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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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America would be a better place
    #13973642 - 02/16/11 01:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

if everyone took and passed a cultural anthropolgy class. I mean, even just learning to use Cultural relativism while looking at other cultures would solve SOOO MANY of our friggin problems.

people are always so ethnocentric, including myself for a long while.

Im a youngin so ya'll probably took this class a while ago


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13973660 - 02/16/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

realfuzzhead said:
if everyone took and passed a cultural anthropolgy class. I mean, even just learning to use Cultural relativism while looking at other cultures would solve SOOO MANY of our friggin problems.

people are always so ethnocentric, including myself for a long while.

Im a youngin so ya'll probably took this class a while ago


I totally agree, I think it's retarded how some people can't look outside the box and examine themselves and their culture from an unbiased perspective; people who are "culture sheep" are fags IMO. :stoned:


Cultural anthropology reveals how crazy, stupid, & weird humans are IMO. :sheepie::sadyes:



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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineChoix Sinaloa
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Poid]
    #13973723 - 02/16/11 01:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Pm :frown:


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thingy magigy




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InvisibleJesusGoneRogue
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13973740 - 02/16/11 01:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

very good post fuzzhead. i like to draw cubes and write "think outside the cube" nex to them. when we remove ourselves from bias, we can analyze are problems with a more keen eye.


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Offlinenoticeofeviction
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13973755 - 02/16/11 01:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

realfuzzhead said:
if everyone took and passed a cultural anthropolgy class. I mean, even just learning to use Cultural relativism while looking at other cultures would solve SOOO MANY of our friggin problems.

people are always so ethnocentric, including myself for a long while.

Im a youngin so ya'll probably took this class a while ago




On the topic of cultural relativism, some basic sociology classes would go a long way too.

Shit, we just need to smarten up in general! C'mon fellas.


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Invisibleifoundwaldo


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: noticeofeviction]
    #13973759 - 02/16/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

if everyone understood how fucking magnets worked.


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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: ifoundwaldo]
    #13973767 - 02/16/11 01:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

or why the rent is so damn high!:macdre: :lol:


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OfflineRoyksopp
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13973830 - 02/16/11 01:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

because its california!


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~big dicks in your ass is bad for your health~


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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Royksopp]
    #13973842 - 02/16/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:werd: socal and sanfran at least. Chico's cheap, humboldts pretty cheap, anywhere inbetween those two is VERY cheap. (besides popular mountain resort towns etc.)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead] * 2
    #13973857 - 02/16/11 02:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

realfuzzhead said:
if everyone took and passed a cultural anthropolgy class. I mean, even just learning to use Cultural relativism while looking at other cultures would solve SOOO MANY of our friggin problems.

people are always so ethnocentric, including myself for a long while.

Im a youngin so ya'll probably took this class a while ago



Cultural relativism can be as dangerous as ethnocentrism if carried too far.  How can a cultural relativist address things like female genital mutilation, or honor killings?  They just have to throw their hands up and be like "Well, it's their culture."  I say this as someone who majored in both sociology and anthropology.


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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13973881 - 02/16/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I do understand that, im currently taking the class and is was pointed out that some enthocentrism is critical for the fabric of society to stay in touch, otherwise you get.. hmm. Amobi? fuck im not near my book right now. but basically people loose touch with thier culture and depression sets in, sort of how the indian suicide and alcoholism rates have skyrocketed since white man came in?

shoulda broken that up a little bit, but im trying to type and get high at the same time :thumbup::happyweed:

edit: didnt read your whole post, cool cool taking those majors, whats your profession if you do not mind me asking :smirk:?


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13973941 - 02/16/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

realfuzzhead said:
if everyone took and passed a cultural anthropolgy class. I mean, even just learning to use Cultural relativism while looking at other cultures would solve SOOO MANY of our friggin problems.

people are always so ethnocentric, including myself for a long while.

Im a youngin so ya'll probably took this class a while ago



Cultural relativism can be as dangerous as ethnocentrism if carried too far.  How can a cultural relativist address things like female genital mutilation, or honor killings?  They just have to throw their hands up and be like "Well, it's their culture."  I say this as someone who majored in both sociology and anthropology.




It's not about being a "Cultural relativist" Its about understanding that all cultures develop their own 'morals' or lack of 'morals'...

Its a philosophy that is much deeper than sociology...

The American thinks cows are nothing more than a food source and a simple creature...While the Hindu sees it as a symbol of what is pure among nature and even what is divine...

Cultural relativism is not "carried too far" It's either understood,or misunderstood by bias people that cannot see past their own cultural paradigm...

Relativism is one of the most important ideas that we can understand our reality with...Its not about going to a college class, Its about being fucking honest with yourself and understanding humanity and even life on earth as whole...


Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 02:20 PM)


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: ifoundwaldo]
    #13973955 - 02/16/11 02:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ifoundwaldo said:
if everyone understood how fucking magnets worked.




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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13973993 - 02/16/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
It's not about being a "Cultural relativist" Its about understanding that all cultures develop their own 'morals' or lack of 'morals'...



