|
Shroomerette
Stranger
Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice.
#13975465 - 02/16/11 07:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Hi I'm looking for some help with training my 12 week old lab mix puppy, anyone think they might be able to help?
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
|
RipVanWinkle
The Benzodiazethang




Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 4,700
Loc: Near Memphrica, TN
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975493 - 02/16/11 07:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Possibly, dogs being my area of expertise 
What you tryin to do with it?
-------------------- Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.
|
auxiliary
Mr.



Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 2,278
Loc: Thatoneville
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: RipVanWinkle]
#13975500 - 02/16/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
They're great dogs, I had two of them, but people should start boycotting labs. They're retarded. Do like a natrual selection thing going
--------------------
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975515 - 02/16/11 07:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shroomerette said: Hi I'm looking for some help with training my 12 week old lab mix puppy, anyone think they might be able to help?
My #1 training tip for most people (Stolen from the dog whisperer, Cesar Millan) is to walk your dog frequently, and VERY IMPORTANT- make your dog heel when you walk it. Like 1/2 step behind your steps. Seems like a simple silly thing, but it help eliminate a lot of dominance issues. Dogs often get confused because walking in front of the pack shows dominance. Then they get confused when they aren't allowed to be.
Crate training can be a great puppy tool too. I'm no expert on it though.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
|
Shroomerette
Stranger
Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: auxiliary]
#13975544 - 02/16/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
OK I'm glad someone knows something bout training . We got him for free from someone giving away mutt puppies, we think he might be a lab/boxer mix because of the way his siblings look but we know his mom was a chocolate lab and he mostly looks like a chocolate lab.
I've been doing several sessions of clicker training everyday for a while, and he does really good during the lessons. He knows sit, lay, shake, turn around, and touch.
Problems: 1) He won't listen to me if I don't have treats or he's not hungry. 2) On walks he will not listen to me at all or even look at me when I say his name, even if I do have treats. 3) He bites a lot when he gets energetic. He bites pants legs, hands and arms, ALWAYS attacks my shoelaces when I'm walking around, and he attacks my ponytail whenever he gets in range of it.
Those are the major problems, any advice?
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975565 - 02/16/11 07:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shroomerette said: OK I'm glad someone knows something bout training . We got him for free from someone giving away mutt puppies, we think he might be a lab/boxer mix because of the way his siblings look but we know his mom was a chocolate lab and he mostly looks like a chocolate lab.
I've been doing several sessions of clicker training everyday for a while, and he does really good during the lessons. He knows sit, lay, shake, turn around, and touch.
Problems: 1) He won't listen to me if I don't have treats or he's not hungry. 2) On walks he will not listen to me at all or even look at me when I say his name, even if I do have treats. 3) He bites a lot when he gets energetic. He bites pants legs, hands and arms, ALWAYS attacks my shoelaces when I'm walking around, and he attacks my ponytail whenever he gets in range of it.
Those are the major problems, any advice?
sounds a lot like a puppy. Most of these problems should mellow with age. Like I was saying-walking while forcing to heel is important. I don't like to rely too much on treats. Try to gear rewards more towards affection IMO. The biting could be a dominance thing, or could become one over time. When my dog was a pup, if he bit me, I would kinda force my hand further back in his mouth to the point of being uncomfortable (not painful). Seemed to work quite well. If it gets to like chewing on stuff, I would use bitter apple spray.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
Edited by nicechrisman (02/16/11 07:58 PM)
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975600 - 02/16/11 08:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shroomerette said: Problems: 1) He won't listen to me if I don't have treats or he's not hungry.
start with positive reinforcement at home, wean him off the treats
Quote:
2) On walks he will not listen to me at all or even look at me when I say his name, even if I do have treats.
the earlier comment about making the dog heel, very solid advice in this instance
Quote:
3) He bites a lot when he gets energetic. He bites pants legs, hands and arms, ALWAYS attacks my shoelaces when I'm walking around, and he attacks my ponytail whenever he gets in range of it.
normal puppy behavior, he needs some play time but you have to designate what's appropriate
|
Shroomerette
Stranger
Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: nicechrisman]
#13975617 - 02/16/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I've tried that bite remedy but he has crazy jaw strength, he just bites harder and his back teeth feel like saw blades. Any other suggestions to stop the biting? That's really the biggest problem I have with his behavior right now. I'm going to work on heel, hopefully that will calm him down some.
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975623 - 02/16/11 08:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
My first suggestion is to enroll in quality, professional dog training. Spending a couple hundred bucks now will be a great investment in the next decade you have with the dog.
I dont like treats really, especially not as bribery for good behavior. American dogs, like Americans, are prone to unhealthy over-eating and I think using treats as a reward re-enforces an addiction to food.
On walks, you should use a choker when they are old enough. You usually dont want to walk your dog until they have finished the initial parvo vaccine sequence. That depends a bit on where you live though. On walks, use the choker - say heel and if the dog get ahead yank back. Do it every time the dog gets ahead.
As for biting, you should immediately stop playing with the dog if it bites. You may want to smack it on the nose and yelp, but most importantly just get up and walk away. If the dog bites, it gets no more play time. Do that every time.
Among the dog trainers, breeders and shelter workers I have meet - one book gets recommended most - "Mother knows best". Its a little old, but I believe it is the standard go to book within the pet dog training community.
|
Shroomerette
Stranger
Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975626 - 02/16/11 08:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Also, when I try to divert him from chewing on people by giving him chew toys he will take the toy and play with it by someones foot, and then he'll migrate to chewing on the foot. It's pretty annoying.
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975629 - 02/16/11 08:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shroomerette said: I've tried that bite remedy but he has crazy jaw strength, he just bites harder and his back teeth feel like saw blades. Any other suggestions to stop the biting? That's really the biggest problem I have with his behavior right now. I'm going to work on heel, hopefully that will calm him down some.
Get him plenty of toys he can tear up. Probably teething. Like pris said, designate times and places when this behavior is ok, but make sure he always has SAFE toys available to chew on.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975636 - 02/16/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Shroomerette said: Also, when I try to divert him from chewing on people by giving him chew toys he will take the toy and play with it by someones foot, and then he'll migrate to chewing on the foot. It's pretty annoying.
Try using a bitter apple type spray. When it chews on something its not allowed to do - pull it away, spray the object and give it a toy it can chew. 12 weeks seems a little early for teething, so it may get worse - all the more reason to train it what it can and cant chew now.
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: nicechrisman]
#13975642 - 02/16/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I would recommend the book "Cesar's Way" by Cesar Millan. He goes a lot into dog psychology and pack psychology and stuff, but in a laymans way that is easy to follow.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
|
Shroomerette
Stranger
Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: DieCommie]
#13975662 - 02/16/11 08:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said: My first suggestion is to enroll in quality, professional dog training. Spending a couple hundred bucks now will be a great investment in the next decade you have with the dog.
I dont like treats really, especially not as bribery for good behavior. American dogs, like Americans, are prone to unhealthy over-eating and I think using treats as a reward re-enforces an addiction to food.
On walks, you should use a choker when they are old enough. You usually dont want to walk your dog until they have finished the initial parvo vaccine sequence. That depends a bit on where you live though. On walks, use the choker - say heel and if the dog get ahead yank back. Do it every time the dog gets ahead.
As for biting, you should immediately stop playing with the dog if it bites. You may want to smack it on the nose and yelp, but most importantly just get up and walk away. If the dog bites, it gets no more play time. Do that every time.
Among the dog trainers, breeders and shelter workers I have meet - one book gets recommended most - "Mother knows best". Its a little old, but I believe it is the standard go to book within the pet dog training community.
Ok thanks for the advice, I would love to get professional dog training but I can't really afford it right now. I will get a choke collar though, that should work. He is pretty good at naturally heeling about half the time so it shouldn't be too hard to get him used to it. I will definitely read that book too.
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
|
RipVanWinkle
The Benzodiazethang




Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 4,700
Loc: Near Memphrica, TN
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975664 - 02/16/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I know some hippy is going to be all "YOU SHOULD ALWAYS USE POSITIVE TRAINING TECHNIQUES, NEVER NEGATIVE!" But to put it bluntly, that is a load of bullshit.
First of all you should make it a rule that the dog never gets attention from you when you first get home. Wait atleast 5 minutes, and then YOU give it attention when YOU'RE ready for it to have it. This is a way of showing you are dominant, and that nipping and biting will not get your attention. If he jumps or nips to try and get your attention before you decide it is an appropriate time for attention, dodge him and ignore him. Don't say no, don't push him, don't touch him, don't acknowledge his existance until he quits trying, and then give him the attention once he's given up and you have decided he can have it. This will help eliminate many problems down the road. I'm not saying never to show the dog attention. I'm saying to just make sure he knows that attention is given on YOUR terms, not on his terms.
As for #1: Don't use treats as a training reward every time you train. Only use treats when you are first teaching them a command. After they understand what the command means, only use physical rewards like ear scratching or belly rubs and verbal praise. Things of that nature. If you deny the attention like I instructed above, this will work much more efficiently.
2. Upward tugs on the leash will help alot. Don't let him off leash until he responds to voice commands. If he ignores you, a sharp upward tug to get his attention should work. Don't let desperation come through. Stay firm and sure of yourself. If you doubt yourself, even in your mind, they will too. Even if you don't physically show it, they know if YOU know you're in command, and if you aren't sure of yourself then they will take this as a sign that they need not rely on you. Confidence, Patience, and Persistence are key in any kind of training. Don't go a single day without working on the issue at hand until it is well understood. Even then, you should still do a "run through" of everything you have taught your dog on a daily basis.
3. Thump their nose and with a firm "no." This is where the hippies start spilling all their "positive training technique" bullshit. For the most part, I agree that you should never resort to punishment to fix your dogs problems. There are some things that require it though. I have had several friends insist that positive training works just as well, but you know what? They still have problems with dogs jumping on their house guests, jumping on furniture, and nipping their hands.
My own puppy was the worst when it came to hand nipping. It does come naturally as a "puppy thing". Just make sure if the dog jumps on you, knee it. Not hard, you aren't trying to inflict pain, just hard enough to shove it away from you. Always accompany this with a firm "no." Don't say "down", as they will attribute that with the command "lay down" if that is the phrase you say to make your dog lay. (Dogs only recognize single syllables btw so multiple-syllable commands are a waste)
When the dogs nips your hands, gently pop them on the nose with the tips of your first 3 fingers. Again, not to inflict change, more to get a "dude wtf?" response. And again, accompany this with a firm "no."
This, along with getting your dog to heel, will more than likely take several weeks to get down pat, if not months. It all depends on the dog, and labs can be very stubborn when it comes to training, so don't get discouraged if it takes a long time. I have a husky, which are incredibly intelligent, yet very independent-minded dogs, and it took me a couple of months to break her of that habit. You just have to be persistent with it, it HAS to be EVERYDAY. And you can't let any frustration show, or it will take your progress back significantly.
First thing you need to do though is condition your dog to accept physical praise as a training reward instead of food treats. And to do that you very well might have to teach him that he only gets attention on your terms and not on his terms. Regardless, the latter is a very important lesson for your dog to learn in the long run (if not THE most important lesson, aside from "come", and will make training of all sorts loads easier.
-------------------- Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.
|
RipVanWinkle
The Benzodiazethang




Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 4,700
Loc: Near Memphrica, TN
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: DieCommie]
#13975675 - 02/16/11 08:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Shroomerette said: Also, when I try to divert him from chewing on people by giving him chew toys he will take the toy and play with it by someones foot, and then he'll migrate to chewing on the foot. It's pretty annoying.
Try using a bitter apple type spray. When it chews on something its not allowed to do - pull it away, spray the object and give it a toy it can chew. 12 weeks seems a little early for teething, so it may get worse - all the more reason to train it what it can and cant chew now.
This is also a good recommendation, but alot of dogs (mine included) don't seem to be bothered by it at all, and it ends up being more of an annoyance to me than it does the dog 
EDIT: Also agree with the choke collar, except don't pull back on it to get him to stop. You should have the leash at a length short enough to where you can pull straight up. Atleast until you can break him of the habit. Pulling straight up is much more effective than pulling back on a leash. And choke collars (or "slip leashes") are almost a given, you're going to need one. One of my dogs was even stubborn enough to need the metal type with the prongs (but make sure the prongs are rubber-tipped)
-------------------- Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.
Edited by RipVanWinkle (02/16/11 08:19 PM)
|
4runner


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 15,406
Loc: State of Jefferson
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Prisoner#1]
#13975677 - 02/16/11 08:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Labs are very energetic. Sometimes wearing down a dog through say throwing a ball or riding a bike with the pup in tow then take em for a walk, it will help focus the little guy a bit.
Also my dog is well trained but i did not do it with treats, for the most part. I kind of started but I did not want him food focused. Don't feed em food scraps, or allow begging. That makes for an obnoxious dog.
Puppies like to bite/mouth things. Make sure he has lots of chew toys. When he bites/nips you make him stop. Learn to see it coming and stop it from happening. My dog would freak out around Canadians... if I say "A" he stops in his tracks. But it is a short sharp A. Not loud just forceful.
I trained my dog, my first one actually and the only thing I ever did was watch some ceaser and read some stuff here http://www.dogforums.com/ Not all of ceasers things are needed. He deals with another kind of animal, those that are close to being put down so you have to pick and choose. I will say though that my roomate came in the other night and was like fuck you did good training him". Mainly because my dog acts way differant out in the front yard with no fence than he does in his own fenced back yard. To the point where if a dog or people are walking by he comes close and sits down. Stuff like that.
Training a dog is not hard once you get a feel for what the pup need. Don't ever deviate from your plan though. Meaning don't let him/her get away with something after you told him/her not to. Stay constant, that really is the best thing.
Walking is mental exercise, throwing a ball is muscle exercise.
Edited by 4runner (02/16/11 08:16 PM)
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: RipVanWinkle]
#13975705 - 02/16/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I agree with Rip for the most part. I agree with not confusing the dog by using similar phrases for different commands, but I completely disagree about the # of syllables that a dog can understand (still good training advice), but my dog is older, and after curing puppy problems, I've always just talked to him and told him what's going on rather than having set commands. He's about 11 now, and he can understand an amazing amount of the human language. He constantly amazed me and friends and family. This is something for down the road though. Doesn't really apply to early training.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
|
Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!



Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,089
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 1 hour, 39 minutes
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975730 - 02/16/11 08:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
LF? Did someone tell you I knew about training dogs? 
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: The Apple-Glass Cyndrome - Someday
|
RipVanWinkle
The Benzodiazethang




Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 4,700
Loc: Near Memphrica, TN
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: nicechrisman]
#13975752 - 02/16/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I think we're misunderstanding each other about the syllable thing. I'm not saying they can't put two and two together, I'm just saying for each action that you want your dog to do, there is a certain syllable that they attribute it to, and when they hear that syllable in your speech they behave accordingly. I could string together a whole sentence with the word "sit" somewhere in the middle, and say it in a completely normal manner as if I'm talking to a human, and my dog will sit when I say it. If I were to say "I'm going to babysit my little sister today", to my dog, she will sit and listen to me.
When I tell her to roll over without using hand gestures, she will roll over. When I simply tell her to roll though, she won't. My friend's dog is the opposite, when he says roll the dog rolls, but when he says over the dog just looks at him funny.
This is by far a proven fact, but a theory that you'll find comes up alot in training classes or books. Try it out sometime by incorporating a single syllable command into a full sentence and then saying that sentence to your dog without any stress on that syllable, and see if they react to it when you get to that syllable.
EDIT: And the syllables don't have to be commands, my 2 year old understands human language too, to an extent, but (according to this theory, which I thoroughly agree with after spending the last 5 years of my life making a living taking care of several hundred dogs per week) dogs understand language in terms of syllables rather than words.
-------------------- Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.
Edited by RipVanWinkle (02/16/11 08:31 PM)
|
4runner


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 15,406
Loc: State of Jefferson
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: nicechrisman]
#13975761 - 02/16/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
nicechrisman said:He's about 11 now, and he can understand an amazing amount of the human language. He constantly amazed me and friends and family. This is something for down the road though. Doesn't really apply to early training.
Your dog rocks bro. I actually surprised myself the other day. I threw a ball and my dog missed where it bounced but I saw where it went. He started to come back towards me and I said "back" he did, then he started looking around and was almost on it and I said "right there", he stopped looked and sniffed and boom he found it in the leafs. I love it when they start comprehending more commands.
|
Shroomerette
Stranger
Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: RipVanWinkle]
#13975771 - 02/16/11 08:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Ok thanks! Good advice. This is the bitiest dog I've ever met, and I've been around a lot of puppies. Hopefully he'll hate getting flicked on the nose enough to tone it down.
One more question that might be stupid: Can watching violent movies with him affect his aggression at all? He always perks his ears up and stares intently at the screen when the really violent scenes are on. I'm guessing it probably doesn't really matter but I just want to be sure.
Quote:
RipVanWinkle said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Shroomerette said: Also, when I try to divert him from chewing on people by giving him chew toys he will take the toy and play with it by someones foot, and then he'll migrate to chewing on the foot. It's pretty annoying.
Try using a bitter apple type spray. When it chews on something its not allowed to do - pull it away, spray the object and give it a toy it can chew. 12 weeks seems a little early for teething, so it may get worse - all the more reason to train it what it can and cant chew now.
This is also a good recommendation, but alot of dogs (mine included) don't seem to be bothered by it at all, and it ends up being more of an annoyance to me than it does the dog 
EDIT: Also agree with the choke collar, except don't pull back on it to get him to stop. You should have the leash at a length short enough to where you can pull straight up. Atleast until you can break him of the habit. Pulling straight up is much more effective than pulling back on a leash. And choke collars (or "slip leashes") are almost a given, you're going to need one. One of my dogs was even stubborn enough to need the metal type with the prongs (but make sure the prongs are rubber-tipped)
We tried using tobasco sauce to make him stop chewing some things but he seemed to like the flavor, maybe the bitter apple will work better.
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
Edited by Shroomerette (02/16/11 08:32 PM)
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: 4runner]
#13975784 - 02/16/11 08:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
anunnakian said:
Quote:
nicechrisman said:He's about 11 now, and he can understand an amazing amount of the human language. He constantly amazed me and friends and family. This is something for down the road though. Doesn't really apply to early training.
Your dog rocks bro. I actually surprised myself the other day. I threw a ball and my dog missed where it bounced but I saw where it went. He started to come back towards me and I said "back" he did, then he started looking around and was almost on it and I said "right there", he stopped looked and sniffed and boom he found it in the leafs. I love it when they start comprehending more commands.
Thanks. Yeah, he's pretty awesome. Glad his health is getting back to normal. He's still got kidney disease, but the new food is helping a TON. He's on the Royal Canin prescription food. No more vomiting at all. He seems to be feeling pretty close to back to normal.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
|
4runner


