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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Some are happy
    #1394956 - 03/20/03 11:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Iraqi-Americans Rejoice

While many media are giving publicity to appeasement protests by non-Iraqi Muslims in America, the Orange County Register today noted that Iraqi-Americans are celebrating and praising President Bush.

"This is the day we've been waiting for" was the theme of a gathering of Iraqi-Americans last night in Tustin, Calif.

"My mind is with the people over there, what they're thinking right now," said Mohammad Alnajafi. "I know they're scared, but it's like they're in a tunnel running toward the light. These moments are like centuries for them. No one knows what Saddam might do, but he cannot take the country hostage forever."

"I would like to go kiss Bush on his head," said Faiza Nouri, 62. Her son has been missing in Iraq for more than 20 years.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1394960 - 03/20/03 11:02 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1395097 - 03/20/03 11:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

we are not going into this war to free people, then why are we using it as propaganda? millions of people are living under tyranny all over the world, are we going to free the world? this kind of stuff disgusts me, its specifically targetted to produce warm feelings and have people think "wow, we really are doing something right". its sad how easily people can be manipulated and brainwashed.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some are happy [Re: ]
    #1395122 - 03/20/03 12:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

its sad how easily people can be manipulated and brainwashed.

It's luvdemshrooms. Being easily manipulated and brainwashed is his forte.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1395129 - 03/20/03 12:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What's that Kettle? Who's black you say?


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Skikid16]
    #1395142 - 03/20/03 12:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'm worried. The George Bush fanatic selling snowboards is upset at me again :smirk:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineRonoS
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Male User Gallery

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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1395147 - 03/20/03 12:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Let's try to keep this on topic kids...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1395349 - 03/20/03 01:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

its sad how easily people can be manipulated and brainwashed.

It's luvdemshrooms. Being easily manipulated and brainwashed is his forte.



Gosh Alpo, thanks for showing me the true path. Keep walking down it until you fall off the cliff at the end.

Bugs you that there are those who'll be glad to see the troops come rolling in, doesn't it? Just eating away at you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1395407 - 03/20/03 02:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

beats being PRO-SADDAM i suppose..


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1395516 - 03/20/03 03:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I want a link and pics!    :smirk: 


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: ]
    #1395603 - 03/20/03 03:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

LoOnEr writes:

this kind of stuff disgusts me, its specifically targetted to produce warm feelings and have people think "wow, we really are doing something right".

So you are in favor of censoring the news media.

pinky


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1395730 - 03/20/03 04:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Average Iraqi resents the U.S. more than Saddam

excerpt

"Iraqis moving in and out of their country as war looms warn that invading U.S. troops likely would face a population determined to fight to the death.

President Bush has appealed to Iraqis, promising liberation.

But many now see America which insisted on economic sanctions that hurt millions of Iraqis and is poised to defy world opinion by waging war as more of a menace now than Saddam Hussein."


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An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1395764 - 03/20/03 05:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i think he's just anti-propaganda as the US news media is already heavily censored.


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An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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Offlinesoylent_green
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Re: Some are happy [Re: ]
    #1395769 - 03/20/03 05:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

we are not going into this war to free people, then why are we using it as propaganda? millions of people are living under tyranny all over the world, are we going to free the world? this kind of stuff disgusts me, its specifically targetted to produce warm feelings and have people think "wow, we really are doing something right". its sad how easily people can be manipulated and brainwashed.




i agree


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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: rhizo]
    #1395956 - 03/20/03 06:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Rhizo writes:

i think he's just anti-propaganda...

ALL propaganda?

... as the US news media is already heavily censored.

Nonsense. Different media outlets (depending on their editorial policies and marketing plans) emphasize some coverage at the expense of others. It has always been thus and always will be. That's why any reasonably sizeable city has no difficulty supporting several newspapers, for example.

Censorship doesn't occur when an editor chooses not to focus on or even mention a given story, it occurs when that editor is forbidden by the government to mention a given story.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1395962 - 03/20/03 06:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

of course i'm not against censoring media. i can just imagine the effects that silly little article will have on the hearts of many clueless people.


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1395998 - 03/20/03 06:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Censorship doesn't occur when an editor chooses not to focus on or even mention a given story, it occurs when that editor is forbidden by the government to mention a given story.




To me it doesn't matter who does the censoring, it's still censorship imo as the media and the goverment are in cahoots.

"Daniel Hallin, a communications professor at the University of California at San Diego, also said the media will attempt to avoid public backlash. "The media will use self-censorship, censoring graphic information and controversial issues and anything reflecting negatively on U.S. troops.""

excerpt from Media, not military, will censor information


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An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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Anonymous

Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1396035 - 03/20/03 06:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's luvdemshrooms. Being easily manipulated and brainwashed is his forte

whheeeewww... hahaha... alex... thanks man... it took me about 20 minutes to get done laughing after that one. haha.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: rhizo]
    #1396049 - 03/20/03 07:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

rhizo writes:

To me it doesn't matter who does the censoring, it's still censorship imo...

If you want to be taken seriously in this forum, I suggest you use words the way they are meant to be used, rather than assign personalized meanings to them.

As for "self-censorship", that is a contradiction in terms.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: ]
    #1396068 - 03/20/03 07:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

LoOnEr writes:

i can just imagine the effects that silly little article will have on the hearts of many clueless people.