Of course, but taking a culture's morals as a whole blinds one to the moral distinctions that exist within a society.  If, for example, we were to accept female genital mutilation due to the fact that it's part of people's culture, we would then have to ignore the people within those cultures who are calling for an end to the practice.  Adopting a stance of pure cultural relativism also leaves out the dignity of the individual.  If a culture believes in human sacrifice, what are we to say to the people they mean to sacrifice?  It also ignores the fact that cultures evolve.  We can go back to a time in our own culture when disease was blamed on witches, and innocent women were burned at the stake as a result.  And yet we evolved out of that mindset.  Relativism left to its own devices leads to a flattening of the moral sphere, such that no ethical distinctions can be made at all.  Relativism needs to incorporate a developmental perspective that values both the individual and the collective, or else it paralyzes us in the face of moral dilemmas.


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13974111 - 02/16/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
It's not about being a "Cultural relativist" Its about understanding that all cultures develop their own 'morals' or lack of 'morals'...



Of course, but taking a culture's morals as a whole blinds one to the moral distinctions that exist within a society.  If, for example, we were to accept female genital mutilation due to the fact that it's part of people's culture, we would then have to ignore the people within those cultures who are calling for an end to the practice.  Adopting a stance of pure cultural relativism also leaves out the dignity of the individual.  If a culture believes in human sacrifice, what are we to say to the people they mean to sacrifice?  It also ignores the fact that cultures evolve.  We can go back to a time in our own culture when disease was blamed on witches, and innocent women were burned at the stake as a result.  And yet we evolved out of that mindset. If you can call it that Relativism left to its own devices leads to a flattening of the moral sphere, such that no ethical distinctions can be made at all.  Relativism needs to incorporate a developmental perspective that values both the individual and the collective, or else it paralyzes us in the face of moral dilemmas.




Again relativism isn't a religion it's simply accurately viewing other cultures...

You can't just bring up apparent negatives in a culture like Human sacrifice and female genital mutilation without understanding its place in that "Moral" structure of their culture...Cultural relativism means to understand even the most negative aspects without tabooing them as you seem to be...

There are so many other issues that cultural relativism addresses...You cant just say...'American culture is superior because some isolated tribe in Africa likes to alter their flesh...

And as far as human sacrifice goes...

You are the Spaniard Roman in the jungles of South America while you stumble across the Aztec/post Mayan civilization, Ofcourse you come from the land of white man/romans that thinks he is the light of the world and "Moraly" superior, you even have your own religion that you can arrogantly believe you are a 'sword for God' per say...You think that you are in some way more pure, but indeed you are the opposite, your filthiness and disease destroy entire native populations...

You see the natives and their blood rituals...Yet because of your CULTURAL POINT OF VIEW/MORAL SUPERIORITY COMPLEX you slaughter the entire race and end their civilization and destroy its codexes...This in itself is far worse than a human sacrifice...Indeed the people that claim Moral Superiority are usually the barbarians and the most dangerous and least intelligent...

And thus we come across the philosophies of Cultural Relativism and perhaps even the 'Noble Savage'


Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 03:07 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13974150 - 02/16/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
Again relativism isnt a religion its simply accurately viewing other cultures...



No it is not.  There is a difference between viewing a culture and its practices and equivocal about all its practices.

Quote:

You can't just bring up apparent negatives in a culture like Human sacrifice and female genital mutilation without understanding its place in that "Moral" structure of their culture...Cultural relativism means to understand even the most negative aspects without tabooing them as you seem to be...



Of course you need to understand the cultural background behind these practices.  But you can't stop there and just give it a pass.  That's what cultural relativism does.  Understanding the cultural background can actually help in reforming aspects of a culture that are harmful to other people.

Quote:

There are so many other issues that cultural relativism addresses...You cant just say...'American culture is superior because some isolated tribe in Africa likes to alter their flesh...



There are many things wrong with American culture, and I don't have to be a foreigner to notice that.  Just as many people from other cultures are able to identify problems in their own culture. 



Quote:

And as far as human sacrifice goes...

You are the Spaniard Roman in the jungles of South America while you stumble across the Aztec/post Mayan civilization, Ofcourse you come from the land of white man/romans that thinks he is the light of the world and "Moraly" superior, you even have your own religion that you can arrogantly believe you are a 'sword for God' per say...You think that you are in some way more pure, but indeed you are the opposite, your filthiness and disease destroy entire native populations...

You see the natives and their blood rituals...Yet because of your CULTURAL POINT OF VIEW/MORAL SUPERIORITY COMPLEX you slaughter the entire race and end their civilization and destroy its codexes...This in itself is far worse than a human sacrifice...Indeed the people that claim Moral Superiority are usually the barbarians and the most dangerous and least intelligent...

And thus we come across the philosophies of Cultural Relativism and perhaps even the 'Noble Savage'



Your example amounts to nothing.  Obviously it was wrong of Europeans to slaughter these civilizations as it was for them to slaughter those victims of human sacrifice.  To be consistent as a relativist is to deny that there's anything wrong with either action.  Of course, much of what passes for cultural relativism really amounts to hating one's own culture.


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13974228 - 02/16/11 03:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

If you think my example amounts to nothing then you should probably re read it...

I AM saying that Spaniards were surprisingly more negative than the Aztecs/mayans when most people view the natives as negative

The mayans were ancient beyond the Spaniard/Roman's brain and eyes...They were not ready for what they saw...

AND because of that they performed a surprisingly more brutal act with no positive intent beyond that...

It is actually a perfect example of why Cultural relativism...is well...Relevant :shrug:

Again you do not understand because you are saying that people are "Cultural relativists" No...People simply UNDERSTAND other cultures THROUGH that philosophy...To call people "Cultural Relativists" is to miss the point...

