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TeamAmerica



Registered: 12/02/08
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
#13974475 - 02/16/11 04:16 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Silversoul said:
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TeamAmerica said: No no...It is THROUGH Cultural relativism that I can see the arrogance and blindness of other cultures, Some have more of this attribute than others...Because you can compare cultures, and all are "Ethnocentric" because all peoples have their prides...
You said "THROUGH cultural relativism one may come to hate a corrupt racist culture that fails to understand Relativism in the first place..."(emphasis mine). Applying this standard consistently, it would then be incumbent upon you to hate every culture in existence.
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But again you were trying to play the negative game with African and natives tribes by singling out Human sacrifice and genital manipulation, Yet when I point out the Negativity of our own culture and its ancestors you get butthurt?
No one's getting butthurt here but you. As the descendant of a prominent, slave-owning family from Georgia, I have plenty of negativity about my ancestors already. I am in no way defending my own culture. I am talking about the shortcomings of cultural relativism.
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Dont accuse me of not understanding other Cultures accurately and fairly...Which is Cultural relativism...
Where did I accuse you of this?
Wether I hate them or not is my own choice...Its not because I do not understand them... And its not that I hate the early Spaniards or romans/Europeans ..I just see them as surprisingly more poisonous (literally as well as figuratively) than any native of any part of the world...
And the fact that they saw the other cultures of humans as inferior to their "Moral Society" to the point of absolute destruction of them as a civilization Is a pretty accurate example of Cultural relativism...
So again I dont understand when you say...I'm "Missing the point" And that it "Amounts to nothing" Indeed it amounts to quite a bit seeing that the Society of the Spaniards is pretty much responsible for our existence where we are sitting at in America right now...
Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 04:19 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] 1
#13974511 - 02/16/11 04:23 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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TeamAmerica said: Wether I hate them or not is my own choice...Its not because I do not understand them... And its not that I hate the early Spaniards or romans/Europeans ..I just see them as surprisingly more poisonous (literally as well as figuratively) than any native of any part of the world...
And the fact that they saw the other cultures of humans as inferior to their "Moral Society" to the point of absolute destruction of them as a civilization Is a pretty accurate example of Cultural relativism...
So again I dont understand when you say...I'm "Missing the point" And that it "Amounts to nothing" Indeed it amounts to quite a bit seeing that the Society of the Spaniards is pretty much responsible for our existence where we are sitting at in America right now...
Again, from the cultural relativist standpoint, you have no more right to condemn the Spaniards than they had to condemn the Aztecs. Also, you completely missed the point about hating other cultures. It's not just European cultures that are ethnocentric. It's every culture on the planet, with modern cosmopolitan westerners being among the least ethnocentric. Western culture is what developed cultural relativism to begin with. Thus, if you're to judge a culture based on how ethnocentric it is, then by all accounts, you should be praising Western culture.
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TeamAmerica