It will probably have less effect on the hearts of many clueless people than the silly articles opposing the war.

Few people on either side take the time to inform themselves and think it through all the way. Most support or oppose based on feelings rather than logic. This is nothing new.

pinky


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Offlinezeronio
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Registered: 10/16/01
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396261 - 03/20/03 08:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Censorship doesn't occur when an editor chooses not to focus on or even mention a given story, it occurs when that editor is forbidden by the government to mention a given story.




You're trying to close both eyes on what's going on. Of course the government does not directly forbid publishing of certain stories. The method of censorship used in USA is much more sophisticated and effective. The media that would not act in a patriotic way would quickly loose its advertisers.
I had the opportunity to follow media in a communist country that had "verbal delict" laws and I can assure you that journalists were always provocating authority anyway. The media were never so biased like the shit I see now. BTW I had the opportunity to watch CNN & Iraq TV at the beginning of this war but closing Iraq TV channels on the satellites was one of the priorities of the war pigs.  :smirk: 


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: zeronio]
    #1396304 - 03/20/03 08:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Zeronio writes:

The method of censorship used in USA is much more sophisticated and effective. The media that would not act in a patriotic way would quickly loose its advertisers.

I understand what you are trying to say, but that is not "censorship", it is marketing.

Each publisher targets a specific market segment. Any businessman with half a brain knows that you can't be "all things to all people". Depending which market segment your paper best addresses, a given advertiser may or may not choose to run an ad in your paper.

pinky


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396321 - 03/20/03 08:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's not about the target audience. The advertisers don't withdraw their ads because the media wouldn't get enough audience but because it's acting in a non-patriotic way. So that's a real censorship.
A good example is what happened to French. Are French wines not good enough or are they being poured down the drains because French government opposed the USA? That's a very good way for silencing the opposition. The advertisers unfortunately don't act according to the market and profit but like those who destroy good french wines for nothing.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Some are happy [Re: zeronio]
    #1396344 - 03/20/03 09:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What is wrong with people expressing their desires with economic choices? Would you be equally against commercial decisions designed to stop the slaughter of whales? Would you be equally against companies who withdrew their ads so their expenditures would not benefit from the destruction of the Amazonian rainforest? Economic choices can be a form of free speech, of free expression. It's called LIBERTY.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: zeronio]
    #1396373 - 03/20/03 09:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

zeronio writes:

It's not about the target audience. The advertisers don't withdraw their ads because the media wouldn't get enough audience but because it's acting in a non-patriotic way. So that's a real censorship.

You still don't get it. An advertiser can withdraw his ads at any time for any reason. Some advertisers have withdrawn ads from magazines that showed what they considered to be excessive nudity, and they didn't want their product associated with such an image. Others withdraw not because the paper or magazine has done anything wrong at all, but because they themselves are attempting to change their target market. Still others (and these are very rare) actually have principles that matter more to them than profitability, and will withdraw their ads from any publication that offends their standards (whether those standards relate to religion, obscenity, patriotism or whatever) even if it means they will suffer financially from the lost advertising exposure.

None of the above reasons has anything to do with censorship.

Are French wines not good enough or are they being poured down the drains because French government opposed the USA?

Wait a minute. Just as an advertiser chooses which magazine in which to advertise, so also do the magazines choose which ads they will accept. If a magazine publisher decides to drop advertising from French winemakers, how is that censorship?

pinky


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396429 - 03/20/03 09:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Would you be equally against commercial decisions designed to stop the slaughter of whales? Would you be equally against companies who withdrew their ads so their expenditures would not benefit from the destruction of the Amazonian rainforest?





OK you got me on that. (Here's an interesting site that started a campaign that I don't agree with: Boycott brand America)

So it is normal that the companies withdraw their ads from the media that criticizes or goes agains their moral standards. But the effect they achieve is quite similar to the censorship in totalitarian regimes. I guess it is impossible to criticize Saddam in Iraq because it is against official moral standards. If you're a journalist and you disagree with the prevailing thinking then you're in trouble in any case.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1396524 - 03/20/03 11:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

On the peace march in London I saw plenty of Iraqis protesting the war. Of course im lying though arent I?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396530 - 03/20/03 11:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

None of the above reasons has anything to do with censorship.

Pink, this sounds like another one of your 2 minute google specials.

How does the media make money? By selling advertising space to advertisers. Their aim is to deliver a market for advertisers. The largest and most profitable advertising revenues are available to those media sources that appeal to the well-off. You are not going to get advertisers queing up to advertise in newspapers publishing news stories that appeal to starving africans and the poor. Why? Because you sell more selling to people who have money. Get it?

You often don't need "censorship". By the time the editors reach positions of power they have learned the rules and follow them to the letter. The bottom line is profits.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396533 - 03/20/03 11:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

To balance the piece they could interview Iraqis who are against the war. Otherwise it is propaganda not reporting as Im sure you would agree.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1396539 - 03/20/03 11:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The largest and most profitable advertising revenues are available to those media sources that appeal to the well-off.


I'm really confused. You are saying that the media makes the most money off the advertisments that target rich people?

