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OfflineUzziel
O_o


Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 11,689
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #13994998 - 02/20/11 10:56 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

AlteredAgain said:
My stance on this has evolved over time. My conclusion to this date is that a plant based whole food diet is the natural foundation of a healthy human being. Plant based doesn't mean only plants however, so don't let it be confused with that. A plant based diet may incorporate meat, but it uses meat as a supplement, not as a basic source of nourishment. I think Western culture in particular has gotten it all backwards by viewing animal products as a foundation of nutrition, almost as if vegetables on the dinner table are just a supplement on the side dish next to the main course of turkey in the middle of the table (for example). People in general also eat FAR too much meat than necessary. Very small amounts are enough. The diseased effects of overeating on society as a whole are no secret.




You got it all wrong..in the past for thousands and thousands of years the human diet was almost strictly meat... I'm pretty sure MEAT is the foundation of the human diet and there is plenty of historical evidence of this as well. However, I think meat is a small staple in a diet but it lays down the foundation.. after meat comes nuts and fruits and after that come veggies after which comes grain.

Do I believe people eat too much meat? Yes... but then again, if you look at america, people eat TOO MUCH period..


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Offlinelasttime
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Registered: 05/01/09
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: Uzziel]
    #13995013 - 02/20/11 10:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

godisanastronaut -

Umm, what I posted IS a causality! The societies were healthy UNTIL they started eating refined foods. If you read his book, you will have no question about this.

Uzziel -

I'm glad to see someone else who knows their shit. Humans as we know, according to most scientists, began evolving when we started eating more meat, it helped our brain grow bigger or something like that. There is lots of propaganda supporting vegetarianism because, guess what, there's a way higher profit margin off of selling grains than selling meat. Agriculture industry trumps meat industry by many times.


Edited by lasttime (02/20/11 10:59 AM)


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OfflineMoxyOx
Grazin'

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 1,439
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: lasttime] * 1
    #13995140 - 02/20/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

http://beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1a.shtml

This has an abundance of information on the topic. It's free, so consider giving it a read when you have the time.


--------------------
No one behind, no one ahead.
The path the ancients cleared has closed.
And the other path, everyone's path,
easy and wide, goes nowhere.
I am alone and find my way.


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Offlinegodisanastronaut
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Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 273
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Vegetarianism [Re: lasttime]
    #13995166 - 02/20/11 11:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
Quote:

AlteredAgain said:
My stance on this has evolved over time. My conclusion to this date is that a plant based whole food diet is the natural foundation of a healthy human being. Plant based doesn't mean only plants however, so don't let it be confused with that. A plant based diet may incorporate meat, but it uses meat as a supplement, not as a basic source of nourishment. I think Western culture in particular has gotten it all backwards by viewing animal products as a foundation of nutrition, almost as if vegetables on the dinner table are just a supplement on the side dish next to the main course of turkey in the middle of the table (for example). People in general also eat FAR too much meat than necessary. Very small amounts are enough. The diseased effects of overeating on society as a whole are no secret.




You got it all wrong..in the past for thousands and thousands of years the human diet was almost strictly meat... I'm pretty sure MEAT is the foundation of the human diet and there is plenty of historical evidence of this as well. However, I think meat is a small staple in a diet but it lays down the foundation.. after meat comes nuts and fruits and after that come veggies after which comes grain.

Do I believe people eat too much meat? Yes... but then again, if you look at america, people eat TOO MUCH period..





as far as i know, the hunter-gatherer theory is not that proved at all. in fact, it's pretty much at stake:

Quote:

"Our intelligence, cooperation and many other features we have as modern humans developed from our attempts to out-smart the predator,"


(Ph.D. Robert W. Sussman from washington university)

the idea is pretty much that intelligence helped our ancestors to survive - instead of being the idealized cave men who go hunt and kill tigers etc. you always gotta keep in mind that it was an hostile environment and ppl were struggling with live. they dont have high fences and stuff like that. they dont go out to confront huge ass prey.
if you think about apes (being our next-to ancestors), they don't eat meat regularly. they do, not as a foundation, but as an addition to the diet.



Quote:

lasttime said:
godisanastronaut -

Umm, what I posted IS a causality! The societies were healthy UNTIL they started eating refined foods. If you read his book, you will have no question about this.