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 15,406
Loc: State of Jefferson
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975800 - 02/16/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Scary ovies won't bother your dog... your energy will though. So if you are getting freaked out or streased your pup will do one of three things.
Get really nervous and get freaked out with off mental problems.
Sence you are crazy and then take a dominate roll since you are now the weak one.
Not give a shit.
Good to hear nicechrisman, I have not heard much but, to me that meant better news than a few months ago.
|
RipVanWinkle
The Benzodiazethang




Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 4,700
Loc: Near Memphrica, TN
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13975821 - 02/16/11 08:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not sure about the television, my dog never pays attention to it unless there's a dog barking on it 
Another thing you might want to consider is a squirt bottle. Squirt his nose every time he does something bad, (but as always, accompany it with a firm "no.") Squirt bottles work wonders too, and pretty soon your dog will start dodging his nose every time you say "no", but he will also stop what he is doing.
-------------------- Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: RipVanWinkle]
#13975851 - 02/16/11 08:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RipVanWinkle said: I'm not sure about the television, my dog never pays attention to it unless there's a dog barking on it 
Another thing you might want to consider is a squirt bottle. Squirt his nose every time he does something bad, (but as always, accompany it with a firm "no.") Squirt bottles work wonders too, and pretty soon your dog will start dodging his nose every time you say "no", but he will also stop what he is doing.
we watched this movie called "dogs decoded" a few weeks ago. Usually my dog could give 2 shits about TV, but he was enthralled my that movie.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
|
4runner


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 15,406
Loc: State of Jefferson
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: nicechrisman]
#13975882 - 02/16/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Cool show, I just watched that two days ago, again for the second time.
|
circularvortex
Bass Head




Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 12,148
Loc:
Last seen: 5 months, 18 hours
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette] 1
#13976009 - 02/16/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Definitely lots of exercise, especially for a lab. They're crazy hyper.
I'm probably gonna catch some shit for this, whatever - don't be afraid to hit your dog. Not necessarily to inflict in pain, but to let him know that you fucking mean business and that what he is doing is NOT ok. My friends that give me shit about this either have no dogs, or have a dog that misbehaves all the fucking time. I fucking hate it when people compliment me on what a well behaved dog I have and then get all fucking pissed at me if I hit him. Dogs naturally have dominance struggles with each other that get a hell of a lot rougher than a smack on the butt or a twist of the ear. Maybe you could get the same results walking out of the room, doing the nose tap, etc, but I don't like to let my dog run my life. If he's being a little dick and I smack him on the bum and send him to his kennel I don't have to disrupt all my activities because he decided to be a little shit.
Don't listen to skeptics tell you what you can and can't train a dog to do. All through my dog's life I've had people tell me, "Oh that's just what dogs do" Yeah? Not my fucking dog. Everybody's got an opinion on how you should train your dogs and they'll likely tell you all about their ideas, whether you ask them or not. It can really get quite frustrating.
TOTALLY recommend getting a kennel. Especially when they're young. Totally invaluable for when you need to leave the house, and getting them housebroken. Once they get a bit older you can start to ween them out of the kennel when you go to bed or leave the house, but Having the dog in a kennel when you aren't there to supervise is a 100% guarantee that nothing you don't want the dog to have will get fucked up.
My dog still has his little testes, so sometimes he gets all testosterage with me and tries to push the boundaries. I regularly stare his bitch ass down to let him know what's up.
For me I've had great success with tough love for my dog. I love the shit out of him and he loves the shit out of me. I've had a lot of people tell me that I'm 'abusing' my dog, but that's hippie nonsense bullshit. Abused dogs don't come running up to you with their tails wagging, grinning like a fool, and do whatever you tell them. Abused dogs cower in the corner, piss on the floor, and bite people. A little physical contact is, in my experience, very necessary.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, federal, or fashion police laws. All posts are works of fiction. For well you know that its a fool who plays it cool By making his world a little colder. Under closer inspection I realised it was a funky ball of tits from outer space.
 