It doesn't work that way, the way it works is the media (networks) set commercial slot prices based on the show that is being broadcast. The higher the ratings, the higher the slot prices, hence the exorbanent amount for a commercial during the Super Bowl.

The media couldn't give two fucks who was advertising during their shows, as long as they got the money.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1396547 - 03/20/03 11:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

On the peace march in London I saw plenty of Iraqis protesting the war. Of course im lying though arent I?



Why would that make you a liar? I have little doubt there are many, there are also many who will welcome the sight of troops.

As in most things, there are two sides. The article doesn't claim every Iraqi will be glad.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1396615 - 03/21/03 01:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

As in most things, there are two sides. The article doesn't claim every Iraqi will be glad.




There are many who will think that it does mean every Iraqi is glad.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1396687 - 03/21/03 02:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Iraqi's want saddam out....


Thousands of Iraqis Want to Fight Saddam
NewsMax.com Wires
Wednesday, Dec. 11, 2002
WASHINGTON – Thousands of expatriate Iraqis all over the world have expressed interest in a U.S. program to train them for fighting Saddam Hussein, the State Department said Tuesday.
President Bush on Monday authorized using $92 million for providing military training and facilities to Iraqi opposition groups.

The money is given under a law passed by Congress in 1998. Under this law, Congress had authorized $97 million. The U.S. administration had already allocated $5 million for funding Iraqi opposition groups, of which about a million had already been spent.

In the past two years, the Department of Defense, which oversees this program, trained 140 Iraqi opposition members under the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998.

But this year the Bush administration decided to expand the program and asked Iraqi opposition groups to send a list of their members available for training.

'Gratified With the Response'

"We're quite gratified with the response we had under that," said State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker. "Thousands of expatriate Iraqis all over the world have expressed an interest in participating."

Reeker rejected reports that Washington has asked the opposition Iraqi National Congress to be the sole intermediary for assistance to other groups.

"Under the plan as I understand ... each group is going to coordinate with the Department of Defense through a committee made up of representatives of a number of groups," said Reeker.

Besides INC, he said, Kurdish Democratic Party, Movement for Constitutional Monarchy, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq are designated under the Iraq Liberation Act.

Most of these groups have been working with the United States for some time, but the Iran-based SCIRI is a new addition to the list.

United Press International reported Monday that the Bush administration has approved military funding for six Iraqi opposition groups, including an Iran-based organization that maintains close ties to that country's hard-line Islamic clerical leadership.

The group, known as Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or SCIRI, is an umbrella for Shia Islamist groups including some that have in the past coordinated activities with Iran's intelligence services. The group maintains an office in Tehran that is paid for by the Iranian government.

Under an order signed by Bush on Saturday, SCIRI and five other Iraqi opposition groups would be eligible for $92 million worth of military training and defense articles from the Pentagon, authorized by the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act.

"The Iranians have allowed SCIRI to take some positions different than the government. That said the group is never going to go against Iranian policy, and is dependent on Iranian financial and logistical support," Patrick Clawson, the deputy director of Washington Institute for Near East Policy, told UPI.

Copyright 2002 by United Press International.

All rights reserved.

Thousands of Iraqis Want to Fight Saddam


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1396694 - 03/21/03 02:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Oh my it must be true!


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1396716 - 03/21/03 02:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

great rebutle, keep up the good work little buddy.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1397104 - 03/21/03 05:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

Oh my it must be true!

See, here we have a prime example of the close-mindedness so often exhibited by the ideologues (on BOTH sides). No attempt to refute, no attempt to impeach the source -- merely a kneejerk reaction that since it opposes their own beliefs, it must be a lie.

Why is it so impossible to believe that many expatriate Iraqis would like to change the current Iraqi regime, and even willing to fight to do so? This is undeniably the case with expatriates of other totalitarian regimes (Cubans and Haitians being the two I am most familiar with, but there are certainly more), some of whom have behaved more mildly than Hussein has.

Does this mean that ALL expatriate Iraqis have this same fervor? Of course not. But to say that NONE have is to wilfully evade reality.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1397119 - 03/21/03 05:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


See, here we have a prime example of the close-mindedness so often exhibited by the ideologues (on BOTH sides). No attempt to refute, no attempt to impeach the source -- merely a kneejerk reaction that since it opposes their own beliefs, it must be a lie.




Get off your high horse. And where did I say it was a lie? Sloppy thinking Sharkboy.


--------------------
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1397139 - 03/21/03 05:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

You often don't need "censorship". By the time the editors reach positions of power they have learned the rules and follow them to the letter. The bottom line is profits.

Precisely my point. There is no censorship because usually none is needed. The selection of stories is not determined or prohibited by the government, but by the market.

Rhizo's original assertion was "...the US news media is already heavily censored."

In actual fact, it is not.

pinky


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Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1397173 - 03/21/03 05:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

And where did I say it was a lie?

Ah, I misunderstood. My apologies. Normally an arch comment such as "Oh my it must be true!" would be construed as a sarcastic response, particularly when the participants in a debate are all well aware of each others' prior stance on the issue.

If your comment was neither sarcastic nor facetious, then it must be taken at its face value, and you believe the report posted was accurate. Do you believe it is accurate? If you do, then let me be the first to congratulate you on your conversion.

pinky



--------------------


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1397452 - 03/21/03 07:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LoOnEr writes:

this kind of stuff disgusts me, its specifically targetted to produce warm feelings and have people think "wow, we really are doing something right".