Uzziel -

I'm glad to see someone else who knows their shit. Humans as we know, according to most scientists, began evolving when we started eating more meat, it helped our brain grow bigger or something like that. There is lots of propaganda supporting vegetarianism because, guess what, there's a way higher profit margin off of selling grains than selling meat. Agriculture industry trumps meat industry by many times.





sorry some misunderstanding, my english's not the best. but still the statistical theory applies.

and to say that our ancestors ate more meat and therefore their brain grew, that's simply crap, no offense. there's no concensus about the reasons for our brain to grow to that extraordniary size. there are plenty of theories, the most appealing, i find, are either that it grew as our social environment and language began to evolve or that we ate too much shrooms (see Terence McKenna). Meat will certainly have a minor role in this, i'm sure.

and saying that vegetarism is propaganda performed by big corporations or something like this is just hilarious :shrug:


--------------------


All things are true. God's an Astronaut. Oz is Over the Rainbow, and Midian is where the monsters live.


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Offlinepriestess
seeker


Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 67
Loc: here and now
Last seen: 6 years, 13 days
Re: Vegetarianism [Re: floatingupstream] * 2
    #13995248 - 02/20/11 12:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I've taken baby steps toward a vegan diet for the past two years (never in a million years would have thought I'd be vegan... crazy how life works out)...
I've noticed a HUGE difference in my energy levels, and I've come to the conclusion that eating has so much more to do with well-being than just nutrition. When you eat meat, you're not just eating iron and protein and b-vitamins and all that good stuff... you're also eating death and cruelty and violence and corporate greed, and it effects you whether you think it does or not. I didn't know I carried the burden of eating animals until I stopped eating them, and felt like a huge weight was lifted. I feel a much greater sense of freedom, exuberance, and partnership with the earth and those around me. I also feel much more in tune with myself, and a a greater love for my body and my health.
The main difference is getting your energy from life instead of death or theft. Think about it... plants are alive- flowers bloom once they're cut, fruit ripens on your kitchen table- plants are alive until they rot and start to decompose and then you obviously don't eat them. Meat is dead, and dairy is manufactured from exploitation of sentient beings. It's no wonder you'd feel better eating a plant-based diet.
Also, animal protein is much harder to digest than plant protein. It sticks around longer and requires more energy to digest, which saps energy from the rest of you. Carnivores in the wild have specific enzymes in their stomachs to break down meat (also incredibly sharp teeth and claws), which we don't have. We also have an incredibly long intestinal tract, which is not designed to harbor slow-moving animal protein. A plant-based diet moves through your body with ease, and makes everything from your bowel movements to your energy levels to your creativity more fluid.
There are plant-based alternatives for every dairy or meat ingredient, there is no shortage of plant-based food, and I for one eat incredibly tasty food at every meal. A vegan diet does not have to be bland, boring, or difficult. It just takes a shift in views and a commitment to being creative about where you get your energy.
The human body will run off pretty much whatever you put into it... but don't you want to use the fuel that's absolutely best? The switch can be difficult at first, but your body and the universe will thank you in meaningful, tangible ways.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: lasttime]
    #13995301 - 02/20/11 12:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

lasttime said:
No, sorry but you're completely wrong. I spent  hundreds of hours researching this.
of all the primitive societies he visited, NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS VEGETARIAN.




i never said a word about vegetarianism. stop acting reactionary.

Quote:

lasttime said:
You got it all wrong.. I'm pretty sure MEAT is the foundation of the human diet and there is plenty of historical evidence of this as well. However, I think meat is a small staple in a diet but it lays down the foundation..




which now?

the healthiest people in the world are not those who the most meat.. but those who eat unrefined whole foods, plants and animals alike. increased disease enters with food refinement, chemical processing, and overeating.


--------------------


Edited by AlteredAgain (02/20/11 12:14 PM)


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Offlinelasttime
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #13995326 - 02/20/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

*sigh*, vegetarianism is a religion, as fasr as I'm concerned. It's like talking to fundamentalists. a good day to you, sirs. I'm done with this thread. anyone who is interested in their health should read Weston Price's "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration". Meat is as healthy as anything else; very nutrient-dense.

