college degree confers any utility at all. For most people all it confers is a dubious credential that they wasted 4 years of their lives and great sums of money to attain. They never should have attended in the first place and should have gone to work learning something useful. Like plumbing. As opposed to the endless parade of useless social "science" and art history degree holders.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
#13995205 - 02/20/11 11:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really
I hear that all the time, usually from people who dont have masters degrees.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
#13995218 - 02/20/11 11:54 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Charter schools are free of teacher's unions, and they have higher payed teachers, better test results and better conditions are reported by both the students and the teachers. Choice is the key, the ability to fire your school/teacher is paramount. These european and asian nations that are reportedly 'better' than us in education generally have a system where the parent gets a choice. Its not just, this is your address, this is your teacher, deal with it. Thats how it is with the US, and it doesnt need to be. Also, as I mentioned earlier, the money spent on students needs to be more evenly distributed. I know that means federalizing it, but I cant help but come to the conclusion that this is what should be done.
I'm not so sure about that. Private school teachers make much less than public school teachers. I know they aren't the same as charter schools but still......
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Rebirtha
I really like bread




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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
#13995227 - 02/20/11 11:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't have a masters degreQuote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Rebirtha said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Rebirtha said: It has nothing to do with what they think they deserve. It is what the school thinks they deserve, and what they need to employees to be paid to continue working for them. I'm not talking about what you start out at, and there are outliers for every case, (paying really high, paying really low) but if you look at average pay it is way more than 30k. The Bureau of Labor Statistics put post secondary teachers as so "Median annual earnings of all postsecondary teachers in May 2008 were $58,830. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,600 and $83,960." A little different than 20-30k...
The times are a changin'. Its not sustainable for such workers to demand such high wages. Thats part of the complaint, these teachers get huge pay checks and sit comfortably without accountability. I, as a prospective upcoming teacher, will have to work for much less than that and will likely never get raises up to that amount.
50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really, and having the responsibility of being a professor at a university... do you really think so? I know people who make much more doing much less important work.
So what? The market pays what the market pays. Who are you to decide how much professors teaching marginal students useless subjects are worth? A lot of people have been sold a big bunch of bullshit that a college degree confers any utility at all. For most people all it confers is a dubious credential that they wasted 4 years of their lives and great sums of money to attain. They never should have attended in the first place and should have gone to work learning something useful. Like plumbing. As opposed to the endless parade of useless social "science" and art history degree holders.
Amid all those social science degrees you might actually find some useful degrees. Some consider education the backbone of our economy. In fact most people unemployed in these hard times don't have a college education. Fuck education, Lets just become plumbers. Fuck the internet and technology too.
Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 12:05 PM)
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Rebirtha
I really like bread




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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
#13995286 - 02/20/11 12:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
50k a year is not much money for a masters degree really
I hear that all the time, usually from people who dont have masters degrees. 
I'm just going off statistics.. $62,300 is the average for those with a masters. And by the way I have a masters degree
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
#13995338 - 02/20/11 12:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Man, I need to find out where they are getting those statistics.
In any case, I believe those high wage earners are doing so because of their ability. The master's degree is fairly incidental.
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Rebirtha
I really like bread




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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
#13995342 - 02/20/11 12:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Rebirtha
I really like bread




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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
#13995360 - 02/20/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Man, I need to find out where they are getting those statistics.
In any case, I believe those high wage earners are doing so because of their ability. The master's degree is fairly incidental.
Either way that is the average..and what the market deems to be the price.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
#13995362 - 02/20/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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No, I want to find out where they got them geographically.
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Rebirtha
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
#13995380 - 02/20/11 12:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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By state
http://bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcst.htm
By the way zappa, you'll see that teachers of things like physical education get paid substantially less than other more important areas.
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zappaisgod
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
#13995395 - 02/20/11 12:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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[quote][b][i]Rebirtha said:[/i][/b]
Amid all those social science degrees you might actually find some useful degrees. Some consider education the backbone of our economy. In fact most people unemployed in these hard times don't have a college education. Fuck education, Lets just become plumbers. Fuck the internet and technology too. [/quote]
Yeah, there is some useful education. At no time did I say they were all useless. What I did say was that we have been sold a huge bill of goods that any education is good education, a sound investment and a guarantee of a quality life. It has led to credential inflation. It is all a bunch of crap foisted upon us by the education industry. What is the percentage of Community college students who even graduate? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704448304575196292433734212.html Less than half. A complete waste of time. Then there are the so called 4 year degree programs: http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/college_bound/2011/02/college_enrollment_up_this_year_especially_at_for-profits.html [quote]However, even when you allow students six years to get a degree, graduation rates have remained flat. This year's report reflects a 57 percent graduation rate for students at four-year colleges. In the 2008 report, it was 56 percent and the year before 57 percent. Success does vary by the type of school.
Here's the breakdown of the six-year graduation rates for cohorts followed from 2003 until fall 2009:
•Private, nonprofit four-year schools: 65 percent •Public four-year institutions: 56 percent •For-profits, four-year sector: 20 percent •For-profit, two-year degree programs: 60 percent •Public two-year community colleges: 22 percent[/quote]
6 years and still a shitty rate. Clearly many many of these people have no fucking business taking up classroom space. All they are succeeding in doing is inflating the cost and diminishing the quality of higher education.
Don't even get me started on the grotesque number of newly hatched lawyers who can't find jobs...
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
#13995432 - 02/20/11 12:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rebirtha said:
Amid all those social science degrees you might actually find some useful degrees. Some consider education the backbone of our economy. In fact most people unemployed in these hard times don't have a college education. Fuck education, Lets just become plumbers. Fuck the internet and technology too.
Yeah, there is some useful education. At no time did I say they were all useless. What I did say was that we have been sold a huge bill of goods that any education is good education, a sound investment and a guarantee of a quality life. It has led to credential inflation. It is all a bunch of crap foisted upon us by the education industry. What is the percentage of Community college students who even graduate? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704448304575196292433734212.html Less than half. A complete waste of time. Then there are the so called 4 year degree programs: http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/college_bound/2011/02/college_enrollment_up_this_year_especially_at_for-profits.html
Quote:
However, even when you allow students six years to get a degree, graduation rates have remained flat. This year's report reflects a 57 percent graduation rate for students at four-year colleges. In the 2008 report, it was 56 percent and the year before 57 percent. Success does vary by the type of school.
Here's the breakdown of the six-year graduation rates for cohorts followed from 2003 until fall 2009:
•Private, nonprofit four-year schools: 65 percent •Public four-year institutions: 56 percent •For-profits, four-year sector: 20 percent •For-profit, two-year degree programs: 60 percent •Public two-year community colleges: 22 percent
6 years and still a shitty rate. Clearly many many of these people have no fucking business taking up classroom space. All they are succeeding in doing is inflating the cost and diminishing the quality of higher education.
Don't even get me started on the grotesque number of newly hatched lawyers who can't find jobs...
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