So you are in favor of censoring the news media.

pinky




Pinky, does nothing you see coming out of the media disgust you (or anger, disturb, etc)? Considering the wide variety of material, I'd say there's a chance. Does that mean you favor censoring it?

Tobacco disgusts me, but I'm not in favor of making it illegal.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1397728 - 03/21/03 08:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Some more happy campers.

---------

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81784,00.html


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1397809 - 03/21/03 09:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You do realize that this won't sit well with the 'America The Great Satan' crowd which posts here?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1397815 - 03/21/03 09:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know why many people would find this shocking. It isn't like Saddam ever earned a merit badge for helping old ladies across the street.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Evolving]
    #1397817 - 03/21/03 09:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You do realize that this won't sit well with the 'America The Great Satan' crowd which posts here?

Like who? I've just seen people who don't like George Bush.

Try not to confuse America with George Bush. They really arn't the same thing.


--------------------
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Evolving]
    #1397860 - 03/21/03 09:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I do realize and I don't much care what those pathetic baboons think.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1397863 - 03/21/03 09:55 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's not right to insult baboons like that.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Evolving]
    #1397869 - 03/21/03 09:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You're right of course.
:blush:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1397984 - 03/21/03 10:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If your comment was neither sarcastic nor facetious, then it must be taken at its face value, and you believe the report posted was accurate. Do you believe it is accurate? If you do, then let me be the first to congratulate you on your conversion. 




Have you ever heard of the word maybe? Your so Aristotelean! Its really quite charming. :grin: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1398053 - 03/21/03 11:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

about the word censorship...

you seem to think that it is only censorship if it meets your own "personalized" definition of the word(ie, the government must perform the censoring). however, i agree with the way the word is used in this article. if you disagree with the author's use of the word you can send her an email if you'd like.

--------begin article--------------------------------

Media, not military, will censor information

By Stephanie jordan
Staff Writer

March 19, 2003

While the U.S. military will not directly censor the media in the coming weeks, experts say news organizations might fall prey to self-censoring the material they release to the public.

Wartime could prove trying for journalists as they debate what news is safe to release without endangering the nation's security.

Carol Winkler, chairwoman of Georgia State University's Communications Department, said there won't be any formal restrictions on reports by the press.

She said that in previous times of war, the government has given the media guidelines regarding what they would like the press to omit. But she added that these are only suggestions and that the press can choose whether or not to abide.

But Winkler said she still thinks the press will be sympathetic to U.S. military efforts.

"Media coverage will show the U.S. at an advantage as best they can," she said. "If they have pictures of the Iraqi military and people supporting the U.S. or evidence of Iraqi biological and chemical weapons, they will show them."

UNC journalism Professor Chuck Stone, who specializes in media censorship, said the press will not publish certain things, such as timetables regarding U.S. troop deployment, that might cause problems for U.S. forces overseas.

The media also won't show Iraqi people rising against U.S. efforts, Winkler said, and they won't show innocent civilians being killed, particularly women and children. "The media will be pretty respectful of what the administration wants, and they definitely will not reveal where the troops are, which was a major problem in the Gulf War."

But experts said that no matter what information and photographs are released or restricted, they will spark public criticism.

"The media will have to strike a balance and give just enough information," Stone said. "They'll gather as much as they can but sift out what will cause problems for field troops on the firing line."

He also said that although U.S. soldiers might be shown dead on film or in pictures, they will not be shown dead in a graphic manner, such as severely burned.

Daniel Hallin, a communications professor at the University of California at San Diego, also said the media will attempt to avoid public backlash. "The media will use self-censorship, censoring graphic information and controversial issues and anything reflecting negatively on U.S. troops."

Winkler said photographs will be reviewed through a lengthy process before publication. "They most likely won't be released the day of the story but rather will be held until they will not hurt the administration as much."

But despite probable self-censorship, some information that is sure to be released might cause the public to think twice about war, Stone said. "The majority of the public is supporting the president right now. And graphic photos or information will cause the public to say 'That's the price you pay.'"

Stone said no matter what the public thinks of the war and possible self-censorship, people will be compelled to stay informed.

"We're in crisis mode right now, and the more information you get, the more you can cope. It's better to know than not know."

Contact the State & National Editor at stntdesk@unc.edu

---------------end here---------------------------------------


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1398062 - 03/21/03 11:18 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Gazz said: Oh my it must be true!

Gazz also said: Have you ever heard of the word maybe?

where did you use the word maybe?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (03/21/03 01:59 PM)


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Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1398412 - 03/21/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

Have you ever heard of the word maybe?

And how, pray tell, are we to derive "maybe" from "Oh my it must be true!"

pinky


--------------------


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Re: Some are happy [Re: rhizo]
    #1398467 - 03/21/03 02:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

rhizo writes:

you seem to think that it is only censorship if it meets your own "personalized" definition of the word(ie, the government must perform the censoring).

So sorry, it is not personalized at all.

Oxford Dictionary of Current English:

censor -- official with power to suppress whole or parts of books, plays, films, letters, news, etc. on grounds of obscenity, threat to security, etc.