THROUGH cultural relativism one may come to hate a corrupt racist culture that fails to understand Relativism in the first place...


Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 03:32 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13974304 - 02/16/11 03:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
If you think my example amounts to nothing then you should probably re read it...

I AM saying that Spaniards were surprisingly more negative than the Aztecs/mayans

The mayans were ancient beyond the Spaniard/Roman's brain and eyes...They were not ready for what they saw...

AND because of that they performed a surprisingly more brutal act with no positive intent beyond that...

It is actually a perfect example of why Cultural relativism...is well...Relevant :shrug:

Again you do not understand because you are saying that people are "Cultural relativists" No...People simply UNDERSTAND other cultures THROUGH that philosophy...To call people "Cultural Relativists" is to miss the point...



No, you're missing the point.  The Spaniards' inability to see their own atrocities does not necessitate equivocating between their culture and the Aztec culture.  It simply means that one must have some ability to reflect on one's own culture.  Cultural relativism can certainly help in coming to that position, but if you don't grow beyond that, then you're just stuck in a position of moral nihilism.  The mature position is not "my culture is better" or "their culture is better" or "they have their culture, I have mine."  To actually get somewhere meaningful, you have to ask "What can our cultures learn from one another?"  And that is not a new phenomenon, BTW.  Cultural syncretism is as old as civilization itself.  There are tribes in New Guinea that walk around half-naked and live in grass huts, yet have seen most of the top Hollywood blockbusters that have come out in recent years.  I think this is great.  They've decided which aspects of their culture they want to hold onto and which Western influences they enjoy.  When you step beyond cultural relativism into cultural syncretism, then real progress is made.

Quote:

THROUGH cultural relativism one may come to hate a corrupt racist culture that fails to understand Relativism in the first place...



The idea that you would want to "hate" a culture tells me that you don't understand the first thing about cultural relativism.  Because if you're learning about other cultures, what you'll find is that just about every culture is ethnocentric.


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13974360 - 02/16/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
If you think my example amounts to nothing then you should probably re read it...

I AM saying that Spaniards were surprisingly more negative than the Aztecs/mayans

The mayans were ancient beyond the Spaniard/Roman's brain and eyes...They were not ready for what they saw...

AND because of that they performed a surprisingly more brutal act with no positive intent beyond that...

It is actually a perfect example of why Cultural relativism...is well...Relevant :shrug:

Again you do not understand because you are saying that people are "Cultural relativists" No...People simply UNDERSTAND other cultures THROUGH that philosophy...To call people "Cultural Relativists" is to miss the point...



No, you're missing the point.  The Spaniards' inability to see their own atrocities does not necessitate equivocating between their culture and the Aztec culture.  It simply means that one must have some ability to reflect on one's own culture.  Cultural relativism can certainly help in coming to that position, but if you don't grow beyond that, then you're just stuck in a position of moral nihilism.  The mature position is not "my culture is better" or "their culture is better" or "they have their culture, I have mine."  To actually get somewhere meaningful, you have to ask "What can our cultures learn from one another?"  And that is not a new phenomenon, BTW.  Cultural syncretism is as old as civilization itself.  There are tribes in New Guinea that walk around half-naked and live in grass huts, yet have seen most of the top Hollywood blockbusters that have come out in recent years.  I think this is great.  They've decided which aspects of their culture they want to hold onto and which Western influences they enjoy.  When you step beyond cultural relativism into cultural syncretism, then real progress is made.

Quote:

THROUGH cultural relativism one may come to hate a corrupt racist culture that fails to understand Relativism in the first place...



The idea that you would want to "hate" a culture tells me that you don't understand the first thing about cultural relativism.  Because if you're learning about other cultures, what you'll find is that just about every culture is ethnocentric.




No no...It is THROUGH Cultural relativism that I can see the arrogance and blindness of other cultures, Some have more of this attribute than others...Because you can compare cultures, and all are "Ethnocentric" because all peoples have their prides...

But again you were trying to play the negative game with African and natives tribes by singling out Human sacrifice and genital manipulation, Yet when I point out the Negativity of our own culture and its ancestors you get butthurt?

Dont accuse me of not understanding other Cultures accurately and fairly...Which is Cultural relativism...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13974403 - 02/16/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
No no...It is THROUGH Cultural relativism that I can see the arrogance and blindness of other cultures, Some have more of this attribute than others...Because you can compare cultures, and all are "Ethnocentric" because all peoples have their prides...



You said "THROUGH cultural relativism one may come to hate a corrupt racist culture that fails to understand Relativism in the first place..."(emphasis mine).  Applying this standard consistently, it would then be incumbent upon you to hate every culture in existence.

Quote:

But again you were trying to play the negative game with African and natives tribes by singling out Human sacrifice and genital manipulation, Yet when I point out the Negativity of our own culture and its ancestors you get butthurt?



No one's getting butthurt here but you.  As the descendant of a prominent, slave-owning family from Georgia, I have plenty of negativity about my ancestors already.  I am in no way defending my own culture.  I am talking about the shortcomings of cultural relativism.

Quote:

Dont accuse me of not understanding other Cultures accurately and fairly...Which is Cultural relativism...



Where did I accuse you of this?


