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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
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illinois beats wisconsin...
    #13979959 - 02/17/11 05:02 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

IL raises taxes on the wealthy...
WI goes broke and blames it on unions...

tragically..the repugs will prevail in WI...beyond that..im betting my money on illinois...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1] * 1
    #13980155 - 02/17/11 05:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Unfortunately, laws that protect unions are to blame for a lot of the mess the country is in.  So are bad business practices.  So is out of control spending by Congress.  So are tax laws the encourage people and companies to invest outside of the US.  So are tax loopholes.  So are overbearing regulations.

Rather than taking a partisan stand and bitching, why not look at the bigger picture and offer some suggestions to fix it.  The bigger picture would be the one where you drop the partisan BS and recognize that there is plenty of blame to spread around.  Of course, what would I know... just a corporate shill.  :rolleyes:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13981365 - 02/17/11 09:11 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Rather than taking a partisan stand and bitching, why not look at the bigger picture and offer some suggestions to fix it.  The bigger picture would be the one where you drop the partisan BS and recognize that there is plenty of blame to spread around.




:yesnod:


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Invisiblezorbman
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13981874 - 02/17/11 10:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What was the spread?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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InvisibleMe_Roy
Stranger
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zorbman]
    #13982187 - 02/17/11 11:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Wisconsin teachers get great health care and decent pensions. None of them are rolling in dough.  None of that is anything they should be ashamed of.  We should all have health insurance of that quality.  And without throwing teachers that bone, how else are you going to attract talented people to the profession?  There's 0 chance of becoming wealthy as a teacher -- do they not deserve the dignity of middle-class status and security in knowing that they won't go bankrupt because of health problems?  Why else should one go to college to make, what, 30 grand upon graduation? ...and the pay scale is none too steep, either.  Average salaries hover around 50. 

A couple of months ago, it looked like Wisconsin was on-track for a modest budget surplus.  Scott Walker took office and, among other things, offered corporate tax breaks totaling 100+ million, about the amount of current projected budget deficit.  Of course, teachers' benefits and corporate taxes aren't the only two factors in play -- I mean to point out that this deficit is the product of (inherently political) decisions. 

I think it's reasonable to ask teachers and other public workers to contribute more to their pensions and health plans.  This would be worthy of serious negotiation.  But busting the unions and destroying their ability to collectively negotiate through a top-down decree is a raw deal of the kind that merits a state assembly in exile and a state capital full of protesters.  This is the only way that dissenting voices will be heard.

Scott Walker is a union-buster.  Bust the unions and the right wing has no competition for major campaign donations.  This is an overtly partisan political move by Scott Walker -- not an apolitical, fiscal one.  That's why it merits a political response.  There is no other appropriate response.  If supporting the unions means taking sides in the polarized D vs. R battle, so be it.  Walker's salvo is too extreme to elicit complacency.




Edited by Me_Roy (02/17/11 11:52 PM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zorbman]
    #13982426 - 02/17/11 11:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
What was the spread?




~8000 votes in favour of pat quinn(D) over bill brady(R) for IL governor...had it gone the other way..we might have had madison playing out in springfield.. with both states swapping their absentee senators...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13983125 - 02/18/11 03:52 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

> their absentee senators...

Speaking of absentee senators, these gems are beyond belief:

State Senator Mark Miller:
Quote:

we are in what we consider a secure location outside the capital. We are not all in one place at this time.




What?  Is there some conspiracy to kill all of them?  Are they in mortal danger?  Were they forced to flee for their lives?  But wait, it gets better:

Quote:

[by leaving we are] trying to allow an opportunity for democracy to work.



Juxtaposed with:
Quote:

We demand that the provisions that completely eliminate the ability of workers… to negotiate on a fair basis with their employers be removed from the budget repair bill and any other future budget.




Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands. 

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.  The Alex Jones twist only makes them appear that much more delusional.


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Offlinejimbotron
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Registered: 02/24/09
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Seuss]
    #13983523 - 02/18/11 08:53 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




Tell it to Mitch McConnell. Unfuckingbelievable. Were you born without shame, or did you lose it?

