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InvisibleMe_Roy
Stranger
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13985906 - 02/18/11 05:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't forgotten.  Decent pensions and good health insurance. Yep, WI teachers receive both those things, as every person should.

Again, I think it would be fair to have them pay more into each of those benefits.  I still see no reason to take away the collective bargaining rights.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13986233 - 02/18/11 06:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
For decades now public sector unions have organized members and spent vast sums, yea sometimes against member wishes, to get politicians elected who are favorable to public sector unions.  The problem is that these politicians who are bought and paid for by unions are supposed to be representing the public side of the table against the unions in negotiations.  How the fuck did that happen?  Consider that public sector unions represent maybe 5% of all workers in a state.  But they manage to get 50% of the politicians beholden to them.




in right-wing math..14/33 is 50%...the problem is that at least 17 of the remaining 19/33 who are bought and paid for by the koch bros are supposed to be representing the public against the koch bros...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13986308 - 02/18/11 07:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
For decades now public sector unions have organized members and spent vast sums, yea sometimes against member wishes, to get politicians elected who are favorable to public sector unions.  The problem is that these politicians who are bought and paid for by unions are supposed to be representing the public side of the table against the unions in negotiations.  How the fuck did that happen?  Consider that public sector unions represent maybe 5% of all workers in a state.  But they manage to get 50% of the politicians beholden to them.




in right-wing math..14/33 is 50%...the problem is that at least 17 of the remaining 19/33 who are bought and paid for by the koch bros are supposed to be representing the public against the koch bros...



Dunno.  I'll try to figure this out later.  It's either brilliant in a Joycean manner or fullout bull goose Looney in a Keseyian manner


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Invisiblesetb
10th level beer nerd

Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13988026 - 02/19/11 12:21 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The people are not with the unions on this. In fact the unions are defying the people and their wishes. The unions are acting like bullies and people see that.

Edited by setb (02/19/11 12:27 AM)

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13988782 - 02/19/11 05:17 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

In WI the average teacher's salary is just under 50, average experience is right around 15 years.  I don't think it at all unreasonable for someone to expect 50 thousand/year after going to college and working in their field for 15 years.




Don't forget to factor in the two weeks off at Christmas, the week off for spring break, and the three months off for summer.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinesnitchelpowerz37
broke
Male

Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 251
Last seen: 3 years, 20 days
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13989518 - 02/19/11 11:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Do you honestly think that the only time a teacher is doing their kob is when they are in a classroom?  Where I am from, teachers typically get a week of meetings and other administrative type things to do when the students are off.  Not to mention the countless hours that can go into lesson planning.  Obviously, this is not true for all teachers but there is a lot more time/work spent behind the scenes.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: setb]
    #13989601 - 02/19/11 11:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

setb said:
Quote:


The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The people are not with the unions on this. In fact the unions are defying the people and their wishes. The unions are acting like bullies and people see that.





http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/BSW_POLL_PRESS_RELEASE_FEB_17___2011.pdf


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleMe_Roy
Stranger
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13989831 - 02/19/11 12:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

http://weaskamerica.com/2011/02/18/weirdness-in-wisconsin/

I'm not certain if this is the same poll, and I don't have the time to compare results and see, but this, too, refutes sethb's unsubstantiated claim re: what 'the people' want and the results are much easier to read at a glance.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13990328 - 02/19/11 02:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
I don't think it at all unreasonable for someone to expect 50 thousand/year after going to college and working in their field for 15 years.





I dont think it's unreasonable for someone out of college to make $50k/yr,
what I do find unreasonable is that I'm being held hostage with some of these
tenured teachers making $75k+ and expecting huge pensions and keeping the
benefits all at my expense

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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13991947 - 02/19/11 08:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
A couple of months ago, it looked like Wisconsin was on-track for a modest budget surplus.  Scott Walker took office and, among other things, offered corporate tax breaks totaling 100+ million, about the amount of current projected budget deficit.  Of course, teachers' benefits and corporate taxes aren't the only two factors in play -- I mean to point out that this deficit is the product of (inherently political) decisions. 




This is just not true.

As a voting Wisconite concerned with the state of the State's budget, I can assure you that the budget deficit for this fiscal year is over $200 million dollars, and was hovering around this area long before Walker came to office.  The tax cuts on business that he's passed so far are so low as to be virtually inconsequential in terms of the budget deficit.

It should also be noted that while the current budget deficit is around the $200 million that I mentioned earlier, this number is expected to rise drastically in the following years as certain Obama-administration funding periods expire.  The next budget is expected to be close to $3 BILLION dollars om the red.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineSmackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 575
Last seen: 4 months, 6 days
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13993181 - 02/19/11 11:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The proposal limits raises to inflation, which means no real dollar increase from year to year.  A new teacher in WI makes an average of 29k plus benefits.  If this law goes into effect, then after 30 years of working the teacher will retire making the real dollar equivalent of 29k a year.  No one will wish to be a teacher in WI if this bill passes.  Just another Republican job killing bill.


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The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Offlinenanomagnetic
cascadian
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Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 218
Loc: The Rose City Flag
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13994006 - 02/20/11 02:26 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

grade school teachers are not tenured...

:facepalm:


--------------------
Being an ant is the worst mindfuck ever. They can never hold on to any memories, or come up with any real ideas, or even understand what the fuck is going on, ever.

The Century of the Self: Happiness Machines; The Engineering of Consent; There's a Policeman Inside All Our Heads, He Must be Destroyed; Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time. ~carl sagan

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: snitchelpowerz37]
    #13994207 - 02/20/11 04:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> Do you honestly think that the only time a teacher is doing their kob is when they are in a classroom?

My mother was an special education teacher when I was growing up.  I know what their job is like better than most.  I know she did a lot of work out of the classroom, preparing lessons plans, grading papers, etc.  I also know that she didn't do any (school) work at all over the summer or during Christmas and Spring Break.

