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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: flow]
    #1391209 -

it comes down to personal responsibility and freedom. if corporations are out selling hard drugs, just say no if you don't want to use them. with the exception of crack, cigarettes are the most addictive drug delivery system known to man... yet the vast majority of people stay away from them. for those who don't... it's their fault, not the cigarette companies. the cigarette companies are selling something that people want to buy. no amount of advertizing can force a person to start smoking.

anything can be addictive. we aren't out banning video games because some people spend an unhealthy amount of time playing them...

tobacco companies did not do anything to make cigarettes addictive. people were hand rolling their own very addictive cigarettes long before anyone got the idea to mass-produce them.

if someone wants to buy heroin, and someone else wants to sell it... there shouldn't be anything illegal about that transaction.

no one would FORCE you to use drugs. but under prohibition, they FORCE you NOT to use drugs.

and i do get very sick of people who continue to point their fingers at the tobacco companies as if these companies are evil... PEOPLE ARE BUYING CIGARETTES BECAUSE THEY WANT THEM!!!. all these companies do is supply people with something they want.

Edited by mushmaster (03/19/03 09:53 AM)

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: ]
    #1391246 -

Quote:
tobacco companies did not do anything to make cigarettes addictive.


ummm...what?? what about adding nicotine? What about lying to the american public for years about how cigarettes are not harmful or addictive? My point really is that a hand-rolled pure tobacco cigarette is a lot less harmful than those sold by the tobacco companies, whose to say the same thing won't happen with other drugs.
Quote:
if someone wants to buy heroin, and someone else wants to sell it... there shouldn't be anything illegal about that transaction.



true, although it is immoral to sell something that is addictive, in a perfect world this shouldn't be illegal, but we don't live in a perfect world. Can you seriously say that legalizing crack and herion wouldn't cause huge problems?
Quote:
no one would FORCE you to use drugs. but under prohibition, they FORCE you NOT to use drugs.


not really, pretty much everyone i know gets high whenever they want to, all prohibition does is drive the price way up. I just bought a bag of herb that's literally worth its weight gold. They don't force you to do anything, the just make you disobey the law. It's like saying "i was forced to jaywalk because their isn't a crosswalk in the middle of the street."

Edited by flow (03/19/03 10:04 AM)

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: flow]
    #1391278 -

You don't believe in freedom, do you?

Sorry, but I'm an adult and I can make my own decisions about what to put in my body. Any prohibition on the consumption or use of substances should only apply to minors or anyone who sucks from the teat of the nanny state.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (03/19/03 10:11 AM)

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: Evolving]
    #1391321 -

of course i believe in freedom, but im a realist, not an idealist. Is it really difficult for a minor to get alcohol in the US now? No. If crack was legal a minor would only need to find an irresponsible crack head adult to buy it for them. Can't you see that this is a huge problem with a substance like crack where arguably almost everyone who uses it is addicted?? And i wasn't really saying it should be illegal, i was saying it should be illegal to sell. that is not violating anyones freedom except those who would wish to profit from the hopless addiction of a fellow human being.

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: flow]
    #1391342 -

ummm...what?? what about adding nicotine?

the tobacco plant contains nicotine. nicotine is not synthesized by cigarette companies and added to their cigs. even if it was... it's only because people want it. there are still 'lite' and even 'ultra lite' cigarettes available.

What about lying to the american public for years about how cigarettes are not harmful or addictive?

that was wrong and they should be held accountable for it. however, for years, it has been common public knowledge that cigarettes are harmful and addictive. cigarette companies are even forced to say so on the pack (for those of us that didn't know). people still choose to smoke.

My point really is that a hand-rolled pure tobacco cigarette is a lot less harmful than those sold by the tobacco companies

some additives are put in cigarettes to enhance their shelf-life or flavor. again... people buy them because they want to. for those who prefer it, there are additive free cigarettes available on the market, and it's still possible to roll your own.

whose to say the same thing won't happen with other drugs.

i'm quite sure that it would. there would be marijuana cigarettes with the said additives in them. i wouldn't buy them though. neither would you (unless you wanted to). we'd buy the additive free ones. or more likely grow our own. (or at least roll our own).

true, although it is immoral to sell something that is addictive

you should take that over to S+P rather than stating it as an ultimate truth. i disagree.

not really, pretty much everyone i know gets high whenever they want to, all prohibition does is drive the price way up. I just bought a bag of herb that's literally worth its weight gold. They don't force you to do anything, the just make you disobey the law. It's like saying "i was forced to jaywalk because their isn't a crosswalk in the middle of the street."

there is a threat of force. so far, you've been lucky (or smart) enough to avoid it. thousands of people have not been so lucky, and are currently unjustly imprisoned.

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: flow]
    #1391355 -

If crack was legal a minor would only need to find an irresponsible crack head adult to buy it for them.

in which case the crackhead should be prosecuted and not be allowed to buy crack anymore.

Can't you see that this is a huge problem with a substance like crack where arguably almost everyone who uses it is addicted??

no. i think most people know well enough to stay away from crack. crack is used by poor people who can't afford cocaine. if not for the black market, there would be no crack.

And i wasn't really saying it should be illegal, i was saying it should be illegal to sell.

so that while use is legal, users are forced to support an illegal market, and although it's legal to buy, those who sell it are criminals?

that is not violating anyones freedom except those who would wish to profit from the hopless addiction of a fellow human being.

immoral perhaps, but shouldn't be illegal.

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: flow]
    #1391378 -

Quote:
of course i believe in freedom, but im a realist, not an idealist.


A realist would realize that prohibition doesn't work.

Quote:
Is it really difficult for a minor to get alcohol in the US now? No. If crack was legal a minor would only need to find an irresponsible crack head adult to buy it for them.