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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
#13974607 - 02/16/11 04:40 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Silversoul said:
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TeamAmerica said: Wether I hate them or not is my own choice...Its not because I do not understand them... And its not that I hate the early Spaniards or romans/Europeans ..I just see them as surprisingly more poisonous (literally as well as figuratively) than any native of any part of the world...
And the fact that they saw the other cultures of humans as inferior to their "Moral Society" to the point of absolute destruction of them as a civilization Is a pretty accurate example of Cultural relativism...
So again I dont understand when you say...I'm "Missing the point" And that it "Amounts to nothing" Indeed it amounts to quite a bit seeing that the Society of the Spaniards is pretty much responsible for our existence where we are sitting at in America right now...
Again, from the cultural relativist standpoint, you have no more right to condemn the Spaniards than they had to condemn the Aztecs. Also, you completely missed the point about hating other cultures. It's not just European cultures that are ethnocentric. It's every culture on the planet, with modern cosmopolitan westerners being among the least ethnocentric. Western culture is what developed cultural relativism to begin with. Thus, if you're to judge a culture based on how ethnocentric it is, then by all accounts, you should be praising Western culture.
Western society the least ethnocentric? 
Did it ever occur to you that other cultures had the idea of Cultural relativism before some white guy discovers it, mainly in the light of our own prejudices that we even understood it...
LOL its almost too arrogant to believe...Ever hear of Buddhism? The ideas of Relativism and transcending our cultural paradigm most definitely precedes Western society and language...
That is why I said in the beginning that Cultural relativism is much deeper than sociology..But im not actually expecting you to read/understand my posts...
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Silversoul
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] 1
#13974682 - 02/16/11 04:51 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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TeamAmerica said: Western society the least ethnocentric? 
Yes. Cosmopolitanism is a product of modernity, which came about first in the West. It has certainly spread to other cultures, particularly in East Asia, but even there, ethnocentrism remains stronger than in more individualistic Western societies.
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Did it ever occur to you that other cultures had the idea of Cultural relativism before some white guy discovers it, mainly in the light of our own prejudices that we even understood it...
Arriving at a position of relativism tends to come from cultural development, so I don't claim that Western culture is the only culture that can reach cultural relativism. I'm saying that in practice, they were the first culture to do so.
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LOL its almost too arrogant to believe...Ever hear of Buddhism? The ideas of Relativism and transcending our cultural paradigm most definitely precedes Western society and language...
I know plenty about Buddhism, and cultural relativism is not in its teachings. Indeed, the Buddha claimed to have found a set of universal truths, which is hardly a relativist position. I also know that a Buddhist regime in Japan declared Christianity illegal and sought to eradicate it from the country. So much for cultural relativism.
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That is why I said in the beginning that Cultural relativism is much deeper than sociology..But im not actually expecting you to read/understand my posts...
Enlighten me, then. If cultural relativism is "much deeper than sociology," what is it, then? You have been contradicting yourself throughout this debate, and I have simply been pointing out those contradictions.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
#13974696 - 02/16/11 04:54 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Silversoul said: Cultural relativism can be as dangerous as ethnocentrism if carried too far. How can a cultural relativist address things like female genital mutilation, or honor killings? They just have to throw their hands up and be like "Well, it's their culture." I say this as someone who majored in both sociology and anthropology.
How can one advocate for that position without being labeled a bigot?
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Silversoul
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: DieCommie]
#13974704 - 02/16/11 04:55 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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DieCommie said:
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Silversoul said: Cultural relativism can be as dangerous as ethnocentrism if carried too far. How can a cultural relativist address things like female genital mutilation, or honor killings? They just have to throw their hands up and be like "Well, it's their culture." I say this as someone who majored in both sociology and anthropology.
How can one advocate for that position without being labeled a bigot?
Depends how you frame your position and who's doing the labeling.
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TeamAmerica