In fact, Stanley Owsley, sound engineer for the grateful dead, believes in a carnivorous diet. He has eaten nothing but meat for over 50 years in perfect health.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: lasttime]
    #13995347 - 02/20/11 12:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

you sir are arguing with your own claims. as i already said i made no reference to vegetarianism, nor did i state that meat is unhealthy. go back to your beloved scripture i guess. good day. :sun:


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Offlinegodisanastronaut
eurofag \o/


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 273
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Vegetarianism [Re: lasttime]
    #13995349 - 02/20/11 12:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i'm not even vegetarian :grin:


--------------------


All things are true. God's an Astronaut. Oz is Over the Rainbow, and Midian is where the monsters live.


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Offlinelasttime
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #13995381 - 02/20/11 12:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Oops, sorry altered - you're right!

I only glanced over your post when I saw the "the healthiest people don't eat meat" thing - a favorite of militant vegetarians. I agree with you, definitely - that was the whole point of Price's book.

Anyway, I have already laid out my position. best wishes to everyone in this thread


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: godisanastronaut]
    #13995384 - 02/20/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

funny how someone can denounce vegetarianism as a religion and then in the next sentence praise total carnivorism. :ooo:


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OfflineUzziel
O_o


Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 11,689
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: godisanastronaut]
    #13995404 - 02/20/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

godisanastronaut said:
as far as i know, the hunter-gatherer theory is not that proved at all. in fact, it's pretty much at stake:







No, it isn't. It is very well accepted in the historical community. Please provide evidence (that ISN'T a quote - an actual document) stating otherwise.

Quote:

godisanastronaut said:

the idea is pretty much that intelligence helped our ancestors to survive - instead of being the idealized cave men who go hunt and kill tigers etc. you always gotta keep in mind that it was an hostile environment and ppl were struggling with live. they dont have high fences and stuff like that. they dont go out to confront huge ass prey.
if you think about apes (being our next-to ancestors), they don't eat meat regularly. they do, not as a foundation, but as an addition to the diet.






HEY NICE BROSCIENCE GUY. But you're wrong. Yes, they did. Infact, they confronted so much "huge ass prey" that they caused the american mammoth to become extinct. Imagine that. You DON'T know what you are talking about, you're just mouthing bullshit.

Humans and apes are NOTHING ALIKE. Yes, we have "similar" DNA but uh..

Gorillas can convert plant matter and such to proteins / amino acids and we can't do that. They have a different digestive system and they don't HAVE to have meat, but meat is their easiest source of proteins and when they have the chance, they eat meat.

Got any more "I don't know what I'm talking about" claims you'd like to make?


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Offlinegodisanastronaut
eurofag \o/


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 273
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Vegetarianism [Re: Uzziel]
    #13995615 - 02/20/11 01:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
Quote:

godisanastronaut said:
as far as i know, the hunter-gatherer theory is not that proved at all. in fact, it's pretty much at stake:







No, it isn't. It is very well accepted in the historical community. Please provide evidence (that ISN'T a quote - an actual document) stating otherwise.

Quote:

godisanastronaut said:

the idea is pretty much that intelligence helped our ancestors to survive - instead of being the idealized cave men who go hunt and kill tigers etc. you always gotta keep in mind that it was an hostile environment and ppl were struggling with live. they dont have high fences and stuff like that. they dont go out to confront huge ass prey.
if you think about apes (being our next-to ancestors), they don't eat meat regularly. they do, not as a foundation, but as an addition to the diet.






HEY NICE BROSCIENCE GUY. But you're wrong. Yes, they did. Infact, they confronted so much "huge ass prey" that they caused the american mammoth to become extinct. Imagine that. You DON'T know what you are talking about, you're just mouthing bullshit.

Humans and apes are NOTHING ALIKE. Yes, we have "similar" DNA but uh..

Gorillas can convert plant matter and such to proteins / amino acids and we can't do that. They have a different digestive system and they don't HAVE to have meat, but meat is their easiest source of proteins and when they have the chance, they eat meat.

