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Offlinezeronio
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Registered: 10/16/01
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396261 - 03/20/03 07:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Censorship doesn't occur when an editor chooses not to focus on or even mention a given story, it occurs when that editor is forbidden by the government to mention a given story.




You're trying to close both eyes on what's going on. Of course the government does not directly forbid publishing of certain stories. The method of censorship used in USA is much more sophisticated and effective. The media that would not act in a patriotic way would quickly loose its advertisers.
I had the opportunity to follow media in a communist country that had "verbal delict" laws and I can assure you that journalists were always provocating authority anyway. The media were never so biased like the shit I see now. BTW I had the opportunity to watch CNN & Iraq TV at the beginning of this war but closing Iraq TV channels on the satellites was one of the priorities of the war pigs.  :smirk: 


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: zeronio]
    #1396304 - 03/20/03 07:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Zeronio writes:

The method of censorship used in USA is much more sophisticated and effective. The media that would not act in a patriotic way would quickly loose its advertisers.

I understand what you are trying to say, but that is not "censorship", it is marketing.

Each publisher targets a specific market segment. Any businessman with half a brain knows that you can't be "all things to all people". Depending which market segment your paper best addresses, a given advertiser may or may not choose to run an ad in your paper.

pinky


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396321 - 03/20/03 07:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's not about the target audience. The advertisers don't withdraw their ads because the media wouldn't get enough audience but because it's acting in a non-patriotic way. So that's a real censorship.
A good example is what happened to French. Are French wines not good enough or are they being poured down the drains because French government opposed the USA? That's a very good way for silencing the opposition. The advertisers unfortunately don't act according to the market and profit but like those who destroy good french wines for nothing.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Some are happy [Re: zeronio]
    #1396344 - 03/20/03 08:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What is wrong with people expressing their desires with economic choices? Would you be equally against commercial decisions designed to stop the slaughter of whales? Would you be equally against companies who withdrew their ads so their expenditures would not benefit from the destruction of the Amazonian rainforest? Economic choices can be a form of free speech, of free expression. It's called LIBERTY.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: zeronio]
    #1396373 - 03/20/03 08:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

zeronio writes:

It's not about the target audience. The advertisers don't withdraw their ads because the media wouldn't get enough audience but because it's acting in a non-patriotic way. So that's a real censorship.

You still don't get it. An advertiser can withdraw his ads at any time for any reason. Some advertisers have withdrawn ads from magazines that showed what they considered to be excessive nudity, and they didn't want their product associated with such an image. Others withdraw not because the paper or magazine has done anything wrong at all, but because they themselves are attempting to change their target market. Still others (and these are very rare) actually have principles that matter more to them than profitability, and will withdraw their ads from any publication that offends their standards (whether those standards relate to religion, obscenity, patriotism or whatever) even if it means they will suffer financially from the lost advertising exposure.

None of the above reasons has anything to do with censorship.

Are French wines not good enough or are they being poured down the drains because French government opposed the USA?

Wait a minute. Just as an advertiser chooses which magazine in which to advertise, so also do the magazines choose which ads they will accept. If a magazine publisher decides to drop advertising from French winemakers, how is that censorship?

pinky


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396429 - 03/20/03 08:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Would you be equally against commercial decisions designed to stop the slaughter of whales? Would you be equally against companies who withdrew their ads so their expenditures would not benefit from the destruction of the Amazonian rainforest?





OK you got me on that. (Here's an interesting site that started a campaign that I don't agree with: Boycott brand America)

So it is normal that the companies withdraw their ads from the media that criticizes or goes agains their moral standards. But the effect they achieve is quite similar to the censorship in totalitarian regimes. I guess it is impossible to criticize Saddam in Iraq because it is against official moral standards. If you're a journalist and you disagree with the prevailing thinking then you're in trouble in any case.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1396524 - 03/20/03 10:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

On the peace march in London I saw plenty of Iraqis protesting the war. Of course im lying though arent I?


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396530 - 03/20/03 10:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

None of the above reasons has anything to do with censorship.

Pink, this sounds like another one of your 2 minute google specials.

How does the media make money? By selling advertising space to advertisers. Their aim is to deliver a market for advertisers. The largest and most profitable advertising revenues are available to those media sources that appeal to the well-off. You are not going to get advertisers queing up to advertise in newspapers publishing news stories that appeal to starving africans and the poor. Why? Because you sell more selling to people who have money. Get it?

You often don't need "censorship". By the time the editors reach positions of power they have learned the rules and follow them to the letter. The bottom line is profits.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1396533 - 03/20/03 10:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

To balance the piece they could interview Iraqis who are against the war. Otherwise it is propaganda not reporting as Im sure you would agree.


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1396539 - 03/20/03 10:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The largest and most profitable advertising revenues are available to those media sources that appeal to the well-off.


I'm really confused. You are saying that the media makes the most money off the advertisments that target rich people?

It doesn't work that way, the way it works is the media (networks) set commercial slot prices based on the show that is being broadcast. The higher the ratings, the higher the slot prices, hence the exorbanent amount for a commercial during the Super Bowl.

The media couldn't give two fucks who was advertising during their shows, as long as they got the money.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1396547 - 03/20/03 10:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

On the peace march in London I saw plenty of Iraqis protesting the war. Of course im lying though arent I?