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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
#13974820 - 02/16/11 05:17 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Silversoul said:
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TeamAmerica said: Western society the least ethnocentric? 
Yes. Cosmopolitanism is a product of modernity, which came about first in the West. It has certainly spread to other cultures, particularly in East Asia, but even there, ethnocentrism remains stronger than in more individualistic Western societies.
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Did it ever occur to you that other cultures had the idea of Cultural relativism before some white guy discovers it, mainly in the light of our own prejudices that we even understood it...
Arriving at a position of relativism tends to come from cultural development, so I don't claim that Western culture is the only culture that can reach cultural relativism. I'm saying that in practice, they were the first culture to do so.
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LOL its almost too arrogant to believe...Ever hear of Buddhism? The ideas of Relativism and transcending our cultural paradigm most definitely precedes Western society and language...
I know plenty about Buddhism, and cultural relativism is not in its teachings. Indeed, the Buddha claimed to have found a set of universal truths, which is hardly a relativist position. I also know that a Buddhist regime in Japan declared Christianity illegal and sought to eradicate it from the country. So much for cultural relativism.
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That is why I said in the beginning that Cultural relativism is much deeper than sociology..But im not actually expecting you to read/understand my posts...
Enlighten me, then. If cultural relativism is "much deeper than sociology," what is it, then? You have been contradicting yourself throughout this debate, and I have simply been pointing out those contradictions.
You still are referring to "Relativists" its not that you are a "Relativist" Its simply the ACT of of understanding and or transcending your own culture...
Buddhism is FULL of these examples...Read the life of Bhudda, his whole life was spent discovering which teachings were accurate to solving the problems of human suffering, and he literally transcended ideas of extreme self denial that was apparent in surrounding Asian/Indian beliefs...
This is only a small example...Alexander the great knew plenty about 'Cultural Relativism'
You want to be enlightened by what that means? Sadly you simply do not understand that ideas predate and transcend language so any culture in any point of time could of Discovered "Cultural Relativism"
The only reason the Asian countries defended against White man's religion is because they saw what White man had done in other Countries and to other peoples COUGH COUGH More fucking power to them...
The very fact you said that shows how little you understand...
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Silversoul
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] 1
#13974896 - 02/16/11 05:32 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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TeamAmerica said: You still are referring to "Relativists" its not that you are a "Relativist" Its simply the ACT of of understanding and or transcending your own culture...
That is not cultural relativism. Cultural relativism is the position that we cannot judge the practices of other cultures because we have our own cultural bias.
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Buddhism is FULL of these examples...Read the life of Bhudda, his whole life was spent discovering which teachings were accurate to solving the problems of human suffering, and he literally transcended ideas of extreme self denial that was apparent in surrounding Asian/Indian beliefs...
Again, that is not cultural relativism. That is pragmatism: experimenting to see what works. It is the basis of the scientific method. There is nothing that culturally relativist about that.
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This is only a small example...Alexander the great knew plenty about 'Cultural Relativism'
Since Alexander the Great was a Westerner, wouldn't that reinforce my point about cultural relativism arising in the West? Of course, the fact is that he wasn't a cultural relativist, but a syncretist. But you don't seem to understand the difference.
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You want to be enlightened by what that means? Sadly you simply do not understand that ideas predate and transcend language so any culture in any point of time could of Discovered "Cultural Relativism"
Evidence? The fact is that we see cultural relativism most prominently in the modern west. That is not to imply that it's a uniquely Western phenomenon.
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The only reason the Asian countries defended against White man's religion is because they saw what White man had done in other Countries and to other peoples COUGH COUGH More fucking power to them...
You sound just like an ethnocentric Westerner denouncing Islam within their country. How incredibly bigoted and ethnocentric of you.
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The very fact you said that shows how little you understand...
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TeamAmerica



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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
#13974936 - 02/16/11 05:43 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Silversoul said:
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TeamAmerica said: You still are referring to "Relativists" its not that you are a "Relativist" Its simply the ACT of of understanding and or transcending your own culture...
That is not cultural relativism. Cultural relativism is the position that we cannot judge the practices of other cultures because we have our own cultural bias.
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Buddhism is FULL of these examples...Read the life of Bhudda, his whole life was spent discovering which teachings were accurate to solving the problems of human suffering, and he literally transcended ideas of extreme self denial that was apparent in surrounding Asian/Indian beliefs...
Again, that is not cultural relativism. That is pragmatism: experimenting to see what works. It is the basis of the scientific method. There is nothing that culturally relativist about that.
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This is only a small example...Alexander the great knew plenty about 'Cultural Relativism'
Since Alexander the Great was a Westerner, wouldn't that reinforce my point about cultural relativism arising in the West? Of course, the fact is that he wasn't a cultural relativist, but a syncretist. But you don't seem to understand the difference.
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You want to be enlightened by what that means? Sadly you simply do not understand that ideas predate and transcend language so any culture in any point of time could of Discovered "Cultural Relativism"
Evidence? The fact is that we see cultural relativism most prominently in the modern west. That is not to imply that it's a uniquely Western phenomenon.
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The only reason the Asian countries defended against White man's religion is because they saw what White man had done in other Countries and to other peoples COUGH COUGH More fucking power to them...
You sound just like an ethnocentric Westerner denouncing Islam within their country. How incredibly bigoted and ethnocentric of you.
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The very fact you said that shows how little you understand...