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13974475 - 02/16/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
No no...It is THROUGH Cultural relativism that I can see the arrogance and blindness of other cultures, Some have more of this attribute than others...Because you can compare cultures, and all are "Ethnocentric" because all peoples have their prides...



You said "THROUGH cultural relativism one may come to hate a corrupt racist culture that fails to understand Relativism in the first place..."(emphasis mine).  Applying this standard consistently, it would then be incumbent upon you to hate every culture in existence.

Quote:

But again you were trying to play the negative game with African and natives tribes by singling out Human sacrifice and genital manipulation, Yet when I point out the Negativity of our own culture and its ancestors you get butthurt?



No one's getting butthurt here but you.  As the descendant of a prominent, slave-owning family from Georgia, I have plenty of negativity about my ancestors already.  I am in no way defending my own culture.  I am talking about the shortcomings of cultural relativism.

Quote:

Dont accuse me of not understanding other Cultures accurately and fairly...Which is Cultural relativism...



Where did I accuse you of this?




Wether I hate them or not is my own choice...Its not because I do not understand them... And its not that I hate the early Spaniards or romans/Europeans ..I just see them as surprisingly more poisonous (literally as well as figuratively) than any native of any part of the world...

And the fact that they saw the other cultures of humans as inferior to their "Moral Society" to the point of absolute destruction of them as a civilization Is a pretty accurate example of Cultural relativism...

So again I dont understand when you say...I'm "Missing the point" And that it "Amounts to nothing" Indeed it amounts to quite a bit seeing that the Society of the Spaniards is pretty much responsible for our existence where we are sitting at in America right now...


Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 04:19 PM)


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13974511 - 02/16/11 04:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
Wether I hate them or not is my own choice...Its not because I do not understand them... And its not that I hate the early Spaniards or romans/Europeans ..I just see them as surprisingly more poisonous (literally as well as figuratively) than any native of any part of the world...

And the fact that they saw the other cultures of humans as inferior to their "Moral Society" to the point of absolute destruction of them as a civilization Is a pretty accurate example of Cultural relativism...

So again I dont understand when you say...I'm "Missing the point" And that it "Amounts to nothing" Indeed it amounts to quite a bit seeing that the Society of the Spaniards is pretty much responsible for our existence where we are sitting at in America right now...



Again, from the cultural relativist standpoint, you have no more right to condemn the Spaniards than they had to condemn the Aztecs.  Also, you completely missed the point about hating other cultures.  It's not just European cultures that are ethnocentric.  It's every culture on the planet, with modern cosmopolitan westerners being among the least ethnocentric.  Western culture is what developed cultural relativism to begin with.  Thus, if you're to judge a culture based on how ethnocentric it is, then by all accounts, you should be praising Western culture.


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13974607 - 02/16/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
Wether I hate them or not is my own choice...Its not because I do not understand them... And its not that I hate the early Spaniards or romans/Europeans ..I just see them as surprisingly more poisonous (literally as well as figuratively) than any native of any part of the world...

And the fact that they saw the other cultures of humans as inferior to their "Moral Society" to the point of absolute destruction of them as a civilization Is a pretty accurate example of Cultural relativism...

So again I dont understand when you say...I'm "Missing the point" And that it "Amounts to nothing" Indeed it amounts to quite a bit seeing that the Society of the Spaniards is pretty much responsible for our existence where we are sitting at in America right now...



Again, from the cultural relativist standpoint, you have no more right to condemn the Spaniards than they had to condemn the Aztecs.  Also, you completely missed the point about hating other cultures.  It's not just European cultures that are ethnocentric.  It's every culture on the planet, with modern cosmopolitan westerners being among the least ethnocentric.  Western culture is what developed cultural relativism to begin with.  Thus, if you're to judge a culture based on how ethnocentric it is, then by all accounts, you should be praising Western culture.






Western society the least ethnocentric? :facepalm:

Did it ever occur to you that other cultures had the idea of Cultural relativism before some white guy discovers it, mainly in the light of our own prejudices that we even understood it...

LOL its almost too arrogant to believe...Ever hear of Buddhism? The ideas of Relativism and transcending our cultural paradigm most definitely precedes Western society and language...

That is why I said in the beginning that Cultural relativism is much deeper than sociology..But im not actually expecting you to read/understand my posts...


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13974682 - 02/16/11 04:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
Western society the least ethnocentric? :facepalm:



Yes.  Cosmopolitanism is a product of modernity, which came about first in the West.  It has certainly spread to other cultures, particularly in East Asia, but even there, ethnocentrism remains stronger than in more individualistic Western societies.

Quote:

Did it ever occur to you that other cultures had the idea of Cultural relativism before some white guy discovers it, mainly in the light of our own prejudices that we even understood it...



Arriving at a position of relativism tends to come from cultural development, so I don't claim that Western culture is the only culture that can reach cultural relativism.  I'm saying that in practice, they were the first culture to do so.

Quote:

LOL its almost too arrogant to believe...Ever hear of Buddhism? The ideas of Relativism and transcending our cultural paradigm most definitely precedes Western society and language...



I know plenty about Buddhism, and cultural relativism is not in its teachings.  Indeed, the Buddha claimed to have found a set of universal truths, which is hardly a relativist position.  I also know that a Buddhist regime in Japan declared Christianity illegal and sought to eradicate it from the country.  So much for cultural relativism.