Why would that make you a liar? I have little doubt there are many, there are also many who will welcome the sight of troops.

As in most things, there are two sides. The article doesn't claim every Iraqi will be glad.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1396615 - 03/21/03 12:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

As in most things, there are two sides. The article doesn't claim every Iraqi will be glad.




There are many who will think that it does mean every Iraqi is glad.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1396687 - 03/21/03 01:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Iraqi's want saddam out....


Thousands of Iraqis Want to Fight Saddam
NewsMax.com Wires
Wednesday, Dec. 11, 2002
WASHINGTON &#8211; Thousands of expatriate Iraqis all over the world have expressed interest in a U.S. program to train them for fighting Saddam Hussein, the State Department said Tuesday.
President Bush on Monday authorized using $92 million for providing military training and facilities to Iraqi opposition groups.

The money is given under a law passed by Congress in 1998. Under this law, Congress had authorized $97 million. The U.S. administration had already allocated $5 million for funding Iraqi opposition groups, of which about a million had already been spent.

In the past two years, the Department of Defense, which oversees this program, trained 140 Iraqi opposition members under the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998.

But this year the Bush administration decided to expand the program and asked Iraqi opposition groups to send a list of their members available for training.

'Gratified With the Response'

"We're quite gratified with the response we had under that," said State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker. "Thousands of expatriate Iraqis all over the world have expressed an interest in participating."

Reeker rejected reports that Washington has asked the opposition Iraqi National Congress to be the sole intermediary for assistance to other groups.

"Under the plan as I understand ... each group is going to coordinate with the Department of Defense through a committee made up of representatives of a number of groups," said Reeker.

Besides INC, he said, Kurdish Democratic Party, Movement for Constitutional Monarchy, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq are designated under the Iraq Liberation Act.

Most of these groups have been working with the United States for some time, but the Iran-based SCIRI is a new addition to the list.

United Press International reported Monday that the Bush administration has approved military funding for six Iraqi opposition groups, including an Iran-based organization that maintains close ties to that country's hard-line Islamic clerical leadership.

The group, known as Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or SCIRI, is an umbrella for Shia Islamist groups including some that have in the past coordinated activities with Iran's intelligence services. The group maintains an office in Tehran that is paid for by the Iranian government.

Under an order signed by Bush on Saturday, SCIRI and five other Iraqi opposition groups would be eligible for $92 million worth of military training and defense articles from the Pentagon, authorized by the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act.

"The Iranians have allowed SCIRI to take some positions different than the government. That said the group is never going to go against Iranian policy, and is dependent on Iranian financial and logistical support," Patrick Clawson, the deputy director of Washington Institute for Near East Policy, told UPI.

Copyright 2002 by United Press International.

All rights reserved.

Thousands of Iraqis Want to Fight Saddam


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1396694 - 03/21/03 01:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Oh my it must be true!


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
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Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1396716 - 03/21/03 01:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

great rebutle, keep up the good work little buddy.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1397104 - 03/21/03 04:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

Oh my it must be true!

See, here we have a prime example of the close-mindedness so often exhibited by the ideologues (on BOTH sides). No attempt to refute, no attempt to impeach the source -- merely a kneejerk reaction that since it opposes their own beliefs, it must be a lie.

Why is it so impossible to believe that many expatriate Iraqis would like to change the current Iraqi regime, and even willing to fight to do so? This is undeniably the case with expatriates of other totalitarian regimes (Cubans and Haitians being the two I am most familiar with, but there are certainly more), some of whom have behaved more mildly than Hussein has.

Does this mean that ALL expatriate Iraqis have this same fervor? Of course not. But to say that NONE have is to wilfully evade reality.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1397119 - 03/21/03 04:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


See, here we have a prime example of the close-mindedness so often exhibited by the ideologues (on BOTH sides). No attempt to refute, no attempt to impeach the source -- merely a kneejerk reaction that since it opposes their own beliefs, it must be a lie.




Get off your high horse. And where did I say it was a lie? Sloppy thinking Sharkboy.


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Always Smi2le


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1397139 - 03/21/03 04:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

You often don't need "censorship". By the time the editors reach positions of power they have learned the rules and follow them to the letter. The bottom line is profits.

Precisely my point. There is no censorship because usually none is needed. The selection of stories is not determined or prohibited by the government, but by the market.

Rhizo's original assertion was "...the US news media is already heavily censored."

In actual fact, it is not.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: GazzBut]
    #1397173 - 03/21/03 04:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

And where did I say it was a lie?

Ah, I misunderstood. My apologies. Normally an arch comment such as "Oh my it must be true!" would be construed as a sarcastic response, particularly when the participants in a debate are all well aware of each others' prior stance on the issue.

If your comment was neither sarcastic nor facetious, then it must be taken at its face value, and you believe the report posted was accurate. Do you believe it is accurate? If you do, then let me be the first to congratulate you on your conversion.

pinky



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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1397452 - 03/21/03 06:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LoOnEr writes:

this kind of stuff disgusts me, its specifically targetted to produce warm feelings and have people think "wow, we really are doing something right".

So you are in favor of censoring the news media.

pinky




Pinky, does nothing you see coming out of the media disgust you (or anger, disturb, etc)? Considering the wide variety of material, I'd say there's a chance. Does that mean you favor censoring it?

Tobacco disgusts me, but I'm not in favor of making it illegal.


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