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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #13996937 - 02/20/11 05:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Not at all.  Do you deny that Monsanto products increase crop yield?


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago. Flag
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13997083 - 02/20/11 06:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

An April 2006 report from the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) states that “currently available GM crops do not increase the yield potential of a hybrid variety. […] In fact, yield may even decrease if the varieties used to carry the herbicide tolerant or insect-resistant genes are not the highest yielding cultivars”.

Fernandez-Cornejo, J. & Caswell. April 2006. Genetically Engineered Crops in the UnitedStates. USDA/ERS Economic Information Bulletin n. 11.

Link:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib11/eib11.pdf



Source: Benbrook, Charles Evidence of the Magnitude and Consequences of the Roundup Ready Soybean Yield Drag from University-Based Varietal Trials in 1998 Mindfully Green, 13 July 1999. Retrieved 27 October 2010.

http://www.biotech-info.net/RR_yield_drag_98.pdf

This 1999 study by Charles Benbrook, Chief Scientist of the Organic Center, found that genetically engineered Roundup Ready soybeans did not increase yields.The report reviewed over 8,200 university trials in 1998 and found that Roundup Ready soybeans yielded 7-10% less than similar natural varieties. In addition, the same study found that farmers used 5-10 times more herbicide (Roundup) on Roundup Ready soybeans than on conventional ones. The only reason farmers seem to prefer Roundup Ready soybeans is because they simplify management of large chemically-intensive farms, by allowing them, for example, to spray larger doses of herbicides from planes on crops, engineered to be resistant to the particular herbicide. Applications of biotechnology continue the legacy of industrial agricultural with monocultures and high energy and chemical inputs.


Qaim, Matim; Zilberman, D (2003). "Yield Effects of Genetically Modified Crops in Developing Countries". Science 299 (5608): 900–902. doi:10.1126/science.1080609. PMID 12574633.

This study found that in DEVELOPiNG Countries, cotton yields increased over 50%.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/299/5608/900.abstract

There's plenty more info and now that were asking questions; do you know of any of the problems associated with GMO's?


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago. Flag
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #13997110 - 02/20/11 06:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i don't whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.

Maybe i will do both?

:facepalm:


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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #13997186 - 02/20/11 06:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You sure are dancing all around the yield question, aren't you?  Because as much as you hate it they most certainly do increase crop yield.

So we'll move on.

Have you or have you not heard of Paul Ehrlich?

How do you feel about the delta smelt?


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago. Flag
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13997815 - 02/20/11 08:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You sure are dancing all around the yield question, aren't you?  Because as much as you hate it they most certainly do increase crop yield.

So we'll move on.

Have you or have you not heard of Paul Ehrlich?

How do you feel about the delta smelt?




:lol:

i feel like its pointless to argue with you, when you think presenting evidence is 'dancing'.

:facepalm:


--------------------
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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13999674 - 02/21/11 06:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
they most certainly do increase crop yield.




that's the whole point of adding unnatural crap into your crops.  bigger yields.  shittier food.  eat up zappa.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: Grav]
    #13999819 - 02/21/11 07:38 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well at least you know that they increase yields, unlike the real True Believer above.  And I can afford the more expensive food process, unlike many many billions of others.  So keep starving people in the name of food purity.

Do you have any idea how many poor brown people died because of Rachel Carson?


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OfflineScavengerType
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
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Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: Grav]
    #14001399 - 02/21/11 01:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Alphafalfa, I would like to read your paper.

It's possible that you are correct and in actuality water shortages would lead to an increase in monsanto sales, particularly to regions where water conservation was not necessary.

Here is some images of the size of the aquifer and where it's being withdrawn.

Now it's not going to run out all at the same time for everyone, in fact it is unlikely that it will be allowed to just be pumped dry before anyone does anything. There won't be some apocalyptic event where there's no more water and the US doesn't export enough grains and world prices shoots up. Not only do the people running the pumps know how low the water is getting but they will plan ahead, they will start metering it and there will be time to plan. People will have time to look at and implement conservation strategies.

It is not as if other countries are not finding that Monsanto seeds don't yield higher. There are many farmers in India and other places complaining of Monsanto products that after a few years using the seeds where they get good yields and then they see significantly declining returns.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago. Flag
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14007886 - 02/22/11 02:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Alphafalfa, I would like to read your paper.

It's possible that you are correct and in actuality water shortages would lead to an increase in monsanto sales, particularly to regions where water conservation was not necessary.