|
RipVanWinkle
The Benzodiazethang




Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 4,700
Loc: Near Memphrica, TN
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: circularvortex]
#13976720 - 02/16/11 11:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
circularvortex said: Definitely lots of exercise, especially for a lab. They're crazy hyper.
I'm probably gonna catch some shit for this, whatever - don't be afraid to hit your dog. Not necessarily to inflict in pain, but to let him know that you fucking mean business and that what he is doing is NOT ok. My friends that give me shit about this either have no dogs, or have a dog that misbehaves all the fucking time.
I've had a lot of people tell me that I'm 'abusing' my dog, but that's hippie nonsense bullshit. Abused dogs don't come running up to you with their tails wagging, grinning like a fool, and do whatever you tell them. Abused dogs cower in the corner, piss on the floor, and bite people. A little physical contact is, in my experience, very necessary.
Amen. Glad to see someone that thinks logically and doesn't buy in to all the "never use negative reinforcement! It's not necessary!" bullshit. I even have a few friends that tell me that using the word "no" to my dog is bad, that dogs shouldn't even have to have it in their vocabulary if they're "properly trained through positive reinforcement".
And like you said, those people all have incredibly spoiled obnoxious dogs who are incredibly ill-mannered. They're angels in their owner's eyes, because the owners are convinced that its "just in their nature to jump on me and try to rip my pants off my body with their teeth". 
My dogs know when I'm mad, and they know that when I tell them to do something, they better obey me. They don't do it out of fear, they do it out of respect for their Alpha. Because thats what you are (or SHOULD be). If you refuse to hit your dog or tell your dog no, then you do not own a dog. A dog owns you. You might as well start learning Caninese so you can start doing more tricks for it.
I can set a plate of grilled steak on the floor in my kitchen with my dog in the room and walk out of the room, take a shit, and walk back in and it will be untouched. This did not come from "positive reinforcement". This came from persistently refusing to feed my dog ANY food other than dog food and dog treats, refusing to feed them except for AFTER I eat lunch/dinner, and smacking them if they acted like they were even thinking about licking my food. The only time they ever had human food in their mouth was when I was training them not to eat my food when i'm out of the room, and even then they only just started licking it when I came running back into the room to slap them and yell "no!"
Alpha's eat first, and alpha's decide when the rest of the pack gets to eat. Developing a canine pack mentality like that is THE BEST way to train a dog, and that is not an opinion, that is a FACT. The BEST way to train a dog is to think like a dog and establish a chain of dominance like a dog. This requires physical praise AND punishment.
Quote:
circularvortex said: Dogs naturally have dominance struggles with each other that get a hell of a lot rougher than a smack on the butt or a twist of the ear.
Indeed. And its the owner's (Alpha's) job to make sure a chain of dominance is established amongst their dogs if they have multiple dogs. If the chain is undetermined due to the owner instantly seperating or forbidding the dogs to establish it amongst themselves, it will cause confusion and more trouble down the line. There will always be one dog that is more dominant than the other, and this will cause fights between them if they don't sort out their places on the chain early on.
If they fight, say, over food, don't panic. Watch and see how the fight progresses.
The dog that is trying to establish its dominance will get stiff and start looking over at the other dog. It might start slowly moving, like its tryin not to be noticed, but it might start growling in a way that almost sounds like a deep pur. The other dog will either tuck its tail and back away, roll over (both being signs of submission), or it will get stiff and the hair on its back will start sticking up (known as piloerection, or "hackles"), its upper lip will start curling up, and it will start growling.
The dog that starts it might start out on top, but the dog that deserves the dominant status will end up on top, with the lesser dog pinned below it. More than likely it will have the lesser dog pinned down with its feet, and be snarling over it but not actually biting it. This is a way of saying "I'm in charge, don't fuck with me or you'll get hurt". If they've got the lesser dog's neck in their mouth and are jerking it around like they're trying to tear it, then it has escalated into an issue beyond mere dominance and should be stopped immediately by the owner. But if you notice that they're not actually tearing into each other and that the dominant dog just has the other dog pinned down and is snarling, let the dominant dog pin the lesser dog down for about a minute.
About 75% of the time they will stop themselves within a minute or two of pinning the other down if it IS a fight of dominance establishment. If not, yell at them or make a loud noise and walk towards them with a very assertive air about you. If they still don't seperate, drag the one on top off but be prepared to catch the bottom dog's collar in case it tries a cheap shot.