> grade school teachers are not tenured...

They don't need tenure if they are in a union.  The union provides much better protection than tenure ever could.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13994752 - 02/20/11 09:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There is zero reason whatsoever for any primary or secondary school teacher to be tenured.  Tenure was enacted to protect college professors from the consequences of unpopular research.  There is no research involved for the union teachers being discussed.  It is improper job protectionism.  Why should they have greater job protection than any other work force?

The entire notion of public employee unions is absurd, as even that fuckhead FDR realized.  When public employees unions comprise such a  huge voting bloc that they can effectively determine the makeup of the management side of labor negotiations they have perverted the entire nature of negotiation.  They are negotiating with hand picked lap dogs to the detriment of less organized voters.  Well now enough people from that less organized but much larger group have said, "ENOUGH!"  Democracy.  There is nothing wrong with the unions holding protests.  What is wrong is the disgraceful behavior of the Dem legislators who have abdicated their responsibility to debate and vote the matters of the people.  Also disgraceful is the teachers who have essentially called a wildcat strike and are lying to get days off by claiming sick.  The paying customers are being harmed by this fraudulent action.  Also participating in this fraud are various "doctors" who have set up booths to sign false sick notes.


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OfflineRebirtha
I really like bread
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/22/03
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13994838 - 02/20/11 10:18 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I always get attacked in here so if you are going to reply to me try to use some tactful language and maybe we can have a normal conversation. I love how everybody against unions acts like teachers have it so good. My mom was a teacher for 15 years and every year got worse and worse and that is with unions. The teachers would get more and more students per classroom, more unpaid furlough days, and more and more papers responsibilities. My mom worked 60+ hours a week and barely made of 40k a year.  She was forced to work summer school there to keep up with cost of living. She quit this year in the middle of the year after more furlough days were announced. I also have two other friends who are teachers who quit recently for the same reasons. I can't even imagine how shitty it will be when they have less rights. They also stopped giving the normal pay raises so pay isn't even keeping up with inflation.

I do agree that Unions can become too powerful, but its silly to ignore the obvious deserved benefits of the union. If you want to look at a bad union look at GM for instance... now look at Honda's union...  not all unions are bad, just out of control ones.. trust me teachers do not have it good and zappa it is not 'easy work'. You are bashing these teachers for taking sick time to protest. If you had any idea how important the few sick days teachers get a year, you would understand how bad it has gotten in public schools, and why teachers are willing to use their sick days to stand up for their rights. I'm not for overly powerful unions, and this is a poweful union, but teachers still have it pretty shitty. I have volunteered at a couple high schools recently and hear the same thing.. No yearly pay raise to keep with inflation as the fed prints more? More furlough days... more students per classroom.. .

Edited by Rebirtha (02/20/11 10:28 AM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995029 - 02/20/11 11:05 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/21/16 01:42 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995039 - 02/20/11 11:08 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

1.  Sick days are for when you are sick.  This en masse "sick-out" is a wild cat strike.  Consider the effect this has on the parents of the children who have no school. 

2.  Your mother is 100% irrelevant.  I assume she isn't a current Wisconsin teacher.
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=24855

Quote:

Just a little by way of facts on WI teachers; this spreadsheet covers the average salary and average fringe of classroom teachers. Copy, paste and a little autosumming on my own Excel spreadsheet and what we find is that the average Sacrificing.For.The.Public.Good teacher in WI, ditching school to protest holding Walker=Hitler signs, Egyptian flags, and generally behaving badly, is compensated $74,843.55/year.

Not shabby for 9-10 months of work, eh?

The administrative salary spreadsheet presented data a bit differently, but here’s how the numbers crunched: Average pro-rated administrative compensation (salary + fringe) is $107,256.57 for 235.82 days of employment.

Nice gig.





Links can be accessed through the above link.

3.  As of right now the general population is at least 5% less employed right now than they were two years ago.  The general population has thus experienced a loss of income at least 5%.  From what I have read that is a bigger loss than these fucking teachers are being asked to take.

4.  My point about public sector unions as an abomination remains.  When both side of the negotiating table are occupied by union toadies the public is in for a fleecing.  The people of Wisconsin have spoken and they are fucking sick of it.


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995053 - 02/20/11 11:12 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Professors are paid decently because education is the backbone of our economy, and teaching at a college level is very difficult.  By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: DieCommie]
    #13995055 - 02/20/11 11:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
But teacher's performance (and Im talking in general, not about your mom) is abysmal.  We pay more for education than any other country, and yet we under-perform other countries that spend less than us.  Public teachers, by and large, are not good at their job.  If they think they deserve a raise, they need to perform better.  Otherwise, if they are just going to be glorified babysitters, then I think making 40k is more than enough.





There is also that.  For decades we have been told that we need to pay teachers more to attract better quality teachers.  They are more educated than ever.  WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN ANY IMPROVEMENT IN PERFORMANCE AT ALL.  Throwing money at teachers has done nothing to improve student performance, nor has increased credential requirements.  And then there is the issue of the difficulty in getting rid of undoubtedly shit teachers.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #13995062 - 02/20/11 11:15 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
We spend more on education than most countries, with poor results. I don't think this is because of teachers. We lower our standards to get more funding ie. No Child Left Behind or the Head Start programs. You would be wrong if you think the money is going directly to teachers. Also if you expect to work at a community college you are going to need at least a masters, which puts most people in debt. Teachers and professors decently because education is the backbone of our economy. By the way if you are working as a professor at a community college you can expect to make over 60k a year.



Did you see what I posted above?  The average WI teacher gets $75K.  NOT community college professors.  If the average for these teachers was $60,000 there wouldn't be a problem.


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