Here is some images of the size of the aquifer and where it's being withdrawn.

Now it's not going to run out all at the same time for everyone, in fact it is unlikely that it will be allowed to just be pumped dry before anyone does anything. There won't be some apocalyptic event where there's no more water and the US doesn't export enough grains and world prices shoots up. Not only do the people running the pumps know how low the water is getting but they will plan ahead, they will start metering it and there will be time to plan. People will have time to look at and implement conservation strategies.

It is not as if other countries are not finding that Monsanto seeds don't yield higher. There are many farmers in India and other places complaining of Monsanto products that after a few years using the seeds where they get good yields and then they see significantly declining returns.





And the USDA completley agree's.

Obviosly we should rethink what the USDA researches and concludes about GMO's because Zappa said so.

An April 2006 report from the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) states that “currently available GM crops do not increase the yield potential of a hybrid variety. […] In fact, yield may even decrease if the varieties used to carry the herbicide tolerant or insect-resistant genes are not the highest yielding cultivars”.

Fernandez-Cornejo, J. & Caswell. April 2006. Genetically Engineered Crops in the UnitedStates. USDA/ERS Economic Information Bulletin n. 11.

Link:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib11/eib11.pdf


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago. Flag
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: Grav]
    #14007902 - 02/22/11 02:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
they most certainly do increase crop yield.




that's the whole point of adding unnatural crap into your crops.  bigger yields.  shittier food.  eat up zappa.





Maybe if you actually reseached into these issues and less into 9/11, thereby distracting you to focus on useless problems, you would know that the whole point of GMO's is the control of the food system.


--------------------
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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago. Flag
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14007915 - 02/22/11 02:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Alphafalfa, I would like to read your paper.

It's possible that you are correct and in actuality water shortages would lead to an increase in monsanto sales, particularly to regions where water conservation was not necessary.

Here is some images of the size of the aquifer and where it's being withdrawn.

Now it's not going to run out all at the same time for everyone, in fact it is unlikely that it will be allowed to just be pumped dry before anyone does anything. There won't be some apocalyptic event where there's no more water and the US doesn't export enough grains and world prices shoots up. Not only do the people running the pumps know how low the water is getting but they will plan ahead, they will start metering it and there will be time to plan. People will have time to look at and implement conservation strategies.

It is not as if other countries are not finding that Monsanto seeds don't yield higher. There are many farmers in India and other places complaining of Monsanto products that after a few years using the seeds where they get good yields and then they see significantly declining returns.




Give me a PM with your email, I will send it through there.


But give me some time, its been a while since I wrote it and I work alot now.


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14008060 - 02/22/11 03:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
And the USDA completley agree's.

Obviosly we should rethink what the USDA researches and concludes about GMO's because Zappa said so.

An April 2006 report from the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) states that “currently available GM crops do not increase the yield potential of a hybrid variety. […] In fact, yield may even decrease if the varieties used to carry the herbicide tolerant or insect-resistant genes are not the highest yielding cultivars”.

Fernandez-Cornejo, J. & Caswell. April 2006. Genetically Engineered Crops in the UnitedStates. USDA/ERS Economic Information Bulletin n. 11.

Link:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib11/eib11.pdf




From your link, cherry picking liar:
Quote:


Currently available GE crops do not increase the yield potential of a hybrid
variety. In fact, yield may even decrease if the varieties used to carry the
herbicide-tolerant or insect-resistant genes are not the highest yielding cultivars.
4 However, by protecting the plant from certain pests, GE crops can
prevent yield losses compared with non-GE hybrids, particularly when pest
infestation is high.





And

Quote:

Many field tests and farm surveys have examined the yield and cost effects
of using GE crops (table 3). The majority of the results show GE crops
produce higher yields than conventional crops.





Also this for the enviroweenies out there:

Quote:

Genetically engineered crops also seem to have environmental benefits.  Overall pesticide use is lower for adopters of GE crops, and the adoption of herbicide-tolerant soybeans may indirectly benefit the environment by encouraging the adoption of soil conservation practices.




Your own fucking link, liar boy.

Did you think I wouldn't check your flagrantly absurd claim?