Quote:

That is why I said in the beginning that Cultural relativism is much deeper than sociology..But im not actually expecting you to read/understand my posts...



Enlighten me, then.  If cultural relativism is "much deeper than sociology," what is it, then?  You have been contradicting yourself throughout this debate, and I have simply been pointing out those contradictions.


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13974696 - 02/16/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Cultural relativism can be as dangerous as ethnocentrism if carried too far.  How can a cultural relativist address things like female genital mutilation, or honor killings?  They just have to throw their hands up and be like "Well, it's their culture."  I say this as someone who majored in both sociology and anthropology.




How can one advocate for that position without being labeled a bigot?


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: DieCommie]
    #13974704 - 02/16/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Cultural relativism can be as dangerous as ethnocentrism if carried too far.  How can a cultural relativist address things like female genital mutilation, or honor killings?  They just have to throw their hands up and be like "Well, it's their culture."  I say this as someone who majored in both sociology and anthropology.




How can one advocate for that position without being labeled a bigot?



Depends how you frame your position and who's doing the labeling.


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13974820 - 02/16/11 05:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
Western society the least ethnocentric? :facepalm:



Yes.  Cosmopolitanism is a product of modernity, which came about first in the West.  It has certainly spread to other cultures, particularly in East Asia, but even there, ethnocentrism remains stronger than in more individualistic Western societies.

Quote:

Did it ever occur to you that other cultures had the idea of Cultural relativism before some white guy discovers it, mainly in the light of our own prejudices that we even understood it...



Arriving at a position of relativism tends to come from cultural development, so I don't claim that Western culture is the only culture that can reach cultural relativism.  I'm saying that in practice, they were the first culture to do so.

Quote:

LOL its almost too arrogant to believe...Ever hear of Buddhism? The ideas of Relativism and transcending our cultural paradigm most definitely precedes Western society and language...



I know plenty about Buddhism, and cultural relativism is not in its teachings.  Indeed, the Buddha claimed to have found a set of universal truths, which is hardly a relativist position.  I also know that a Buddhist regime in Japan declared Christianity illegal and sought to eradicate it from the country.  So much for cultural relativism.

Quote:

That is why I said in the beginning that Cultural relativism is much deeper than sociology..But im not actually expecting you to read/understand my posts...



Enlighten me, then.  If cultural relativism is "much deeper than sociology," what is it, then?  You have been contradicting yourself throughout this debate, and I have simply been pointing out those contradictions.




You still are referring to "Relativists" its not that you are a "Relativist" Its simply the ACT of of understanding and or transcending your own culture...

Buddhism is FULL of these examples...Read the life of Bhudda, his whole life was spent discovering which teachings were accurate to solving the problems of human suffering, and he literally transcended ideas of extreme self denial that was apparent in surrounding Asian/Indian beliefs...

This is only a small example...Alexander the great knew plenty about 'Cultural Relativism'

You want to be enlightened by what that means? Sadly you simply do not understand that ideas predate and transcend language so any culture in any point of time could of Discovered "Cultural Relativism"

The only reason the Asian countries defended against White man's religion is because they saw what White man had done in other Countries and to other peoples COUGH COUGH
More fucking power to them...

The very fact you said that shows how little you understand...


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13974896 - 02/16/11 05:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
You still are referring to "Relativists" its not that you are a "Relativist" Its simply the ACT of of understanding and or transcending your own culture...



That is not cultural relativism.  Cultural relativism is the position that we cannot judge the practices of other cultures because we have our own cultural bias.

Quote:

Buddhism is FULL of these examples...Read the life of Bhudda, his whole life was spent discovering which teachings were accurate to solving the problems of human suffering, and he literally transcended ideas of extreme self denial that was apparent in surrounding Asian/Indian beliefs...



Again, that is not cultural relativism.  That is pragmatism: experimenting to see what works.  It is the basis of the scientific method.  There is nothing that culturally relativist about that.

Quote:

This is only a small example...Alexander the great knew plenty about 'Cultural Relativism'



Since Alexander the Great was a Westerner, wouldn't that reinforce my point about cultural relativism arising in the West?  Of course, the fact is that he wasn't a cultural relativist, but a syncretist.  But you don't seem to understand the difference.

Quote:

You want to be enlightened by what that means? Sadly you simply do not understand that ideas predate and transcend language so any culture in any point of time could of Discovered "Cultural Relativism"



Evidence?  The fact is that we see cultural relativism most prominently in the modern west.  That is not to imply that it's a uniquely Western phenomenon.

Quote:

The only reason the Asian countries defended against White man's religion is because they saw what White man had done in other Countries and to other peoples COUGH COUGH
More fucking power to them...



You sound just like an ethnocentric Westerner denouncing Islam within their country.  How incredibly bigoted and ethnocentric of you.

Quote:

The very fact you said that shows how little you understand...



:lmafo:


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13974936 - 02/16/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
You still are referring to "Relativists" its not that you are a "Relativist" Its simply the ACT of of understanding and or transcending your own culture...



That is not cultural relativism.  Cultural relativism is the position that we cannot judge the practices of other cultures because we have our own cultural bias.

Quote:

Buddhism is FULL of these examples...Read the life of Bhudda, his whole life was spent discovering which teachings were accurate to solving the problems of human suffering, and he literally transcended ideas of extreme self denial that was apparent in surrounding Asian/Indian beliefs...