Got any more "I don't know what I'm talking about" claims you'd like to make?






okay dude, first of all, please dont attack me personally, i dont know you, you dont know me, we're talking about an
- apparently - delicate subject here and i got no personal interest in convincing anyone about my view of
things. and u pretty much insulted me here, and i dont like that. as i said, i'm not even vegetarian, just no fan of
massive meat-eating and the animal torturing that makes it possible.

so your first point: it's well accepted in the historical community. that's nice but also no argument. according to
a huge mass of people throughout the whole world the earth is created by an invisible omnipotent entity called
god. until Galileo Galilei came up with the "round earth" theory, the earth was flat for everyone, still this was
no fact. you know, knowledge is not about facts, the definition is somewhat odd: Justified true belief. just because
something is widely accepted, it's not objectively true. if it was, there'd be no need for further investigation,
hence science would come to a standstill.

about those mammoths i dont know. maybe you're right, maybe not - get some evidence (not plain correlation
please, that's not enough for me) on that and i believe you.

if you need evidence for that hunter-gatherer thing, please do some research yourself, it's just something
that popped into my mind because an anthropology professor at my university talked about that some time ago.

so your last point: humans and apes.
homo sapiens is around since about half a million years. but i'm not talking about that. brain evolution is
something that took place from about 4+ million years ago to now. right about that time when WE - genetically
speaking - were splitting from actual apes (common chimpanzee). that was the turning point, so to say. up
to that point, we were equal. and if you want to believe that apes pretty much stayed where they were 4
million years ago, you can see where we were at that point. why we started to walk upright some 500.000
years and the brain size roughly doubled in 3 million years is up for discussion. it was certainly
not caused because we ate big cats.
and what do gorillas have to do with that. of course we can't digest certain proteins or stuff like that.
that's all part of evolution. it's all right there. think about lactose intolerance - that's actually
the normal state. people drinking milk is something that has evolved along with genetic selection and agriculture.


--------------------


All things are true. God's an Astronaut. Oz is Over the Rainbow, and Midian is where the monsters live.


Edited by godisanastronaut (02/20/11 02:39 PM)


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OfflineUzziel
O_o


Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 11,689
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Vegetarianism [Re: godisanastronaut]
    #13995722 - 02/20/11 01:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not even really going to respond to you until you back up YOUR claim.

My evidence is clearly supported by people who actually spend their lives studying and documenting our past civilizations.

Yours however, is not supported (or it would be in textbooks, at least). Please provide evidence or stop posting.
Kthx.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: Uzziel]
    #13995739 - 02/20/11 01:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I haven't even been able to tell what your position is on this subject. Perhaps you could be more clear about your own.


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Offlinegodisanastronaut
eurofag \o/


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 273
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Vegetarianism [Re: Uzziel]
    #13995756 - 02/20/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
I'm not even really going to respond to you until you back up YOUR claim.

My evidence is clearly supported by people who actually spend their lives studying and documenting our past civilizations.

Yours however, is not supported (or it would be in textbooks, at least). Please provide evidence or stop posting.
Kthx.




here, i found someone who begs to differ. what do we do now?
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/12/16/0912510106.full.pdf


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All things are true. God's an Astronaut. Oz is Over the Rainbow, and Midian is where the monsters live.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: godisanastronaut]
    #13995760 - 02/20/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Colorectal cancer is the third most common cancer
and the third leading cause of cancer-related
mortality in both men and women in the United
States. Over the past decade, colorectal cancer
incidence and mortality rates have decreased in all
populations. Until age 50, men and women have
similar incidence and mortality rates; after age 50,
men are more vulnerable.

http://www.cancer.gov/aboutnci/servingpeople/snapshots/colorectal.pdf




http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/med/2006-0801-215153/Peeters_05_MeatFishandColorectalCancerRiskTheEuropean.pdf

Meat, Fish, and Colorectal Cancer Risk: The European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition

Journal of the National Cancer Institute, Vol. 97, No. 12, June 15, 2005



Current evidence suggests that high red meat
intake is associated with increased colorectal cancer risk. High fish intake may be associated with a decreased risk, but the existing evidence is less convincing.