Merriam Webster:

censorship -- the actions or practices of censors; especially : censorial control exercised repressively

Your original claim was that "the US news media is already heavily censored. " This is untrue. The article you provide illustrates this quite clearly by its very title. The decision of what to publish and what not to publish is not being dictated to the press by the government or the military, it is left in the hands of the individual reporters and editors.

In other words, the media is not being censored.

pinky


--------------------


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1398541 - 03/21/03 02:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the media knows what the government won't allow so the publisher censors his own publication(referred to as self-censorship in the article), knowing that the government would do it anyway. maybe you think because a government official did not personally perform the censoring that it is somehow not censorship. anyway, i think you're splitting hairs here.


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1399211 - 03/21/03 08:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Your original claim was that "the US news media is already heavily censored. "

As we've shown many times before pink, dictionary definitions arn't adequate. If editors self-censor themselves in exactly the way Bush would censor them anyway is this "censorship"? My opinion is that it is.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1400036 - 03/22/03 09:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"You just arrived," he said. "You're late. What took you so long? God help you become victorious. I want to say hello to Bush, to shake his hand. We came out of the grave."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,919627,00.html


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1400045 - 03/22/03 09:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

In other words, the media is not being censored.



They're not being censored. They just decided not to inform the public because that's not in the national interest.


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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1400059 - 03/22/03 09:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1423714 - 04/02/03 06:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1423791 - 04/02/03 06:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So what's your point from all this?


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Re: Some are happy [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1423849 - 04/02/03 07:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So what's your point from all this?



I would have thought the subject made that fairly clear.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1423872 - 04/02/03 07:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So are you yourself terribly concerned about the plight of the Iraqi people, or are you just posting this to prove the point that some people in Iraq don't like Saddam?


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1423888 - 04/02/03 07:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

its sad how easily people can be manipulated and brainwashed.

It's luvdemshrooms. Being easily manipulated and brainwashed is his forte.




hahahaha AH AHHA HAAH AHhAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHah ah ah aH AHAHa H AHAHAHAHAHAH

... wooo that was funny


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Some are happy [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1423946 - 04/02/03 07:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Does it matter?

Don't you like the fact that some are happy? No matter why?

People should be happy. It's GOOD to be happy.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1424001 - 04/02/03 08:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I've met the people, they're really nice people. It's too bad there are many on this site that woould rather turn their backs on them.


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1424032 - 04/02/03 08:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Just curious, thats all.

And sure, it's good that they are happy, but there are always going to be peole who are angry, and those who are happy. I think in any society there are going to be people who are happy with the government's state of affairs, and those who are not. Those who are not would certainly be inclined to feel happy about the downfall of the government in hopes for a better life.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1424061 - 04/02/03 08:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There are many nice people all over the world. We cannot save or "libberate" every one, nor should we try, but things should be evaluated on a case by case basis. It shouldn't be set in stone. But also for many years it was not America's position to deal with such issues.

What bothers me is the current administration's exploitation of Iraqi suffering to justify war, and to make those who are opposed to the war feel guilty. They are no better than those who oppose the war that try to justify their cause by using innocent Iraqi deaths caused by American mistakes or equipment failure, to justify their reasons against the war.

But where do we draw the line? Can we say that the lives of one oppressed people are worth (not $) more than another, and that we can chose one group but not another? Are the lives of Iraqi citizens more important than the Chinese, or those across the African continent?


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Some are happy [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1424152 - 04/02/03 09:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

We cannot save or "libberate" every one, nor should we try,




we should ALWAYS try. But it is not always possible.

Quote:

But also for many years it was not America's position to deal with such issues




Which is great that the United States has learned not to just sit back and ignore the suffering people. It has ALWAYS been in the interest (as long as i can remember) of the United States to see that suffering is eased. A good example is how much aid we give to other countries to buy food and whatever else they need....that's before the dictators steal it of course.

Quote:

What bothers me is the current administration's exploitation of Iraqi suffering to justify war, and to make those who are opposed to the war feel guilty




There's only one person that can make you feel guilty and that is you. If you're feeling guilty about something then maybe it would be a good idea to figure out if what you believe is causing the guilt. I can honestly say that i feel no guilt about this.

Quote:

But where do we draw the line? Can we say that the lives of one oppressed people are worth (not $) more than another,




no, they're all the same and it would be good if every country followed the lead of the coalition. The coalition can only do so much, other countries should care enough for their own people no matter what their "culture" is.

Quote:

Are the lives of Iraqi citizens more important than the Chinese, or those across the African continent?




no, they are just the same. That's why we spend millions if not billions a year in aid to Africa. As for China, why not ask the government or the people of China, after all they are a part of the UN aren't they?


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1424253 - 04/02/03 09:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Are you sure you're not a Democrat? :wink:


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1424778 - 04/03/03 12:52 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It has ALWAYS been in the interest (as long as i can remember) of the United States to see that suffering is eased

And dropping bombs on people eases their suffering does it. Where do you live inny? Maybe we could drop a few thousand cruise missiles on your house to ease your suffering.

A good example is how much aid we give to other countries to buy food and whatever else they need

Like all that aid we gave to Afghanistan? And remember for every dollar we give to Africa we take 10-16 dollars back in debt repayment.

that's before the dictators steal it of course.