Quote:

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.




The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: jimbotron]
    #13983678 - 02/18/11 09:36 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




Tell it to Mitch McConnell. Unfuckingbelievable. Were you born without shame, or did you lose it?




What are you babbling about?  These Dem senators are abdicating the job they were hired to do, just like the teachers who are falsely and fraudulently calling in sick.  They should be fired.

Just for your edification democracy is doing what the people elected you to do within the structure of the laws the people have determined.  There is a reason why the people of Wisconsin elected Republicans.  It was to do this.
Quote:



Quote:

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.




The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The unions are not the people.  In fact, the public sector unions have been bribing politicians to fuck the people for decades.  The people having spoken through the ballot say FUCK UNION SCUM.  Did you know that if the greedy teachers didn't demand so much money for each of themselves the state could hire more teachers and have more and better educational facilities?  It's true.  The greedy shitfucks don't give two tenths of a shit about the children.  If they did they wouldn't oppose charter schools and school choice.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13984395 - 02/18/11 12:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




what compromise??...if the repugs have 17 votes out of 33 in WI.. then its their way or the the highway...the democrats wisely chose the highway...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleMe_Roy
Stranger
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #13984451 - 02/18/11 12:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




Tell it to Mitch McConnell. Unfuckingbelievable. Were you born without shame, or did you lose it?




What are you babbling about?  These Dem senators are abdicating the job they were hired to do, just like the teachers who are falsely and fraudulently calling in sick.  They should be fired.

Just for your edification democracy is doing what the people elected you to do within the structure of the laws the people have determined.  There is a reason why the people of Wisconsin elected Republicans.  It was to do this.
Quote:



Quote:

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.




The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The unions are not the people.  In fact, the public sector unions have been bribing politicians to fuck the people for decades.  The people having spoken through the ballot say FUCK UNION SCUM.  Did you know that if the greedy teachers didn't demand so much money for each of themselves the state could hire more teachers and have more and better educational facilities?  It's true.  The greedy shitfucks don't give two tenths of a shit about the children.  If they did they wouldn't oppose charter schools and school choice.




What are teachers asking for that makes them 'greedy shitfucks'?  Teachers go to college for two to four years, most likely incurring some debt, in order to make not much more than 25,000 their first year.  Average salaries are around 50,000.  Teachers with Ph.D.s or Masters + 10 (maximum coursework without writing a dissertation) might crack 60 or 70, but I'd doubt any hit 80.  And at this point they're piling on administrative responsibilities that push their workweek well over 40/week, nullifying the benefit of summer break.

I've heard of Wisconsin school superintendents making 120-ish and, indeed, that might be too much.  But that's one person per school district.

This is a job that requires both the expense and time of higher education and the patience to deal with a room of 20-30 kids.

Unions can work against the greater good.  I've heard first-hand stories of corrupt teamsters, for example.  But how else are workers to represent their interests?  A single voice has little power.  I see no shame in collective negotiation.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #13984452 - 02/18/11 12:33 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




what compromise??...if the repugs have 17 votes out of 33 in WI.. then its their way or the the highway...the democrats wisely chose the highway...



Actually they have more than 17 out of 33, they have 19, as you well know.  And no, they do not have to compromise with bribed union hacks against the will of the people.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13984524 - 02/18/11 12:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

jimbotron said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




Tell it to Mitch McConnell. Unfuckingbelievable. Were you born without shame, or did you lose it?




What are you babbling about?  These Dem senators are abdicating the job they were hired to do, just like the teachers who are falsely and fraudulently calling in sick.  They should be fired.

Just for your edification democracy is doing what the people elected you to do within the structure of the laws the people have determined.  There is a reason why the people of Wisconsin elected Republicans.  It was to do this.
Quote:



Quote:

This will not end well for the Democrats.  They look like little children throwing a temper tantrum.  A small handful of voters will see them as champions, but most voters will become very annoyed when the state shuts down because the Democrats refuse to pass a budget.