Methods: We prospectively
followed 478 040 men and women from 10 European countries who were free of cancer at enrollment between 1992 and 1998. Information on diet and lifestyle was collected at baseline. After
a mean follow-up of 4.8 years, 1329 incident colorectal cancers
were documented. We examined the relationship between intakes of red and processed meat, poultry, and fish and colorectal cancer risk using a proportional hazards model adjusted for
age, sex, energy (nonfat and fat sources), height, weight, work related physical activity, smoking status, dietary fiber and folate, and alcohol consumption, stratifi ed by center. A calibration
substudy based on 36 994 subjects was used to correct hazard ratios (HRs) and 95% confi dence intervals (CIs) for diet
measurement errors. All statistical tests were two-sided. Results: Colorectal cancer risk was positively associated with intake of
red and processed meat (highest [>160 g/day] versus lowest [<20 g/day] intake, HR = 1.35, 95% CI = 0.96 to 1.88; P trend =.03) and inversely associated with intake of fi sh (>80 g/day versus <10 g/day, HR = 0.69, 95 % CI = 0.54 to 0.88; P trend <.001),
but was not related to poultry intake. Correcting for measurement error strengthened the associations between colorectal cancer and red and processed meat intake (per 100-g increase HR = 1.25, 95% CI =1.09 to 1.41, P trend = .001 and HR = 1.55,
95% CI = 1.19 to 2.02, P trend = .001 before and after calibration, respectively) and for fi sh (per 100 g increase HR = 0.70, 95%
CI = 0.57 to 0.87, P trend <.001 and HR = 0.46, 95% CI = 0.27 to 0.77, P trend = .003; before and after correction, respectively). In
this study population, the absolute risk of development of colorectal cancer within 10 years for a study subject aged 50 years was 1.71% for the highest category of red and processed
meat intake and 1.28% for the lowest category of intake and was 1.86% for subjects in the lowest category of fi sh intake and 1.28% for subjects in the highest category of fi sh intake.

Conclusions: Our data confirms that colorectal cancer risk is positively associated with high consumption of red and processed
meat and support an inverse association with fi sh intake. [J Natl Cancer Inst 2005;97:906–16]


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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Offlinegodisanastronaut
eurofag \o/


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 273
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Vegetarianism [Re: Uzziel]
    #13995765 - 02/20/11 01:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
I'm not even really going to respond to you until you back up YOUR claim.

My evidence is clearly supported by people who actually spend their lives studying and documenting our past civilizations.

Yours however, is not supported (or it would be in textbooks, at least). Please provide evidence or stop posting.
Kthx.




provide evidence for what? i am, constantly. i clearly differentiate between my views and between scientific statements. seriously, getcha grove on o_O

edit

here's what i was talking about:



Sussman and Hart's research is based on studying the fossil evidence dating back nearly seven million years. "Most theories on Man the Hunter fail to incorporate this key fossil evidence," Sussman says. "We wanted evidence, not just theory. We thoroughly examined literature available on the skulls, bones, footprints and on environmental evidence, both of our hominid ancestors and the predators that coexisted with them."

But what Sussman and Hart discovered is that Australopithecus afarensis was not dentally pre-adapted to eat meat. "It didn't have the sharp shearing blades necessary to retain and cut such foods," Sussman says. "These early humans simply couldn't eat meat. If they couldn't eat meat, why would they hunt?"

It was not possible for early humans to consume a large amount of meat until fire was controlled and cooking was possible. Sussman points out that the first tools didn't appear until two million years ago. And there wasn't good evidence of fire until after 800,000 years ago. "In fact, some archaeologists and paleontologists don't think we had a modern, systematic method of hunting until as recently as 60,000 years ago," he says.

http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/4582.aspx

pretty interesting article. and again, i'm not saying that THIS is definitely the true stuff and so on. i'm just saying that this plain black-white view of "historic evidence" and science in general is sometimes not so evident as it seems.

think for yourself. question authority.



--------------------


All things are true. God's an Astronaut. Oz is Over the Rainbow, and Midian is where the monsters live.


Edited by godisanastronaut (02/20/11 02:55 PM)


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Invisibleowls
just let go!


Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 6,485
Loc: dancing Flag
Re: Vegetarianism [Re: godisanastronaut]
    #13997948 - 02/20/11 08:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i heard that some people do need meat at least while they are still growing.. could be completly incorrect though

that would really just have to do with protein in general though, eh?


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Vegetarianism [Re: owls]
    #13999145 - 02/21/11 12:41 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

As far as I know there are far richer sources of absorbable protein than meat (e.g. spirulina)


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