It my experiences as a minor and on the streets of many places in the L.A. area, it's easier for a minor to get illegal substances than it is for to get legal ones.

Quote:
Can't you see that this is a huge problem with a substance like crack where arguably almost everyone who uses it is addicted??


Crack is illegal NOW, people are addicted to it NOW, the laws aren't working NOW.

Quote:
And i wasn't really saying it should be illegal, i was saying it should be illegal to sell. that is not violating anyones freedom except those who would wish to profit from the hopless addiction of a fellow human being.


Check your premises. If it is illegal to sell, that means it is illegal to buy, you are violating peoples freedom by making it illegal to sell. MANY people use drugs without becoming addicted. MANY people sell drugs just so they can survive economically. How do you determine which sellers "wish to profit from the hopless addiction of a fellow human being?"


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: Evolving]
    #1391402 -

I think the "war on drugs" has a much larger impact on the egos of drug-users than many realize. That's all I've got on this topic for now :wink:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: flow]
    #1391460 -

Quote:
Is it really difficult for a minor to get alcohol in the US now? No. If crack was legal a minor would only need to find an irresponsible crack head adult to buy it for them.


Back when I first started high school it was far easier for me to get most drugs than it was alcohol. Dealers don't card.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1391471 -

I agree.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1391478 -

ah... i'll be the third *edit- 4th* to testify that it was always easier to get illegal drugs than alcohol as a minor.

Edited by mushmaster (03/19/03 11:15 AM)

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: ]
    #1391871 -

I'm assuming I'm a bit younger than you guys (I'm being packed off to college). The transactions that I see the most are those involving prescription drugs (ironic). This new fad appropriately reflects the "Prozac Generation". I'd say marijuana and alcohol are just as easy to find and buy.

As for the "War on Drugs", my thoughts can be best represented by another Bill Hicks quote: "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom". The notion that our government tells us what we can and cannot put into OUR own bodies enrages me.


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: ]
    #1391884 -

I cast my vote for non-prohibition. But would anyone in their right mind say there should be NO regulation? Here are some types of regulation that exist for legal drugs:

(I'm not saying I support all of these. Some I do, some I don't, some I'm not sure)

Alcohol
legal drinking age
midnight last purchase
liquor license requirements
surgeon general warnings on label

Tobacco
legal smoking age
advertising restrictions (no TV ads)
surgeon general warnings on label
tobacco tax

Prescription drugs (morphine, xanax, etc.)
prescription required

This is just off the top of my head, so I may have missed some. So, what, if any, regulations might be justified for cocaine, marijuana, heroin, etc.?

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: hongomon]
    #1391948 -

Quote:
So, what, if any, regulations might be justified for cocaine, marijuana, heroin, etc.?



My suggestions:

Marijuana
Must be 18 to buy
Surgeon General's Warning
Must have license to sell
Must meet certain FDA standards for purity

Cocaine
Must be 18 to buy
Surgeon General's Warning
Cannot advertise on T.V.
Must have license to sell/manufacture
Must meet certain FDA standards for purity
Cocaine tax

Ecstacy
Must be 18 to buy
Surgeon General's Warning
Cannot advertise on T.V.
Must have license to sell/manufacture
Must meet certain FDA standards for purity
MDMA tax

LSD
Must be 18 to buy
Surgeon General's Warning
Must have license to sell/manufacture
Must meet certain FDA standards for purity

Shrooms and Mescaline
Must be 18 to buy
Surgeon General's Warning
Must have license to sell
Must meet certain FDA standards for purity

DMT
Must be 18 to buy
Surgeon General's Warning
Must have license to sell/manufacture
Must meet certain FDA standards for purity

Ketamine
Must be 18 to buy
Surgeon General's Warning
Cannot advertise on T.V.
Must have license to sell
Must meet certain FDA standards for purity

Heroin and other Opiates
Must be 18 to buy
Surgeon General's Warning
Cannot advertise on T.V.
Must have license to sell/manufacture
Must meet certain FDA standards for purity
Opiate tax


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (03/19/03 01:51 PM)

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1391965 -

I like this idea, but what becomes of the prescription drug system? Do all prescription drugs(benzos, opiates, etc.) become available to people over 18? I'd like to see it happen, but then we're pissing off(taking power away from them) the FDA in addition to the DEA(evil drones)...all these fucking agencies, reminds me of the movie Brazil


--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: hongomon]
    #1391975 -

doesn't it seem odd to you that morphine should be regulated but not heroin?

the only restrictions i would place on drugs would be that you'd have to be 18 to buy them. that and 'commercial' production and sales would have to meet some kind of purity standards enforced by the FDA.

Edited by mushmaster (03/19/03 01:59 PM)

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: Evolving]
    #1391991 -

Quote:
A realist would realize that prohibition doesn't work.



Nuff said. ... however, I must continue. Prohibition: did it work with alcohol? No, why? In part because it created a violent black market. Prohibition against other substances creates, in part, a dangerous black market as well.

The main part: Can human will, or desire, be legislated? In the end, no.


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: ]
    #1392155 -

Quote:
doesn't it seem odd to you that morphine should be regulated but not heroin?


To clarify, I'm pro-legalization and pro-regulation of all drugs (in the commercial sense--if it can be grown/consumed at home it shouldn't be anyone else's business).  Something similar to what Silversoul wrote would be a good start.

It's all interesting to discuss, though of course, we all know how far we are from this being anything more than a pipedream.

:mad: 

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: hongomon]
    #1392206 -

Pipedream?
As in hash pipe?
As in crack pipe?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (03/19/03 03:13 PM)

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Re: anyone here support the drug war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1392236 -

Quote:
I like this idea, but what becomes of the prescription drug system?


All prescrips become available for people over 18. You have to have a prescription if you're under 18.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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