The current budget lasts until June. They've got all the time in the world. Meanwhile, the protests are growing every day.

The Governor will cave and the people will win. Sorry to disappoint you.




The unions are not the people.  In fact, the public sector unions have been bribing politicians to fuck the people for decades.  The people having spoken through the ballot say FUCK UNION SCUM.  Did you know that if the greedy teachers didn't demand so much money for each of themselves the state could hire more teachers and have more and better educational facilities?  It's true.  The greedy shitfucks don't give two tenths of a shit about the children.  If they did they wouldn't oppose charter schools and school choice.




What are teachers asking for that makes them 'greedy shitfucks'?  Teachers go to college for two to four years, most likely incurring some debt, in order to make not much more than 25,000 their first year.  Average salaries are around 50,000.  Teachers with Ph.D.s or Masters + 10 (maximum coursework without writing a dissertation) might crack 60 or 70, but I'd doubt any hit 80.  And at this point they're piling on administrative responsibilities that push their workweek well over 40/week, nullifying the benefit of summer break.

I've heard of Wisconsin school superintendents making 120-ish and, indeed, that might be too much.  But that's one person per school district.

This is a job that requires both the expense and time of higher education and the patience to deal with a room of 20-30 kids.

Unions can work against the greater good.  I've heard first-hand stories of corrupt teamsters, for example.  But how else are workers to represent their interests?  A single voice has little power.  I see no shame in collective negotiation.



I have a novel idea.  The state posts the wage and benefits and they screen the people who apply for the jobs.  If they don't get enough applicants they raise the offer.  I see zero requirements for collective bargaining, especially when you consider that there are numerous school districts even within a state.  Did you know that private school teachers are typically paid much less but out perform their state employee union brethren.

I don't give a fuck how much it costs to get a degree in education or how hard people think the job is.  It isn't that fucking hard.  And finally I will leave you with this nugget:

For decades now public sector unions have organized members and spent vast sums, yea sometimes against member wishes, to get politicians elected who are favorable to public sector unions.  The problem is that these politicians who are bought and paid for by unions are supposed to be representing the public side of the table against the unions in negotiations.  How the fuck did that happen?  Consider that public sector unions represent maybe 5% of all workers in a state.  But they manage to get 50% of the politicians beholden to them.  This results in a total corruption of the marketplace.  Wisconsin is reversing that trend BY THE WILL OF THE REST OF THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE!  There is no natural right or Constitutional right for public employees to be in a union.  That was something invented by bought legislatures and the people didn't really mind until
1.  The unions got too greedy
2.  The people ran out of money

Why should every other sector of the American economy get hammered while public sector union employees get protected at their expense?  Fuck.  That.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13984590 - 02/18/11 01:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It's true that teachers' unions have significant political swing.  The NEA (National Educators' Association) is one of the U.S.'s top 10 campaign contributors, hanging out somewhere around #5, I think.  Your point about their influence in electing the people with whom they'll negotiate is interesting and well-taken, but I think it's an exaggeration to then claim that they have undue influence as a result. It's not like politicians then consider only their wishes

Why shouldn't educators have collective political say?  Businesses sure do.  There are all sorts of industry-specific lobbies, plus Karl Rove's organizations that accumulate and deploy wealth from those allied with their political interests. What's wrong with workers being able to represent their interests alongside wealthy and influential individuals and business interests?  IMHO, there should be far, far more of this, not less.

What evidence so you have that teachers are greedy?  What do they get that they don't deserve?  Again, I think it's reasonable to ask for a moderate increase in their contributions to pensions and health plans.  I think that it needs to be easier to get rid of bad teachers. Superintendents could be taken down a notch. All this should be on the table.  The right to collectively bargain is something else entirely.

How can you be so certain that teaching is easy? Standing in a room with the little brats might be tolerable, but making their time productive is a little more challenging.  Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, but it doesn't sound like you're speaking from experience.