Alexander the great was the last of the Greeks on the scene before the Romans burnt down Alexandria and took over and killed the Greeks...
Modern Western society is more linked with The Romans and hardly at all connected with the Greeks...
This is why I used Alexander as an example...But some of us like to steal the beauty of the Greeks and claim it as their own...Aka the Romans... aka us...
You can deny what Im saying/not understand my posts all you want 
The story of Buddha is a perfect example...He transcends his own biased culture and understands and lives multiples philosophies of the east...Buddhism is the fucking manifestation of relativism and tolerance.
Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 05:46 PM)
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setb
10th level beer nerd

Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] 1
#13975008 - 02/16/11 06:01 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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I don't even know why you bother with this guy silversoul. He is just another typical liberal moralist that thinks he is superior because he hates the "right people" (ie. Americans, Europeans, Israel, Christians, Jews, etc.).
Though it is pretty entertaining to watch you tare his arguments apart .
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Silversoul
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
#13975021 - 02/16/11 06:04 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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TeamAmerica said: Alexander the great was the last of the Greeks on the scene before the Romans burnt down Alexandria and took over and killed the Greeks...
Modern Western society is more linked with The Romans and hardly at all connected with the Greeks...
Complete and utter nonsense. Ancient Greek culture is the foundation of Western civilization. Who do you think the Romans got most of their ideas from?
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This is why I used Alexander as an example...But some of us like to steal the beauty of the Greeks and claim it as our own...Aka the Romans... aka us...
I love how you talk about "stealing" their beauty as if it belonged strictly to them. Cultural appropriation is a natural part of syncretism, which is what Alexander the Great engaged in.
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You can deny what Im saying/not understand my posts all you want 
I do and will continue to do so, because you demonstrate quite consistently that you don't know what you're talking about.
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The story of Buddha is a perfect example...He transcends his own biased culture and understands and lives multiples philosophies of the east...Buddhism is the fucking manifestation of relativism and tolerance.
Oh yeah? Then explain the persecution of Muslims in Burma. How about the support among Japanese Buddhists for imperialism in the years leading up to World War II? What about the Sri Lankan government's persecution of the Hindu Tamil minority? You claim to promote cultural understanding, and yet in putting these other cultures on a pedestal, you remain ignorant of their culture. Real cultural understanding means understanding the positives and negatives and working to strengthen the former while minimizing the latter.
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Humility
Working on it



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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
#13975071 - 02/16/11 06:16 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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This thread has too many replies for me to read it all at the moment.
Freshman year of college I took an anthro class. One of the best classes I took during my entire time at college (3 semesters lol).
That class was the ONLY class for which I read EVERY book I was assigned, and read it in its entirety, not just the assigned readings or portions thereof. The only exception was the course textbook (kinda dry) which I still read 80%+ of.
Anthropology is very important. It's important to understand culture and people. Really, it's a very psychedelic thing minus the drugs because you understand that everything (and everyone) is so similar everywhere, yet there are variations, slight differences on a base of similarity.
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TeamAmerica