Again, that is not cultural relativism.  That is pragmatism: experimenting to see what works.  It is the basis of the scientific method.  There is nothing that culturally relativist about that.

Quote:

This is only a small example...Alexander the great knew plenty about 'Cultural Relativism'



Since Alexander the Great was a Westerner, wouldn't that reinforce my point about cultural relativism arising in the West?  Of course, the fact is that he wasn't a cultural relativist, but a syncretist.  But you don't seem to understand the difference.

Quote:

You want to be enlightened by what that means? Sadly you simply do not understand that ideas predate and transcend language so any culture in any point of time could of Discovered "Cultural Relativism"



Evidence?  The fact is that we see cultural relativism most prominently in the modern west.  That is not to imply that it's a uniquely Western phenomenon.

Quote:

The only reason the Asian countries defended against White man's religion is because they saw what White man had done in other Countries and to other peoples COUGH COUGH
More fucking power to them...



You sound just like an ethnocentric Westerner denouncing Islam within their country.  How incredibly bigoted and ethnocentric of you.

Quote:

The very fact you said that shows how little you understand...



:lmafo:





Alexander the great was the last of the Greeks on the scene before the Romans burnt down Alexandria and took over and killed the Greeks...

Modern Western society is more linked with The Romans and hardly at all connected with the Greeks...

This is why I used Alexander as an example...But some of us like to steal the beauty of the Greeks and claim it as their own...Aka the Romans... aka us...


You can deny what Im saying/not understand my posts all you want :shrug:

The story of Buddha is a perfect example...He transcends his own biased culture and understands and lives multiples philosophies of the east...Buddhism is the fucking manifestation of relativism and tolerance.


Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 05:46 PM)


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13975008 - 02/16/11 06:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't even know why you bother with this guy silversoul. He is just another typical liberal moralist that thinks he is superior because he hates the "right people" (ie. Americans, Europeans, Israel, Christians, Jews, etc.).

Though it is pretty entertaining to watch you tare his arguments apart :grin:.


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #13975021 - 02/16/11 06:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
Alexander the great was the last of the Greeks on the scene before the Romans burnt down Alexandria and took over and killed the Greeks...

Modern Western society is more linked with The Romans and hardly at all connected with the Greeks...



Complete and utter nonsense.  Ancient Greek culture is the foundation of Western civilization.  Who do you think the Romans got most of their ideas from?

Quote:

This is why I used Alexander as an example...But some of us like to steal the beauty of the Greeks and claim it as our own...Aka the Romans... aka us...



I love how you talk about "stealing" their beauty as if it belonged strictly to them.  Cultural appropriation is a natural part of syncretism, which is what Alexander the Great engaged in.

Quote:

You can deny what Im saying/not understand my posts all you want :shrug:



I do and will continue to do so, because you demonstrate quite consistently that you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:

The story of Buddha is a perfect example...He transcends his own biased culture and understands and lives multiples philosophies of the east...Buddhism is the fucking manifestation of relativism and tolerance.



Oh yeah?  Then explain the persecution of Muslims in Burma.  How about the support among Japanese Buddhists for imperialism in the years leading up to World War II?  What about the Sri Lankan government's persecution of the Hindu Tamil minority?  You claim to promote cultural understanding, and yet in putting these other cultures on a pedestal, you remain ignorant of their culture.  Real cultural understanding means understanding the positives and negatives and working to strengthen the former while minimizing the latter.


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13975071 - 02/16/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

This thread has too many replies for me to read it all at the moment.

Freshman year of college I took an anthro class.  One of the best classes I took during my entire time at college (3 semesters lol).

That class was the ONLY class for which I read EVERY book I was assigned, and read it in its entirety, not just the assigned readings or portions thereof.  The only exception was the course textbook (kinda dry) which I still read 80%+ of.

Anthropology is very important.  It's important to understand culture and people.  Really, it's a very psychedelic thing minus the drugs because you understand that everything (and everyone) is so similar everywhere, yet there are variations, slight differences on a base of similarity.


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13975100 - 02/16/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
Alexander the great was the last of the Greeks on the scene before the Romans burnt down Alexandria and took over and killed the Greeks...

Modern Western society is more linked with The Romans and hardly at all connected with the Greeks...



Complete and utter nonsense.  Ancient Greek culture is the foundation of Western civilization.  Who do you think the Romans got most of their ideas from?

Quote:

This is why I used Alexander as an example...But some of us like to steal the beauty of the Greeks and claim it as our own...Aka the Romans... aka us...



I love how you talk about "stealing" their beauty as if it belonged strictly to them.  Cultural appropriation is a natural part of syncretism, which is what Alexander the Great engaged in.

Quote:

You can deny what Im saying/not understand my posts all you want :shrug:



I do and will continue to do so, because you demonstrate quite consistently that you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:

The story of Buddha is a perfect example...He transcends his own biased culture and understands and lives multiples philosophies of the east...Buddhism is the fucking manifestation of relativism and tolerance.



Oh yeah?  Then explain the persecution of Muslims in Burma.  How about the support among Japanese Buddhists for imperialism in the years leading up to World War II?  What about the Sri Lankan government's persecution of the Hindu Tamil minority?  You claim to promote cultural understanding, and yet in putting these other cultures on a pedestal, you remain ignorant of their culture.  Real cultural understanding means understanding the positives and negatives and working to strengthen the former while minimizing the latter.