Yes, the dictators we arm and prop up in the first place.

That's why we spend millions if not billions a year in aid to Africa.

And take 10-16 times as much off them in debt repayment.


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1424830 - 04/03/03 01:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Are you the same guy who used to complain about how all these foreign countries whining for U.S. handouts? Now you're playing the benevolent superpower card. If there's a gun to your head, respond with a grin gremlin and I'll send my boys over.


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Re: Some are happy [Re: hongomon]
    #1425340 - 04/03/03 04:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

:grin:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1425389 - 04/03/03 05:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

That's why we spend millions if not billions a year in aid to Africa.





Do a little check on how much it costs to build and launch a few cruise missiles then compare that to how much the US gives out in aid each year. No before you ask im not going to find the links for you!


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1425456 - 04/03/03 07:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And remember for every dollar we give to Africa we take 10-16 dollars back in debt repayment.




You are so full of shit i don't know where to start. Source please.

And incase you forgot.

Alex Clause A - when asked for a source, reply it is not necessary to provide sources for common knowledge. If the "knowledge" in question is false, reply that you have no time to "spoonfeed" the questioner and that he must do his own research.

Quote:

Yes, the dictators we arm and prop up in the first place




broken record my man...

Quote:

And take 10-16 times as much off them in debt repayment.




source. See above


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Re: Some are happy [Re: hongomon]
    #1425458 - 04/03/03 07:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Are you the same guy who used to complain about how all these foreign countries whining for U.S. handouts? 




we wouldn't need to support these countries if their leaders did the job and other countries give more as well.  I'm more for charity than handouts.

Quote:

Now you're playing the benevolent superpower card. 




Facts are facts, i don't NEED to use a card when i know i'm right.

Quote:

If there's a gun to your head, respond with a grin gremlin and I'll send my boys over. 




i actually laughed out loud.

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1425523 - 04/03/03 08:21 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If there's a gun to your head, respond with a grin gremlin and I'll send my boys over.




You may have laughed out loud but it is a very salient point. Why have you changed your stance so radically. You are all out against foreign aid and the US will spend more on this war than they would on foreign aid in a year.

Hypcorisy breed hypocrisy.


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Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1425607 - 04/03/03 10:09 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You may have laughed out loud but it is a very salient point.




Not really, i took it as a comedic political jab, which i found funny.

Quote:

Why have you changed your stance so radically.




I haven't. I'm against giving countries handouts to countries that can take care of their own people but refuse to, ie: Turkey, China, etc. Why has your stance shifted? Why now don't you care about the Iraqi people?

Quote:

the US will spend more on this war than they would on foreign aid in a year.




So what? I'm sensing a little guilt from my opponents.

As for my "shift" in general, there is no shift. Like i as well as others from the "right" will agree that we have ALWAYS been for giving aid to the people who actually need it and are oppressed by their leaders, not to regimes that will horde the aid for themselves. Libbies need to actually listen to those on the opposing side from time to time, not so much for agreeing, rather just to know where WE stand.

I think i also need to note better when i'm being the devils advocate.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1425701 - 04/03/03 11:04 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You are so full of shit i don't know where to start. Source please.

In the time it took you to write that load of horseshit you could've found the information yourself. Is being cheeky to alex less scary than the truth?

As summarized by the Jubilee 2000 campaign, the World Bank's Global Finance Development 1999 publication that tracks the annual movement of international capital flows to developing countries, presents new information about the scale of the debt crisis. It shows that total debt continues to rise, despite ever-increasing payments, while aid is falling. The developing world now spends $13 on debt repayment for every $1 it receives in grants.

http://www.jubilee2000uk.org/jubilee2000/news/imf0904.html

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/Scale.asp?Print=True

http://www.episcopal-dso.org/pages/intercha/9812debt.htm

http://www.un.int/pakistan/00home09debt02.htm

That enough for you sunshine?

broken record my man...

The truth does have a tendency of being the same every time inny. That's kinda why it's known as the truth.


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1425747 - 04/03/03 11:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 quotes:

The developing world now spends $13 on debt repayment for every $1 it receives in grants.

So what? That's the difference between a loan and a gift.

One is expected to repay a loan (although vast amounts of foreign development loans are routinely forgiven), one is not expected to repay a gift. That's why they are called "loans".

All that figure shows is that roughly 8 to 10% of the money funneled to foreign aid recipients need never be repaid -- it is an outright gift. The loans of course are expected to be repaid. It should also be pointed out that these loans are made at the lowest interest rates of any loans anywhere, and are usually scheduled for repayment over a far longer term than any other loans (business loans, mortgages, personal loans, etc).

And it bears repeating that an enormous percentage of the loans are never repaid at all.

pinky


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1426369 - 04/03/03 03:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Six gremlins! It must be a six-shooter...

Yes, it was a comedic jab, but I too am surprised by what seems to be a contradiction. You're always booing the UN (to name one example) because they always want our money.

Do you have a good standard of determining which nations/organizations we should be giving aid to vs. those we shouldn't?



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1426491 - 04/03/03 04:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So what?