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


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Posts: 3,857
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Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14008852 - 02/22/11 05:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

This 1999 study by Charles Benbrook, Chief Scientist of the Organic Center, found that genetically engineered Roundup Ready soybeans did not increase yields.The report reviewed over 8,200 university trials in 1998 and found that Roundup Ready soybeans yielded 7-10% less than similar natural varieties. In addition, the same study found that farmers used 5-10 times more herbicide (Roundup) on Roundup Ready soybeans than on conventional ones. The only reason farmers seem to prefer Roundup Ready soybeans is because they simplify management of large chemically-intensive farms, by allowing them, for example, to spray larger doses of herbicides from planes on crops, engineered to be resistant to the particular herbicide. Applications of biotechnology continue the legacy of industrial agricultural with monocultures and high energy and chemical inputs.


http://www.biotech-info.net/RR_yield_drag_98.pdf


The studies that this guy looks at are independent of Monsanto and Dupont's funding!!!!

Who would have thought???? Wanna know why i offered you a USDA article? Becuase you don't trust anything from independent sources, you'd rather trust government!!!



Cherry picking my ARSE.
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
And the USDA completley agree's.

Obviosly we should rethink what the USDA researches and concludes about GMO's because Zappa said so.

An April 2006 report from the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) states that “currently available GM crops do not increase the yield potential of a hybrid variety. […] In fact, yield may even decrease if the varieties used to carry the herbicide tolerant or insect-resistant genes are not the highest yielding cultivars”.

Fernandez-Cornejo, J. & Caswell. April 2006. Genetically Engineered Crops in the UnitedStates. USDA/ERS Economic Information Bulletin n. 11.

Link:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib11/eib11.pdf




From your link, cherry picking liar:
Quote:


Currently available GE crops do not increase the yield potential of a hybrid
variety. In fact, yield may even decrease if the varieties used to carry the
herbicide-tolerant or insect-resistant genes are not the highest yielding cultivars.

4 However, by protecting the plant from certain pests, GE crops can
prevent yield losses compared with non-GE hybrids, particularly when pest
infestation is high.





So what????

You can't disprove the fact that hybrid varieties of seed are still winning against GMO yields!!!




And

Quote:

Many field tests and farm surveys have examined the yield and cost effects
of using GE crops (table 3). The majority of the results show GE crops
produce higher yields than conventional crops.





Conventional crops!!!

Not hybrid crops!!!!! Moron!

Also this for the enviroweenies out there:

Quote:

Genetically engineered crops also seem to have environmental benefits.  Overall pesticide use is lower for adopters of GE crops, and the adoption of herbicide-tolerant soybeans may indirectly benefit the environment by encouraging the adoption of soil conservation practices.







Your own fucking link, liar boy.

Did you think I wouldn't check your flagrantly absurd claim?


Lack of literacy!!


HAHAHA - don't even get me into the environmental problems with GE crops.

Many of these problems have not even been tested for.

You probally have no fucking clue what i am even talking about, do you?




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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14008959 - 02/22/11 06:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:


http://www.biotech-info.net/RR_yield_drag_98.pdf


The studies that this guy looks at are independent of Monsanto and Dupont's funding!!!!

Who would have thought???? Wanna know why i offered you a USDA article? Becuase you don't trust anything from independent sources, you'd rather trust government!!!




Linky no workee.  Wonder whyeee.

You most certainly did cherry pick, pumpkin, and thereby exposed yourself as a liar.

Here is the killer for your nonsense.  If they didn't increase yields why the fuck would anybody pay for their seeds?  It takes a particularly deranged mindset to think anything else is in play.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Registered: 01/24/08
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Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14009515 - 02/22/11 07:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a bit of an Ag buff myself so I looked into the soil conservation claim, because I wanted to understand why.
Quote:

According to USDA survey data, about 60 percent of the area planted with
HT soybeans was under conservation tillage in 1997, compared with only
about 40 percent of the acres planted with conventional soybeans (fig. 9).
Differences in the use of no-till between adopters and nonadopters of HT
soybeans are even more pronounced: 40 percent of acres planted with HT
soybeans were under no-till, twice the corresponding share of acreage
planted with conventional soybeans. As a result, adoption of HT crops may
indirectly benefit the environment by encouraging farmers to use soil
conservation practices.



This is just a statistical aberration. The paper presents no causal link between GMO products and the "soil conservation", which actually means the use of no-till cropping methods. No-till cropping operations receive a subsidy (which I agree is good ag policy) in the US and are likely taught to farmers in Ag schools, the same schools in the US that blatantly promote the use of GMO/Monsanto products. While it is more common for unschooled farmers to use conventional seeds. It's far more likely that the same people who are getting taught to use these products know about the subsidy and benefits of no-till rather than generational farmers. The difference is only of 60%:40% and isn't significant enough to suggest that the GMO crops themselves have anything to do with the increased use of no-till among GMO farmers.