The original Buddha and what Modern "Buddhist" do is irrelevant and not connected...

The same story is accurate to the Original Christ..And what later "Christians" did...

Im not a sociology major...And Im not restricted by definitions...But my understanding of this is def not less than yours...:shrug:


And Fuck "Setb" who the fuck is that?


Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 06:26 PM)


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13975111 - 02/16/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
The original Buddha and what Modern "Buddhist" do is irrelevant...

The same story is accurate to the Original Christ..And what later "Christians" did...



Indeed, both figures were ahead of their time, but we're talking cultures here, not individuals.

Quote:

Again Im not a sociology major...And Im not restricted by definitions...



Definitions are how words are understood.  If you're not "restricted" by definitions, then you're just talking gibberish.

Quote:

But my understanding of this is def not less than yours...:shrug:



You've demonstrated quite clearly that it is.


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13975141 - 02/16/11 06:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
The original Buddha and what Modern "Buddhist" do is irrelevant...

The same story is accurate to the Original Christ..And what later "Christians" did...



Indeed, both figures were ahead of their time, but we're talking cultures here, not individuals.

Quote:

Again Im not a sociology major...And Im not restricted by definitions...



Definitions are how words are understood.  If you're not "restricted" by definitions, then you're just talking gibberish.

Quote:

But my understanding of this is def not less than yours...:shrug:



You've demonstrated quite clearly that it is.




No...Definitions are the restrictions of language that you have put around your perception of the topic...This is exactly why you can't understand that cultural relativism is older than American society...But that is so easy to understand, yet you fail to...

The letter killeth :pipesmoke:


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #13975148 - 02/16/11 06:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
No...Definitions are the restrictions of language that you have put around your perception of the topic...This is exactly why you can't understand that cultural relativism is older than American society...But that is so easy to understand, yet you fail to...



I see...so it's easy to understand once words no longer have meaning.  Okay, Jared Loughner.  Nice chat.


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #13975155 - 02/16/11 06:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Cultural relativism is surely as old as the first time in human history somebody noticed that people from different cities had different customs. The name, "cultural relativism" is what's new.

Of course, it's not really necessary to veil my entire post in pseudo-mystical hooey to get the point across.


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You really are the worst kind of person.



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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Silversoul]
    #13975171 - 02/16/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
No...Definitions are the restrictions of language that you have put around your perception of the topic...This is exactly why you can't understand that cultural relativism is older than American society...But that is so easy to understand, yet you fail to...



I see...so it's easy to understand once words no longer have meaning.  Okay, Jared Loughner.  Nice chat.



Comparing me too Jared loughner is probably one the lamest things youve said yet :etbig:

And surprisingly expected...Watch less television


Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 06:42 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #13975178 - 02/16/11 06:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Careful not to ascribe too much meaning to his words now...


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: DieCommie]
    #13975180 - 02/16/11 06:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Careful not to ascribe too much meaning to his words now...



:rofl:


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #13975187 - 02/16/11 06:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Cultural relativism is surely as old as the first time in human history somebody noticed that people from different cities had different customs. The name, "cultural relativism" is what's new.

Of course, it's not really necessary to veil my entire post in pseudo-mystical hooey to get the point across.




Simply because you cant :shrug:

But thanks for recognizing that simple point


Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 06:44 PM)


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13975203 - 02/16/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Wrong. I'm actually really good at obfuscation, I just prefer to make my points clearly and concisely. :smirk:


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #13975226 - 02/16/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Wrong. I'm actually really good at obfuscation, I just prefer to make my points clearly and concisely. :smirk:




You prefer to take stabs at me with smalls words...But I dont mind :etbig:


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica] * 1
    #13975233 - 02/16/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You don't need a big knife when you're going for the jugular :evil:


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #13975270 - 02/16/11 06:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
You don't need a big knife when you're going for the jugular :evil:




You'll need a bigger knife :yoda2:


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #13975296 - 02/16/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i beleive tha the west virtually came-up with cultural relativism, i mean. Obviously not everyone in the west, but the practice of anthropology arose in the west, but focused on smaller societies that sociology did not really look at,

and cultural relativism arose through anthological practices, so i guess tthat makes it a western creation.
other cultures are just as if not more enthocentric than the U.S>A, its just that if some small country hates us, we dont really feel it. However , if the untied states hates a small country, we go and rape thier land children and recourcees :shrug:


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13975306 - 02/16/11 07:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

'Cultural Relativism" was RE discovered and institutionalized through education by Modern western society...

Fixed


Edited by TeamAmerica (02/16/11 07:06 PM)


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13975314 - 02/16/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

realfuzzhead said:
i beleive tha the west virtually came-up with cultural relativism, i mean. Obviously not everyone in the west, but the practice of anthropology arose in the west, but focused on smaller societies that sociology did not really look at,

and cultural relativism arose through anthological practices, so i guess tthat makes it a western creation.
other cultures are just as if not more enthocentric than the U.S>A, its just that if some small country hates us, we dont really feel it. However , if the untied states hates a small country, we go and rape thier land children and recourcees :shrug:




On that note,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning_kruger_effect

Hypocrisy runs deep.

"...your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciations of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade, and solemnity, are, to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy—a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices, more shocking and bloody, than are the people of these United States, at this very hour."