Are you serious? Do you think there's any purpose to giving someone 1 dollar and taking 13 dollars off him at the same time? Other than cheap publicity to convince people like you that George Bush is saving the world?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1426808 - 04/03/03 06:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1428119 - 04/04/03 07:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Are you serious? Do you think there's any purpose to giving someone 1 dollar and taking 13 dollars off him at the same time?

We have had this discussion before, and it appears you are no more capable of grasping the principles involved now than you were then. For whatever reason, the new search doesn't seem to be able to find those old posts, so let me lay it out for yet again --

Loans are loans, and are expected to be repaid. Gifts are gifts, and are not expected to be repaid. How difficult can it be to grasp the difference between the two?

The fact is that the ratio of debt repayments to gifts is actually a meaningless figure -- you might as well compare the ratio of debt repayment to GDP or inflation or unemployment or even to the opening night take of the latest movie showing in Mogadishu. Loans are loans and gifts are gifts. What purpose does it serve to compare the two? The US, for example, doesn't get any gifts, just loans, so what figure should we use to express their debt repayment to gift ratio? We could say:

"For every dollar the US receives in foreign aid, it has to repay 4 trillion dollars." That statement is every bit as accurate as the one about the African nations, and every bit as meaningless.

Other than cheap publicity to convince people like you that George Bush is saving the world?

What has this to do with George Bush? Developed nations have been supplying loans and gifts to developing nations long before Bush became president, and will continue to do so long after he is gone.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1428395 - 04/04/03 11:13 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

so let me lay it out for yet again

If it's the same "argument" you attempted last time I really wish you wouldn't bother..

Loans are loans, and are expected to be repaid

Oh dear..it is the same horseshit as last time.

The fact is that the ratio of debt repayments to gifts is actually a meaningless figure

Yes, it's just the difference between life and death. Meaningless I suppose...

What purpose does it serve to compare the two?

Let me get this right. You think it's a reasonable policy to give a poverty stricken country 1 dollar in aid, and take 13 dollars back from it? That's your proposition is it?

The US, for example, doesn't get any gifts

Well, lets try and get some reality into this discussion. A lot of the loans go straight to western corporations setting up in the country for "development" you understand. The population of the country is then left to pick up the tab for money they never saw.

Developed nations have been supplying loans and gifts to developing nations

I know. That's why they're starving.


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1428472 - 04/04/03 12:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

If it's the same "argument" you attempted last time I really wish you wouldn't bother..

I realize that you won't bother to attempt to understand it, but there are others reading this thread who do have a grasp of reason.

Let me get this right. You think it's a reasonable policy to give a poverty stricken country 1 dollar in aid, and take 13 dollars back from it? That's your proposition is it?

But that isn't what happens, Alex, and you know it. For some reason I fail to comprehend, you choose to pretend you don't. What actually happens is this:

Countries aren't given a million dollars in foreign aid (read gift) and then asked to repay 13 million. One need not repay a gift. If these countries subsisted solely on gifts, no one would ever ask them to repay a dollar, much less thirteen dollars.

What actually happens is that a country is given a million dollars in aid, and then borrows an additional eleven million or so in the form of loans. The term of the loan may be five or ten years, the principal and interest to be repaid may total 13 million. Please note these figures are approximate, and the exact figures of course depend on the interest charged and the time period for repayment. They are used merely to clarify the principle under discussion.

So it has never been a question of a country receiving a million dollars and having to repay thirteen million, it is a question of a country receiving twelve million dollars (eleven in loans plus one as a gift) and having to repay thirteen million -- if, of course, the debt isn't written off, as is often the case.

A lot of the loans go straight to western corporations setting up in the country for "development" you understand. The population of the country is then left to pick up the tab for money they never saw.

And as long as the leaders of those countries have the power to sign for loans without a plebiscite of the populace authorizing them to do so, loans will continue to be made. What's your point? Are you saying that developing nations shouldn't be loaned money?

Developed nations have been supplying loans and gifts to developing nations
I know. That's why they're starving.

Pardon me? Developing nations are starving because they receive outright gifts of cash as well as loans made under the most preferential terms available anywhere? Are you trying to say the solution for world hunger is to cut off all monetary assistance to them?

That's an odd sentiment for a Socialist to express.

pinky


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1428488 - 04/04/03 12:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

you're wasting your time ya know...


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1428616 - 04/04/03 01:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I realize that you won't bother to attempt to understand it

There really is nothing to "understand".

So it has never been a question of a country receiving a million dollars and having to repay thirteen million

It's a question of a government recieving 1 million in an attempt to feed it's people while having to pay rich countries 13 million. Where is the logic in this?

Are you saying that developing nations shouldn't be loaned money?

If the population sees any of it, yes. If it goes straight into the pockets of rich western corporations and must then be paid back by starving people, no.

Developing nations are starving because they receive outright gifts of cash as well as loans

If for every dollar you give in gift you take 13 back in debt repayment the country is going to starve. This truly isn't hard to understand.

Are you trying to say the solution for world hunger is to cut off all monetary assistance to them?

If you call "monetary assistance" giving someone 1 dollar while taking 13 back then yep, amazingly enough, the country could do very well without such "monetary assistance".

The best way would be to forget about buying off public opinon with "aid" and forget the debts the starving people, who never saw any of the "loan" in the first place have to pay.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1428710 - 04/04/03 01:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex, you need some lessons on logic and debate.