Registered: 12/02/08
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
#13975100 - 02/16/11 06:24 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Silversoul said:
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TeamAmerica said: Alexander the great was the last of the Greeks on the scene before the Romans burnt down Alexandria and took over and killed the Greeks...
Modern Western society is more linked with The Romans and hardly at all connected with the Greeks...
Complete and utter nonsense. Ancient Greek culture is the foundation of Western civilization. Who do you think the Romans got most of their ideas from?
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This is why I used Alexander as an example...But some of us like to steal the beauty of the Greeks and claim it as our own...Aka the Romans... aka us...
I love how you talk about "stealing" their beauty as if it belonged strictly to them. Cultural appropriation is a natural part of syncretism, which is what Alexander the Great engaged in.
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You can deny what Im saying/not understand my posts all you want 
I do and will continue to do so, because you demonstrate quite consistently that you don't know what you're talking about.
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The story of Buddha is a perfect example...He transcends his own biased culture and understands and lives multiples philosophies of the east...Buddhism is the fucking manifestation of relativism and tolerance.
Oh yeah? Then explain the persecution of Muslims in Burma. How about the support among Japanese Buddhists for imperialism in the years leading up to World War II? What about the Sri Lankan government's persecution of the Hindu Tamil minority? You claim to promote cultural understanding, and yet in putting these other cultures on a pedestal, you remain ignorant of their culture. Real cultural understanding means understanding the positives and negatives and working to strengthen the former while minimizing the latter.
The original Buddha and what Modern "Buddhist" do is irrelevant and not connected...
The same story is accurate to the Original Christ..And what later "Christians" did...
Im not a sociology major...And Im not restricted by definitions...But my understanding of this is def not less than yours...
And Fuck "Setb" who the fuck is that?
Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 06:26 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] 1
#13975111 - 02/16/11 06:26 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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TeamAmerica said: The original Buddha and what Modern "Buddhist" do is irrelevant...
The same story is accurate to the Original Christ..And what later "Christians" did...
Indeed, both figures were ahead of their time, but we're talking cultures here, not individuals.
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Again Im not a sociology major...And Im not restricted by definitions...
Definitions are how words are understood. If you're not "restricted" by definitions, then you're just talking gibberish.
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But my understanding of this is def not less than yours...
You've demonstrated quite clearly that it is.
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TeamAmerica



Registered: 12/02/08
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
#13975141 - 02/16/11 06:34 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Silversoul said:
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TeamAmerica said: The original Buddha and what Modern "Buddhist" do is irrelevant...
The same story is accurate to the Original Christ..And what later "Christians" did...
Indeed, both figures were ahead of their time, but we're talking cultures here, not individuals.
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Again Im not a sociology major...And Im not restricted by definitions...
Definitions are how words are understood. If you're not "restricted" by definitions, then you're just talking gibberish.
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But my understanding of this is def not less than yours...
You've demonstrated quite clearly that it is.
No...Definitions are the restrictions of language that you have put around your perception of the topic...This is exactly why you can't understand that cultural relativism is older than American society...But that is so easy to understand, yet you fail to...
The letter killeth
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
#13975148 - 02/16/11 06:35 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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TeamAmerica said: No...Definitions are the restrictions of language that you have put around your perception of the topic...This is exactly why you can't understand that cultural relativism is older than American society...But that is so easy to understand, yet you fail to...
I see...so it's easy to understand once words no longer have meaning. Okay, Jared Loughner. Nice chat.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!



Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
#13975155 - 02/16/11 06:37 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Cultural relativism is surely as old as the first time in human history somebody noticed that people from different cities had different customs. The name, "cultural relativism" is what's new.
Of course, it's not really necessary to veil my entire post in pseudo-mystical hooey to get the point across.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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TeamAmerica



Registered: 12/02/08
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
#13975171 - 02/16/11 06:40 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Silversoul said:
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TeamAmerica said: No...Definitions are the restrictions of language that you have put around your perception of the topic...This is exactly why you can't understand that cultural relativism is older than American society...But that is so easy to understand, yet you fail to...
I see...so it's easy to understand once words no longer have meaning. Okay, Jared Loughner. Nice chat.
Comparing me too Jared loughner is probably one the lamest things youve said yet 
And surprisingly expected...Watch less television
Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 06:42 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
#13975178 - 02/16/11 06:41 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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Careful not to ascribe too much meaning to his words now...
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!



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Posts: 43,135
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: DieCommie]
#13975180 - 02/16/11 06:41 PM (13 years, 17 days ago) |
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DieCommie said: Careful not to ascribe too much meaning to his words now...
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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