Edited by Me_Roy (02/18/11 01:05 PM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13985265 - 02/18/11 03:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Apparently Mark doesn't quite understand the meaning of Democracy.  Compromise is not running away, holding the states budget hostage, while making demands.




what compromise??...if the repugs have 17 votes out of 33 in WI.. then its their way or the the highway...the democrats wisely chose the highway...



Actually they have more than 17 out of 33, they have 19, as you well know.  And no, they do not have to compromise with bribed union hacks against the will of the people.




the repugs have 19 *seats*.. but two of them arent bribed koch bros hacks..leaving a net of 17 votes.. which doesnt make any difference...and if thats really what the ppl of wisconsin want.. then "cheesehead" is an insult to cheese everywhere...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13985440 - 02/18/11 03:55 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
It's true that teachers' unions have significant political swing.  The NEA (National Educators' Association) is one of the U.S.'s top 10 campaign contributors, hanging out somewhere around #5, I think.  Your point about their influence in electing the people with whom they'll negotiate is interesting and well-taken, but I think it's an exaggeration to then claim that they have undue influence as a result. It's not like politicians then consider only their wishes

Why shouldn't educators have collective political say?  Businesses sure do.  There are all sorts of industry-specific lobbies, plus Karl Rove's organizations that accumulate and deploy wealth from those allied with their political interests. What's wrong with workers being able to represent their interests alongside wealthy and influential individuals and business interests?  IMHO, there should be far, far more of this, not less.

What evidence so you have that teachers are greedy?  What do they get that they don't deserve?  Again, I think it's reasonable to ask for a moderate increase in their contributions to pensions and health plans.  I think that it needs to be easier to get rid of bad teachers. Superintendents could be taken down a notch. All this should be on the table.  The right to collectively bargain is something else entirely.

How can you be so certain that teaching is easy? Standing in a room with the little brats might be tolerable, but making their time productive is a little more challenging.  Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, but it doesn't sound like you're speaking from experience.




How do I know it's easy?  Everybody I know who went into teaching was a mediocrity, that's how.  Why do I think they are greedy?  Because all they ever do is talk about giving themselves more money. 

Make no mistake I do not intend to single out teacher unions.  I don't think there should be ANY public sector unions.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13985451 - 02/18/11 03:57 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

How do I know it's easy?  Everybody I know who went into teaching was a mediocrity, that's how.




Awww, that hurts... I would love to be a teacher.  Seriously, that is such a cake job.  Oh....

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13985733 - 02/18/11 05:08 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
What are teachers asking for that makes them 'greedy shitfucks'?  Teachers go to college for two to four years, most likely incurring some debt, in order to make not much more than 25,000 their first year.  Average salaries are around 50,000.  Teachers with Ph.D.s or Masters + 10 (maximum coursework without writing a dissertation) might crack 60 or 70, but I'd doubt any hit 80.  And at this point they're piling on administrative responsibilities that push their workweek well over 40/week, nullifying the benefit of summer break.

I've heard of Wisconsin school superintendents making 120-ish and, indeed, that might be too much.  But that's one person per school district.




I'm in rural Ga, the school principal at the elementary school is pulling
$120k/yr, the average salary is $55k/yr, the lowest pay is bus drivers
that work 4hrs per day and reap full benefits at $15k/yr... all this was
posted online on the BoE website

this is nearly double the average pay in the county

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InvisibleMe_Roy
Stranger
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13985875 - 02/18/11 05:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

According to the 2000 U.S. census, average earnings with a  B.A. is $52,200.  Average with a M.A. is $62,300.  Some teachers have M.A.s and Ph.D.s

120 for an elementary principle sounds very steep to me.

4 hrs./day for 15k/yr. and full benefits also sounds like an all-too-sweet deal.

In WI the average teacher's salary is just under 50, average experience is right around 15 years.  I don't think it at all unreasonable for someone to expect 50 thousand/year after going to college and working in their field for 15 years.

Edited by Me_Roy (02/18/11 05:46 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: illinois beats wisconsin... [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13985887 - 02/18/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You forget the giant bennies.


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