Nine times out of ten, if you let them establish their dominance in this way the first time, it will rarely happen again after that. If it does, then it is your job to RESPECT THEIR OWN CHAIN OF DOMINANCE and push aside the "second in command" and slap the "third in command". Always punish the last in command more than the first, so that their dominance chain is not confused, or else fights are more likely to happen more often.
This is just an example of the way you have to think to really be in control when training a dog. You have to learn to read every move they make. Meaning how they hold their tail, shoulders, ears, lips, eyes, legs, even pupils.
Large pupils mean the dog is scared or angry. Piloerection (hackles) mean the dog feels threatened.
Tucked tail = scared, tail pointed upwards can mean the dog is interested, about to attack, wanting to play, or a number of other things. This is when you have to read other body signs.
A tail pointing upward when the dog has its chest pushed out is a way of a dog saying "I'm in charge here and I'm about to woop your ass if you don't back off", while a tail pointed upward and the dog's chest pushed towards the floor and its feet stuck out in front is a way of saying "Play with me!"
Its amazing how much you can understand dogs when they're communicating with each other just by visual ques like that. How the smallest twitches of certain areas of the body can mean different things, and how combinations of different body positions/movements translate into different messages. I could write a book for you about communication between dogs via body language, but there's already plenty of websites and books about that so I'll let you investigate that yourself if you're interested 
But the more you understand the language your dogs use amongst themselves, the more effective you will be when training. With dedication to learning THEIR language and lots of practice, you can almost train even the more unruly dogs all the basics and more in a matter of days. That's why the people at my last job (before I got fired b/c one of the managers thought I was going to try and take her job and made up some shit about me doing drugs at work) always had me handle the aggressive dogs or dogs that were scared to the point of being dangerous. When you know how they communicate, they're unbelievably easier to handle.
I've taken a dog that was so scared that they bit my co-worker's hand causing him to have 15 stitches, and had it licking my face and rolling over in my lap in a matter of 2 hours. And it's not because I'm special in any way, its just because I've taken the extra time to study their behavior and methods of communication and applied it to how I interact with the dogs. And I've been doing it long enough that that basic understanding developed into a deeper understanding that I can't really explain in words, but anyone can do it if they apply themselves.
It's all about taking the time to learn, establishing dominance, and being patient and NEVER PANICKING OR LOSING CONTROL OF YOUR EMOTIONS!
I know none of the above directly answered any of the questions you had, but I hope that in reading that you got a good understanding about the ideal mentality you need to develop in order to really get a natural understanding between yourself and all other dogs, even dogs that aren't your own. It will broaden your capabilities when training your own dog tremendously, and make all those things that you once thought "how the hell am I supposed to teach it that?!" seem no harder than teaching them to sit.
(BTW, I am in no way encouraging dog fighting when I say to let them work out their own dominance. I am encouraging supervised establishment of a chain of dominance. These types of fights rarely end in seriously hurt dogs. They might have a scratch or two, but normally in this type of dog fight the dogs are not trying to really hurt the other dog, they are just making sure that the other dog KNOWS that if it doesn't submit that it WILL be hurt.
If one dog is seriously being hurt, there is an issue deeper than unestablished dominance and they should be seperated immediately, but not by dragging them apart. Spray them with a hose, yell, make loud noises, throw something at them if you have to, but if you pull them apart when one dog has a mouthful of the other dog, you will have more lacerations to deal with than you would if you could get them separate before dragging them apart, which could result in torn arteries, internal bleeding, possibly the death of the hurt dog, and if nothing else a significantly larger vet bill)
EDIT: Wow, I can't believe I actually typed all that, and i'm not even on speed
-------------------- Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.
Edited by RipVanWinkle (02/16/11 11:13 PM)
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: RipVanWinkle]
#13976738 - 02/16/11 11:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I didn't read your whole thing there Rip, but I agree that establishing dominance is key with dogs. it's the cornerstone of their society. A lot of people think this is somehow cruel or whatever, but dogs are actually a lot happier and less stressed out when they know that they don't have to worry about all the alpha shit, that you are taking care of it. there's nothing more confusing for a dog than inconsistency in this role.Cesar Millan talks a lot about this in his book.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
|
RipVanWinkle
The Benzodiazethang




Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 4,700
Loc: Near Memphrica, TN
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: nicechrisman]
#13976999 - 02/17/11 12:06 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I haven't read caesar's book, I'll have to check it out. Seen his show a few times (I don't have tv so can't watch often) and I've really enjoyed what I have watched. He really knows what he's doing. Most of the books i've read have been training manuals for a corporate dog daycare and some other pack behavior books that were required reading for a manager position at another daycare for dogs. When you have to oversee a room of 25 dogs playing together on your own, you have to know stuff like that. I was required to read a different manual for each of the jobs, but they also had more in depth books about pack mentality and communication that the managers let me take home and read (the managers were required to read those books in the corporate job, and the private owned company was run by an older couple who both specialized in canine ethology, so just working for them was an incredible learning experience)
But just spending 8 hours a day in a room of 25 unleashed and playing dogs for several years was the best teacher of all. Lots of fun, lots of fights, lots of scars all over me, but when it was all said and done I'm glad I had the opportunity to work at those places.
I'm planning on starting back to college (I'll have to start back as a freshman ) this coming fall to major in animal behavior with a focus in canine pack behavior.
I hope to find a career in wolf ethology, I've always felt a connection with wolves and got the chance to spend a day caring for several at a haven in British Colombia a few years back, and have worked some with wolf/dog hybrids with the man that trained the wolves that are seen in the film "Dances with Wolves", he lives just a few hours northeast of where I live. Amazing animals, so incredibly intelligent and fascinating...
-------------------- Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.
Edited by RipVanWinkle (02/17/11 12:07 AM)
|
nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: RipVanWinkle]
#13977018 - 02/17/11 12:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RipVanWinkle said: I haven't read caesar's book, I'll have to check it out. Seen his show a few times (I don't have tv so can't watch often) and I've really enjoyed what I have watched. He really knows what he's doing. Most of the books i've read have been training manuals for a corporate dog daycare and some other pack behavior books that were required reading for a manager position at another daycare for dogs. When you have to oversee a room of 25 dogs playing together on your own, you have to know stuff like that. I was required to read a different manual for each of the jobs, but they also had more in depth books about pack mentality and communication that the managers let me take home and read (the managers were required to read those books in the corporate job, and the private owned company was run by an older couple who both specialized in canine ethology, so just working for them was an incredible learning experience)
But just spending 8 hours a day in a room of 25 unleashed and playing dogs for several years was the best teacher of all. Lots of fun, lots of fights, lots of scars all over me, but when it was all said and done I'm glad I had the opportunity to work at those places.
I'm planning on starting back to college (I'll have to start back as a freshman ) this coming fall to major in animal behavior with a focus in canine pack behavior.
I hope to find a career in wolf ethology, I've always felt a connection with wolves and got the chance to spend a day caring for several at a haven in British Colombia a few years back, and have worked some with wolf/dog hybrids with the man that trained the wolves that are seen in the film "Dances with Wolves", he lives just a few hours northeast of where I live. Amazing animals, so incredibly intelligent and fascinating...
Sounds like a fun job with those dogs. I had a room mate who used to work with socializing groups of sable shepherd puppies, and used to work for a guard dog delivery company. He always had lots of good dog stories to tell. He taught me a lot about raising my dog, and he's honestly the best and most well behaved dog I've ever known.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
|
Shroomerette
Stranger
Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: nicechrisman]
#13985712 - 02/18/11 05:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Ok so I'm smacking him whenever he bites, and he doesn't like that too much so I think the biting will be solved before too long. I started working on heel today with this method http://www.dog-obedience-training-review.com/teaching-a-dog-to-heel.html (I don't have a choke collar yet), he doing it good for short distances inside but not outside. Does the technique from the link look like it will work eventually?
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
|
Buckthorn
Stranger

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 4,561
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: Shroomerette]
#13985885 - 02/18/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
When you're playing with him eventually put him on his back and stand over him and make eye contact wth him and stare him in the eyes until he submits.
Treat your dog like you're the big dog
|
nikoD
Stranger


Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 45
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
|
Re: Anyone have a well-trained dog? LF some training advice. [Re: 4runner]
#13998317 - 02/20/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I'm reading a book called 'Merle's Door'. In it the author Ted Kerasote describes giving dogs as much freedom as possible in order for them to learn how to think for themselves. At first I thought it was kind of flaky advice, but the way he describes it shows that his ideas definitely have some merit.
-------------------- we've invented senses we didn't even know we had.
|
|