--------------------
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1428816 - 04/04/03 02:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

you're wasting your time ya know...



He knows but apparently he has a heart of gold and the patience of a saint.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1430166 - 04/04/03 11:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

There really is nothing to "understand".

Actually, there is. You must understand that a loan is not the same as a gift.

It's a question of a government recieving 1 million in an attempt to feed it's people while having to pay rich countries 13 million. Where is the logic in this?

The logic is that it is not a question of a government receiving 1 million, but 12 million. Reread the previous post with a pencil and paper at hand and do the math. Slowly.

Now note that if the country decides to take no LOANS, they don't have to repay even a single dollar, let alone 13 million dollars. There is no such thing as "gift repayment", there is only loan repayment. No loans, no repayment. It's that simple.

If the population sees any of it, yes. If it goes straight into the pockets of rich western corporations and must then be paid back by starving people, no.

And by what mechanism can the company or government providing the loan enforce this proviso?

If for every dollar you give in gift you take 13 back in debt repayment the country is going to starve. This truly isn't hard to understand.

See the above several posts for the difference between a loan and a gift.

If you call "monetary assistance" giving someone 1 dollar while taking 13 back then yep, amazingly enough, the country could do very well without such "monetary assistance".

But no one defines it that way except you. I certainly don't, nor does the source you quote. I don't know how to make this any clearer except through repetition -- they are not being given a dollar then having thirteen taken from them. They are being given a dollar for free -- no strings attached, nothing taken from them at all.

The fact that they may also choose to apply for and receive loans in addition to the gifts has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the dollars given as gifts need never be repayed. There is no connection whatsoever between the amount of money a country receives as a gift and the scheduling of loan repayments. If you take out a loan of 10 million dollars, the amount to be repaid is the same whether you receive no gifts, a million dollars worth of gifts, or 10 million dollars worth of gifts. There is quite literally no connection between the two figures. They are two entirely separate transactions.

This is why the ratio of "loan repayment to gifts received" is an absolutely meaningless figure -- there is no cause and effect at work here. That ratio quite literally has no more significance than the ratio between per capita gasoline consumption and the number of gallons of ice cream produced annually.

The best way would be to forget about buying off public opinon with "aid"...

Stop giving them gifts? Fine by me.

... and forget the debts the starving people, who never saw any of the "loan" in the first place have to pay.

First of all, despite your insistence to the countrary, not every dollar of those loans goes straight into the pockets of corrupt government officials. Irrigation projects are completed (sometimes), dams, roads, hydro plants, desalinization plants, schools and hospitals are completed (sometimes). These projects benefit the general populace of developing nations, and cannot be undertaken without foreign loans and gifts.

Secondly, not all loans are repaid through the use of taxes -- as a matter of fact, a distressingly high percentage of these loans are never repaid through any means. As for the ones which are at least partially repaid, you are of course aware that in many of these countries, the major industries are nationalized (usually resource industries such as oil and minerals) and the government repays the loans through the sales these industries realize, not through grabbing the last sack of rice from every villager.

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (04/05/03 01:27 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1430455 - 04/05/03 01:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Are you trying to deny that the net effect of giving someone 1 dollar while taking 13 off them is a 12 dollar loss?


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1430490 - 04/05/03 02:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Are you trying to deny that the net effect of giving someone 1 dollar while taking 13 off them is a 12 dollar loss?

Of course if you give someone a dollar and then take 13 off them it is a 12 dollar loss. But that is not what is happening to the countries to which you refer. One more time:

There are two completely separate transactions going on here:

1) They are being given an outright gift (foreign aid). This gift need not be repaid, no matter how large the gift may be. For every dollar they receive, they are asked to repay zero dollars, not thirteen dollars.

2) They take out loans. For every dollar they receive, they are asked to pay back that dollar plus an interest charge.

A country which accepts only foreign aid and never takes out a loan pays back nothing. Zero. Zip. Bupkes. Nada.

A country which accepts foreign aid and also takes out a loan is of course expected to pay back the loan. The amount of foreign aid they receive has no bearing whatsoever on the amount they are expected to repay on the loan -- it is completely separate and utterly irrelevant to the organization which made the loan.

pinky


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1430502 - 04/05/03 02:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So you think that if a country is starving the best thing to do is take 13 dollars from them, and then send them 1 dollar in "aid".

Are they still going to starve?

Calling it "gifts" or "loans" really is specious. People are starving. You can either buy food for them or pay off loans - most of which the people never saw a penny of.


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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1430543 - 04/05/03 02:35 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

So you think that if a country is starving the best thing to do is take 13 dollars from them, and then send them 1 dollar in "aid".

Either you honestly can't grasp simple arithmetic (in which case you have earned my pity) or you understand it perfectly well and continue to deliberately misrepresent the situation (in which case you have earned my contempt for your intellectual dishonesty); I can't be certain which is the case and to be frank I no longer care.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1430601 - 04/05/03 03:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Do you think that a country that is starving should be paying enormous loans to rich western countries or spending the money on feeding it's own people?


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Anonymous

Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1430760 - 04/05/03 05:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i think they should be paying enormous loans to rich western countries


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: ]
    #1430949 - 04/05/03 10:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Fair enough.


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