IME though Alphafalfa, if your going to waste your time correcting every idiotic claim zappaisgod makes... your gonna waste a lot of time. Lets just say, that for him knowing anything about a topic is not a prerequisite for him forming an opinion on it (likely because someone else has already formed his opinion on it in the first place). Don't feed the trolls right? Though, through his ridiculous questions, claims and opinions, he does make a good sounding board for someone intelligent to actually show their knowledge.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineTri High
Whigro
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Registered: 05/02/08
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Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14010741 - 02/22/11 11:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I wonder how much acreage in America is used up by grass lawns which could be watered just as much and yield a whooole lot of good food.  Even without the GM varieties.  We could also grow hemp and use it for everything from paper to plastics (hydrocarbons). 

America is stuck in this "others provide necessities, I provide commodities" situation.  Where we all that own homes could be granted some time to tend our food livelihood on our own property. 

I think that's kind of messed.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Registered: 01/24/08
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Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: Tri High]
    #14010888 - 02/22/11 11:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The real question is how much of falling water tables is used to water said grass. Think about it, places like California, Arizona or Texas where people use falling water tables to water their fucking lawns.

I figure this is a monetary incentive problem. Many cities/municipalities give free residential water, while stickers that say "I'M A TOTAL FUCKING JACKASS" could cost as high as $5.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
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Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14011188 - 02/23/11 12:24 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

In May 2000, results of a two-year study by Nebraska University's Institute of Agriculture and Natural Resources showed RR soya yielded 6% less than their closest non-GM relatives and 11% less than high-yielding non-GM varieties [2]. The yield penalty was attributed to the gene insertion process.

Similar yield drags have been reported since 1997.

    * In 1997, the University of Purdue found that transgenic soya varieties yielded on average 12-20% less than unmodified varieties grown at the same locations [3].
    * Research published in 1998 by the University of Arkansas and Cyanamid revealed reduced profit levels and lower yields for GM soya and cotton compared with unmodified varieties [3].
    * The University of Wisconsin found GM soya yields from the 1998 harvest lower than non-modified varieties in over 80% of cases in trials across nine US states [4].
    * In Iowa, a 1999 survey of reported an average RR-soybean yield reduction of 4% in over 365 fields [5].
    * A review of 40 trials of soya varieties in the north central region of the US in 1999 found a mean 4% yield drag in RR soya [6].
    * In the UK, reports of crop trials from the National Institute of Agricultural Botany show yields from GM winter oilseed rape and sugar beet 5-8% less than high-yielding conventional varieties [7].

In summary, yield losses, not yield gains, are more commonly associated with transgenic crops compared to best available conventionally-bred cultivars and hybrids [8].

[2] http://www.biotech-info.net/Roundup_soybeans_yield_less.html

[3] http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/gmlemmings.htm

[4] http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/wisconsinRRsoyatrials98.htm

[5] http://www.leopold.iastate.edu/news/9-22-99gmorel.html

[6] [6]Oplinger, E.S., M.J. Martinka, and K.A. Schmitz (1999) Performance of transgenetic soybeans - Northern US, presented to the ASTA Meetings, Chicago, cited in [8].

[7]Reported in Farmers Weekly (UK), 4th December 1998.

[8] http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/faculty/eclark/10reasons.htm

Anything else Zappa?

The link doesn't work because the publication is not available through the internet. It is a scholarly article.


--------------------
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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


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Posts: 3,857
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Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14011216 - 02/23/11 12:28 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
The real question is how much of falling water tables is used to water said grass. Think about it, places like California, Arizona or Texas where people use falling water tables to water their fucking lawns.

I figure this is a monetary incentive problem. Many cities/municipalities give free residential water, while stickers that say "I'M A TOTAL FUCKING JACKASS" could cost as high as $5.




Zappa does make heavy claims with little research to back it.

He seems to resemble a mainstream opinion of what people believe.

Yeah and FOX news just sits there and comments on the latest death in the middle east!

But then again, I don't blame them. There is money to be made in making things scarce.

I realize that USA won't be screwed to the point of starvation, but may suffer a severe decrease in quality of life.


--------------------
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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: FOX news deceptively edits video from 2011 CPAC [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14011636 - 02/23/11 01:41 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Oh come on, it's not always the latest death in the middle east, they are quite selective about the deaths in the middle east that they do or do not report on.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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