-Frederick Douglass


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #13975319 - 02/16/11 07:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

idk man, before westerners modernized the world cultural relativism was irrelevent, the world wasnt globalized. Cultures rarely interacted in a basis that we could even compare to today. And just because countries in ancient times traded doesnt mean they reserved thier judgement on the way other societies behave


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13975328 - 02/16/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

caine i understand your post but was that directed at me or somethin?:confused:


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13975336 - 02/16/11 07:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think my point is proven by the fact that we even call ourselves "westerners."
:shrug:

And no, it wasn't directed at you. I just couldn't figure out a better way to put it.


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: Caine]
    #13975344 - 02/16/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

yeah i get ya. But i mean technically speaking, me and my recent ansestery have resided in the "West"

wait wtf.. its a globe. who set's west east north and south? why cant north be wesT?

dunning_korger effect indeed.


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Re: America would be a better place [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #13975349 - 02/16/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

realfuzzhead said:
idk man, before westerners modernized the world cultural relativism was irrelevent, the world wasnt globalized. Cultures rarely interacted in a basis that we could even compare to today. And just because countries in ancient times traded doesnt mean they reserved thier judgement on the way other societies behave




I dont know if its fair to say that...But yes the modern day is Def an Economical explosion of trade, that is an ultimate disaster if anything...

Cultures definitely interacted in ancient days...


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Invisiblesetb
10th level beer nerd

Registered: 01/30/11 Happy 13th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 2,580
Re: America would be a better place [Re: Caine]
    #13975367 - 02/16/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
I think my point is proven by the fact that we even call ourselves "westerners."
:shrug:

And no, it wasn't directed at you. I just couldn't figure out a better way to put it.




I find it funny that you hate the US but at the same time take full advantage of the resources and lifestyle of the western world.


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 2,954
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: America would be a better place [Re: setb]
    #13975382 - 02/16/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

setb said:
Quote:

Caine said:
I think my point is proven by the fact that we even call ourselves "westerners."
:shrug:

And no, it wasn't directed at you. I just couldn't figure out a better way to put it.




I find it funny that you hate the US but at the same time take full advantage of the resources and lifestyle of the western world.




I find that statement as irrelevant as your last

Funny indeed...


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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 10,783
Loc: above the smog layer Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: America would be a better place [Re: setb]
    #13975385 - 02/16/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i dont think he hates the "western world", he is just stating that calling ourselves westerners while trying to take a holistic approach to the world is .. idk, retarted? immature?

were all human beings, i have just as much in common gentically with someone from another race as i do with people in my own race. (if you look at ALL TRAITS, not just the highlighted ones used to promote racism , big lips, freckles, hairy chest etc)


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InvisibleCaine
lab rat
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Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 3,920
Loc: NE
Re: America would be a better place [Re: setb]
    #13975390 - 02/16/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

setb said:
I find it funny that you hate the US but at the same time take full advantage of the resources and lifestyle of the western world.




Why wouldn't I take advantage of its resources?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes."
-Walt Whitman


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Invisiblesetb
10th level beer nerd

Registered: 01/30/11 Happy 13th Shroomiversary!
Posts: 2,580
Re: America would be a better place [Re: Caine]
    #13975395 - 02/16/11 07:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
Quote:

setb said:
I find it funny that you hate the US but at the same time take full advantage of the resources and lifestyle of the western world.




Why wouldn't I take advantage of its resources?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes."
-Walt Whitman




You wouldn't because it makes you look like a giant hypocrite.


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InvisibleCaine
lab rat
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Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 3,920
Loc: NE
Re: America would be a better place [Re: setb]
    #13975418 - 02/16/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Does it?
Think about what you're saying. Taking advantage of a country's resources does not seem like hypocrisy to me, it just seems like more for me and less for everyone else.

You should know that I'm quite egocentric, in the most literal sense of the word. I will never be you, so why should I care that you think I'm a hypocrite? While you're explaining that I'll be leeching some more resources, thank you very much.


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InvisibleCaine
lab rat
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Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 3,920
Loc: NE
Re: America would be a better place [Re: Caine]
    #13975431 - 02/16/11 07:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Oh and if that wasn't a good enough response for you, the fact that I've breached the metacognitive barrier proposed by the Dunning-Kruger effect should be enough to argue against my hypocrisy. You're only a hypocrite in this circumstance when you fail to realize it. Why else would I have linked to that? Clearly you missed the point of the article :nonono:


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 2,954
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: America would be a better place [Re: Caine]
    #13975454 - 02/16/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Trollin


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InvisibleCaine
lab rat
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Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 3,920
Loc: NE
Re: America would be a better place [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #13975470 - 02/16/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:werd:

I like arguing though, so it's ok.


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Registered: 12/02/08
Posts: 2,954
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: America would be a better place [Re: Caine]
    #13975474 - 02/16/11 07:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
:werd:

I like arguing though, so it's ok.




But this guy isn't arguing...Hes just insulting you :lol:


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Offlineauxiliary
Mr.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 2,278
Loc: Thatoneville
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: America would be a better place [Re: Caine]
    #13975491 - 02/16/11 07:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

America would be a better place if it could swim and fly. Maybe laser beeming too


--------------------


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Offlinemikeybagz
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 51
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: America would be a better place [Re: auxiliary]
    #13988057 - 02/19/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

If drugs were legal.
Or if there was no money.


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